Ship Behaviour Under Bare Poles Is Unrealistic

[Portsdown]

Ref. recovering anchors. Cutting away your anchor in battle or emergency was a recognised practice. Ships had several anchors and whilst they didn't like dropping them they did at need. If time and circumstances allowed they would bouy them but if not 'dragging for an anchor' was a recognised procedure.

Making ships wait to recover them before moving off would be highly unrealistic.

Fighting from a stationary position was also a recognised procedure. It was done at anchor, with a spring to the anchor to allow the ship to be pointed exactly. It was sufficiently common that there was a specific signal for it in the code book. The only problem with that tactic is that you needed the water to be shallow enough for the anchor to be usable - vessels have never carried cables of infinite length!

That last also rules out making a ship under Bare Poles anchor if you want to be realistic. Unless you are in reasonably shallow waters it would be simply impossible.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Portsdown

[Baggywrinkle]

 Vessels lying ahull will not sit head to wind, they will not "present their narrowest aspect". Quite the reverse - they lie beam-on, or even slightly deeper. Hence the rolling.

 

This is true of fin-keeled bermudan sloops, 19th Century long keeled gaffers, 18th Century ships etc. Vessels 'wearthcock' only when there is something aft to blow the stern away from the wind (like the mizzen on a 'modern' ketch or yawl), and so keep the bow up into it. If anyone has sources on whether a spanker was enough for that it'd be interesting to hear. I don't recall, off the top of my head, seeing ships lying to their anchors with the spanker set in period paintings/sketches.

 

In game - let vessels with no canvas lie beam on to the breeze and roll their guts out, should make sniping more difficult However, as warships were used as temporary floating forts it would be nice to have them lie to the wind when anchored, and have the ability to rig an anchor spring to alter how she lies by up to c.180degrees. Time penalties for both processes, of course.

 

Baggy

[Portsdown]

If anyone has sources on whether a spanker was enough for that it'd be interesting to hear.

I will check 'Seamanship in the Age of Sail' for info on this subject late tonight when I get in from work. I must say that lying to would be much more stable than bare poles however.

[Crankey]

Wind, sea state and or current would exert pressure against the surface of the vessel. A combination of the strength of these factors combined with the surface area and shape of the vessel (Sails set etc) would determine how that vessel would drift and turn.

 

In a gale / storm force wind, ships could run under spars only, so no sail set, or at the most a 'corner' of a sail deployed to keep steerage.

 

While we enjoy different sea states in game atm, I don't believe we have the effects of different strength wind on the ships exposed surfaces or potential danger to the rigging if too many sails are deployed.

 

I don't believe current exists in the game and the sea state which when heavy should have a pressure against the hull in reality, I think merely produces the ships 'bobbing up and down' and blocking cannon balls when fired into a raised wall of water. A large wave hitting the bow of a ship from either beam doesn't seem to exert any sideways pressure which would require additional steering to compensate for.

 

So I think we have to wait and see what is practical for the Devs to put into the game and we can then work on relative effets on the vessels.

 

Could a ship turn without sails set. Not without some form of pressure, provided by wind, sails, oars, anchor lines, current etc.

[Thomas Cochrane]

Ref. recovering anchors. Cutting away your anchor in battle or emergency was a recognised practice. Ships had several anchors and whilst they didn't like dropping them they did at need. If time and circumstances allowed they would bouy them but if not 'dragging for an anchor' was a recognised procedure.

Making ships wait to recover them before moving off would be highly unrealistic.

Fighting from a stationary position was also a recognised procedure. It was done at anchor, with a spring to the anchor to allow the ship to be pointed exactly. It was sufficiently common that there was a specific signal for it in the code book. The only problem with that tactic is that you needed the water to be shallow enough for the anchor to be usable - vessels have never carried cables of infinite length!

That last also rules out making a ship under Bare Poles anchor if you want to be realistic. Unless you are in reasonably shallow waters it would be simply impossible.

 

Interesting. In real life if you foul and anchor and have to cut the line you might leave a fender floating there so you can come back later and try to retrieve it. This might be an option in those days too, for example using a barrel to mark the location. So if you can run to fight in game you wouldn't necessarily lose the anchor, you might come back and get it later. Obviously this depends on the size of the ship because it's one thing to hold modern chain and rope with a fender, the chain and rope in those days probably weighted a lot more. Assuming they also used a mixture of chain (for the weight where its needed at the bottom) and the rope then it the only thing the float would have to support would be the length of the rope measuring the length o the water depth (obviously the chain/rope combo would be much much longer, but most of it would lie on the seabed and not pulling down on the float). 

[Yankee jack]

No chain in those days.  Just wicked large, grubby rope and a very big anchor (compared to today).  

 

When battle was imminent, retrieving the anchor later was the least of their worries.  (A SOL carried 5.)

 

 

Fighting at anchor frowned on and was usually because of surprise.   Or if you were under the guns of a fort or in a very protected position.  Maneuverability was lost at anchor.

[maturin]

 

If anyone has sources on whether a spanker was enough for that it'd be interesting to hear.

You can lie to under a reefed spanker in a storm.

 

And of course plenty of diesel-powered lobster boats around here set a tiny little marconi mizzen to make the boat lie quietly at anchor.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Interesting. In real life if you foul and anchor and have to cut the line you might leave a fender floating there so you can come back later and try to retrieve it. This might be an option in those days too, for example using a barrel to mark the location. So if you can run to fight in game you wouldn't necessarily lose the anchor, you might come back and get it later. Obviously this depends on the size of the ship because it's one thing to hold modern chain and rope with a fender, the chain and rope in those days probably weighted a lot more. Assuming they also used a mixture of chain (for the weight where its needed at the bottom) and the rope then it the only thing the float would have to support would be the length of the rope measuring the length o the water depth (obviously the chain/rope combo would be much much longer, but most of it would lie on the seabed and not pulling down on the float). 

 

While he's not an authoritative expert, O'Brian references buoying the anchor cable and slipping it.  As you've mentioned, you don't need to hold up the anchor itself with the buoy, just the length of cable that is coming up from the bottom.  You could use empty casks or other items on board to do this pretty easily as long as you were in extremely deep water I would think.

[Portsdown]

While he's not an authoritative expert, O'Brian references buoying the anchor cable and slipping it.

Don't underate POB. He was invited to speak at learned conferences and was thought of highly by Colin White, late lamented head of the Royal Naval Museam. On the POB email list, which houses a fair few 'learned coves', including, until 2005, Colin White, it was very rare indeed to find 'the Master Nodding' while I was there. He practically lived his era.

I will, nevertheless, double check in 'Seamanship' (in a few hours)

[Portsdown]

I have the 1799 RN Signal Book with me on my Tablet.

Signal 128 'Particular ships to cut or slip and chase (leaving a bouy upon the cable) in the Direction by Compass signal denoted. If for the whole Fleet to do the same, two Guns will be fired herewith.'

I think that settles it for it being historical to bouy the cable when cutting or slipping your (anchor) cable.

[Crankey]

You wouldn't generally anchor mid ocean. Unless you were a mortar vessel or somehow blockading a channel in relatively shallow waters it would be very unlikely a ship would anchor.

 

"Sir I have this really good idea for bringing our other broadside to bear in seconds..... "No bottom zir"  damn ! scratch that sir my mistake"

 

Apart from anything else, it all took time if you were attaching springs and manouvring your vessel this way. A glorious waste of time for our normal battle occasions I imagine.

 

The glamorous manouvres often read in semi fictional novels of dropping an anchor out of the opposite beam to bring the head round in an emergency manouvre would be an extremely risky manouvre for the ship and I imagine occasions during battle when this ocurred were extremely rare in several hundred years of sailing men of war.

 

"Thank god all the masts are still standing, we havent broached too, and we can now give that enemy ship a good old double shot and grape to finish it off what ! jolly good show sir I give you joy of your victory"

 

 

You would anchor to shelter from a storm in the lee of a landmass, or when in a harbour or natural bay. If you had to leave your safe anchorage in a hurry then slipping your anchor etc was a viable manouvre.

 

Would we see it or need to use it in game is debatable but I guess that is what this thread is about.(Partially)

Edited February 16, 2015 by Crankey

[maturin]

I think you're overstating the case, Crankey. Fleets fought at anchor all the time, albeit only when in the shelter of some landmass that prevented them from being flanked. To fight in harbor under sail was just asking to run aground or afoul of each other.

[Portsdown]

<Intermission> <Off Topic>

 

Well, I can't find my copy of 'Seamanship'. I can find a book on a load of seamanlike and unseamalike knots, 'The Wooden World' and 'The Command of the Ocean' but not 'Seamanship'.

 

I live on a boat and she is currently undergoing a long term refit so a lot of my stuff is in storage. My parents will go and have a rummage through the boxes of books for me tomorrow. If not I will have to buy a new one - no massive loss as my copy was badly water damaged a few years ago.

 

I can't really recommend Harlands 'Seamanship in the Age of Sail' enough to those who can spare the requisite number of Guineas and have a deep interest in this subject. 'The Wooden World' and 'The Command of the Ocean', both by N A M Rodgers, are much cheaper and great for the organisational side of this period, if you don't have them already.

 

</Off Topic> </Intermission>

[Portsdown]

The glamorous manouvres often read in semi fictional novels of dropping an anchor out of the opposite beam to bring the head round in an emergency manouvre would be an extremely risky manouvre for the ship and I imagine occasions during battle when this ocurred were extremely rare in several hundred years of sailing men of war.

 

From my memory of 'Seamanship' you are pretty much correct. One such manoeuvre was known to have been attempted only once, and it succeeded spectacularly. Another manoeuvre, used in his books by POB, seems to have been discussed as a theoretical possibility, however nobody ended up in a desperate enough situation under the right conditions to try it.

 

However one manoeuvre, Club Hauling, was a recognised way of getting off a Lee Shore. Here is the description from a document 'General Principals of Working a Ship' from the 'New Practical Navigator', 1814:

 

This method of going about is resorted to when on a lee shore, and the vessel can neither be tacked nor box-hauled. Cock-bill you lee-anchor, get a hawser on it for a spring, and lead it to the lee-quarter; range your cable, and unshackle it abaft the windlass. Helm a-lee! and Raise tacks and sheets! as for going in stays. The moment she loses headway, let go the anchor and Mainsail haul! As soon as the anchor brings her head to the wind, let the chain cable go, holding on to the spring; and when the after sails take full, cast off or cut the spring, and Let go and haul!

Edited February 16, 2015 by Portsdown

[maturin]

And you can swivel quite easily while anchored by putting a spring on your cable. This is a downright banal maneuver.

 

We once used it to watched 4th of July fireworks without having the rigging in the way as the tide swung us bow-on to the display.

 

...and then the pile of pallets they mounted the mortars on caught fire and we had fireworks exploding ten feet off the ground and shooting up at random, with the crew walking around the blaze in Hurt Locker suits.

 

I digress.