Scandalising Sails

[Thomas Cochrane]

I don't know if this has been suggested before I'd like to see a possibility for scandalising sails. This is a means of  reducing them very fast in a quick and dirty way. 

 

Having scandalised a sail is should take much longer to correct to the rig and get moving again.

 

This could be used as a sudden stopping measure with a cost  : it takes longer to get going as well.

 

Two types of scandalizing I've seen in real life, both on a fore and aft rigged vessel:

 

1) you can release the kicker and sharply tighten the topping lift so that the boom lifts up fast, say up to 45 degree so the mainsail becomes baggy and loses wind. This is especially effective when closehauled because it completely removes the aerofoil effect of the sail. On a reach or a run it is less effective because the sail will still bag some air.

 

2) The jib sheet can also be let fly, so that the sail is only attached at the tack and the head. This will instantly stop any force acting on the vessel from the foresail, regardless of the point of sail. 

 

I understand that similar methods exist for square rigged ships - maybe a better sailor than I could confirm this?

 

Id loveit if it would be possible to manually raise the boom as well as to be able release the clew for both the main sails and the jibs. to lose all way very quickly. Then there should be a time penalty for reattaching them/bringing the sail back under control. 

[ThePandanator2]

Here I was thinking you wanted adult images on the sails

 

But one a serious note, sounds like a good thing to be added. 

[Thomas Cochrane]

Here I was thinking you wanted adult images on the sails

 

But one a serious note, sounds like a good thing to be added. 

 

Hahaha I didn't think of that. The thread title is deceptively interesting 

[Sharden]

Here I was thinking you wanted adult images on the sails

 

But one a serious note, sounds like a good thing to be added. 

 

and his username feeds that expectation even more

 

besides that, i kinda like the idea

[Jher]

This sounds good, many a situation I've already been in, in which this could have been very handy

[SirWili]

Naah. The sail control is pretty much instant as it is now. No need to turboboost it, since it takes around 5 secs to fully raise or lower your sails. All of them. If it would be made slower, then maybe.

[StaleMemes]

I've noticed a trick you can use to lose some speed quickly, use manual skipper to turn the sails parallel to the wind. This does not stop the sails that are rigged between the masts/bowsprit, but it is very useful if you are listing because of the wind and need to fire without lowering sails. 

[Tom Pullings]

I don't know, but I would suspect that on a square-rigged ship, simply handling the yards would accomplish much the same thing, which, as Aerobane points out, we can already do.  The wind will still have an effect on fore and aft sails, such as staysails or the spanker, but unless the wind is just abaft the beam, it won't add to forward momentum much.  

[Baggywrinkle]

In my experience, scandalising as a practical technique is a gaff thing. 

 

To drop the peak and trice up the tack (either or both) depowers the sail very effectively, very easily (requiring few hands), and very quickly (the sail loses drive quickly, not necessarily the boat stops quickly). It is used to lose speed to make a safe approach to a 'permanent' stop (coming alongside, anchoring), or proceeding at a slow speed (tricing tack only, also has the benefit of drastically improving visibility from the helm - both very useful traits when in confined waters of a dock or river). Having dropped the peak, it requires an awful lot of effort to hoist it again, hence was not to my knowledge or experience done in passing; tricing the tack has a lower average workload, but would still not be done lightly. Scandalising  is not used to pause somewhere. For that one would heave to.

 

pi

 

Here you can see lots of cool things, including a scandalised main and mizzen.  From back to front: the mizzen has been oversheeted, to bring the head of the vessel up round the end of the pontoon, then well scandalised to depower it; the main has been trimmed, to provide decent power, and is then being scandalised to reduce that power on the final approach; the staysail has been backed to lay her parallel to the pontoon; the jib is still set fair (to keep power on), but is probably about to be let fly. This is a typical use of scandalising - seeing a similar sail set at sea would not be typical at all.

 

On square rig it is also not used at sea (again in my experience, would be happy to stand corrected). To scandalise yards is to hoist one end/lower the other so they do not hang horizontal. Also known as hanging a-cockbill (which itself also has a similar meaning referring to anchors, but that is not helpful here). Used as a sign of mourning, not used to control sail trim.

 

 

Unless the focus on fore-and-aft rigged craft is increased, sailing physics sharpened further and some sort of mooring/anchoring mini-game type thing created, I cannot see it being worth anyone's time to code or use scandalising in NA...sorry! I would love to see all three of the above, but now might not be the time...

 

Baggy

[Brigand]

(...)Having dropped the peak, it requires an awful lot of effort to hoist it again, (...)

Whould the use of brailing lines lessen the amount of effort required to re-set the gaff sail?

~Brigand

[maturin]

Whould the use of brailing lines lessen the amount of effort required to re-set the gaff sail?

~Brigand

You mean brailing up instead of scandalizing?

On square rig it is also not used at sea (again in my experience, would be happy to stand corrected). To scandalise yards is to hoist one end/lower the other so they do not hang horizontal. Also known as hanging a-cockbill

This is not the usage I've read about. Scandalizing a square sail AFAIK means simply lowering the yard to the cap, without hauling on the clewlines and bunt lines. This gets you an extremely baggy sail, billowing forward.

I imagine that this created an ungodly mess, on the wind. It was often done when sailing dead downwind, however, as a way to get a bit of drive out of the mizzen topsail without blanketing the maintopsail.

And if you look at old battle paintings, you will almost always see ships carrying clewed-up courses, topsails and scandalized t'gallants. So in this case it was indeed a means of controlling speed. I'm not sure why it was preferable to just clewing up. Maybe it was slightly faster.

But I think the fastest emergency stop procedure, before the wind, would be to let fly all the sheets.

In my dream game, reducing sail with the S key becomes a glacial process and people start using yard control and other methods.

[Shipmate]

I think it's a good idea, but begin to raise the level of gameplay to a level probably too high for casual players. I'll admit, this game is difficult already with wind, listing, range, penetration, etc.

Plus, there are other things the devs still need to work on. I'd suggest tabling this idea for a much later patch after release.

[Brigand]

Whould the use of brailing lines lessen the amount of effort required to re-set the gaff sail?

~Brigand

You mean brailing up instead of scandalizing?

Yes, indeed that is what I meant to ask.

~Brigand

[maturin]

Yes, indeed that is what I meant to ask.

~Brigand

Well that's just the normal way of doing things if you have a standing gaff or something on a lanteen yard. No need to hoist anything when you're ready to get under way again, but it still takes longer than just casting off the peak halyard.

 

You can brail up a normal gaff as well, although I suppose it might take some fiddling with the foot of the sail first.

[Baggywrinkle]

This is not the usage I've read about. Scandalizing a square sail AFAIK means simply lowering the yard to the cap, without hauling on the clewlines and bunt lines. This gets you an extremely baggy sail, billowing forward.

I imagine that this created an ungodly mess, on the wind. It was often done when sailing dead downwind, however, as a way to get a bit of drive out of the mizzen topsail without blanketing the maintopsail.

And if you look at old battle paintings, you will almost always see ships carrying clewed-up courses, topsails and scandalized t'gallants. So in this case it was indeed a means of controlling speed. I'm not sure why it was preferable to just clewing up. Maybe it was slightly faster.

But I think the fastest emergency stop procedure, before the wind, would be to let fly all the sheets.ut

 

Ah, of course, thank you! In my head it's down as 'method to spill wind' but of course that's exactly what scandalising is! Memory blank (though maybe that appeal for correction was old knowledge trying to break through) and failed to put two and two together, ejit. In paintings, I'd assumed a balance of artistic license (looks plenty dramatic, and would have been a common enough sight to those watching harbours) and 'spilling wind option'. Interesting that the consensus seems to have lain in clewed tops'ls but scandalised t'gallants...hmmm...

 

 

But I think the fastest emergency stop procedure, before the wind, would be to let fly all the sheets.

 

Heave to. Letting fly would be a quick way to loose drive but you've still got all that windage pushing you merrily along. 

 

 

Whould the use of brailing lines lessen the amount of effort required to re-set the gaff sail?

~Brigand

 

 

As Matuin says - yes, in short

 

Standing gaffs (as any gaff may as well be with brailing lines rigged) have this massively in their favour, easy to set, easy to furl. Dropping the peak (note by easing out the halyard rather than "just casting off" unless you want the thing crashing on to deck!) is a quick job for one bloke, making it 'easier' than brailing. The pull of the re-hoist however tips the balance well towards brailing.

 

Thank you for the informative, as ever, post Maturin; good to see you around Brigand.

 

Baggy

[maturin]

 

Heave to. Letting fly would be a quick way to loose drive but you've still got all that windage pushing you merrily along. 

 

I may be wrong, but I think of heaving to as a means of staying in place, not of slowing down. Certainly if you are sailing along at eight knots, you have to be circumspect about throwing big old topsails aback. Harland recommends slightly backing the mizzen topsail, although this was frowned on, at times. So wouldn't a ship usually shorten sail and drift to a near stop prior to heaving to? Or else they could run up into the wind, lose way, back the foretopsail and settle comfortably back down again. But that supposes plenty of time and room to windward.

 

If a ship is before the wind and needs to decelerate and rapidly as possible, without changing course, I imagine that slacking sheets and halyards would be the best they can do. Or with the wind abeam, even, casting off sheets is something accomplished in an instant by just a few men, whereas backing yards requires a lot of muscle dedicated to a long upwind haul.

 

Maybe that's why ships in battle scandalized their t'gallants so much. They wanted to close rapidly to within point-blank range, then sharply decelerate while holding their position in line.

[Thomas Blackwell]

I'm all for treating my ship like a pig in times of need, then sitting her down and giving her a really big hug once it pays off.

[Baggywrinkle]

Was really replying to "fastest emergency stop procedure"

 

That said, there isn't any such thing as 'stopping' at sea . Indeed, the beauty of heaving to is that you are not stopped, that you make a steady, slow, and predictable speed through the water and to leeward. The rudder answers, trim answers, it is no great feat of seamanship to make way again. It's really a very cool practice Sure, a knot or two may as well be staying in place for an hour. what's a mile between friends, but it's crucial to the process (as I'm sure you're aware, but no harm in empahsising it ) that the vessel keeps moving through the water. As for usual practices - I'd happily defer: it's been over five years since I was on a square rigger, longer since a decent sailing passage, and heaving to wasn't a usual practice for us then. I don't remember any particular preparation though. 

 

Totally with you on the risks of backing, the frequent desire in battle to maintain a heading and control speed, and that sheet and halyard playtime is how you achieve that control. For me the interesting thing is the apparent value in dumping power (easing halyards) over maintaining control (clewing up). It suggests a pretty permanent deceleration - much harder to re-hoist a yard than to let off bunts and clews and sheet home - but the gents knew what they were about. It also goes to show just how important tops'ls were. which it seems can never be stressed enough. That an easy task for a few men is a solid effort for a group to undo sums sailing up a treat! Won't have a chance to ask anyone for a month or so (due in San Diego, hoping for a chat with the guys on Rose), and it's great to hear some informed options.

 

Baggy

 

ps. It is a pet peeve of mine, this desire for boats to stop. The first day after she launches that a vessel stops moving is the day her keel lies fast aground. Not an avenue to be explored too hurriedly. Dowse all canvas, scandalise, let fly, whatever you want to slow down...but don't ask them to sit like a van in a NO PARKING ACCESS 24HRS spot. It is to miss not just the essence of sailing, but the reason and spirit behind all the other bollocks The day a sailing game can get gamers to acknowledge and support that will be a happy one for me...not least cos I can retire and get my fix without getting cold and wet

[DeRuyter]

Great posts Baggy!  You'll have to share some photos and the results of your chat onboard the Rose.

 

Of course, modern square rig crew have a short cut for some of their maneuvers.... the "iron wind". Practicalities of schedules and limited crew unfortunately. Now let me tell you about hoisting a 1500 lb tops'l yard......

[maturin]

Topsail yards were nice and small back then, right?