Repair Balancing

[Slim McSauce]

Repairs are a touchy subject. There are people who like the way it is and people who want to see it changed, I happen to be one of the former. I think repairs should be limited to a 3 repair system for both sail and hull individually, and rum should stay the same as it is.

The way this would be different is that these repairs are not timed. You get 3 sail repairs, you can use these all in a row with no time in between. So say you get double dismasted by chance, you're down to 40% sails now. Instead of run and try to repair, run and try to repair, you can immediately get back into the fight with 3 consecutive sail repairs and be back up to 100%. You won't have as long supply of repairs, but they can be used much more effectively now in extremely dire scenarios that would otherwise mean death, while you still also have the choice to hold your repairs out as long as you can, taking skilled and effective measures to deal damage without taking it yourself.

This would be a refreshing change of pace for combat. Too often do battles draw themselves out wayy longer than they should, but also too often does one mistake either cost extreme hull or extreme masts damage which either immediately results in punishing death, or takes someone out of the battle for sometimes 30 minutes while they pull of and repair.

I would like to see this tested in one of the next updates after this upcoming patch goes live. Too long have repairs been taking up a large space in what is otherwise very strategic combat between vessels and made it into who can dps brawl and repair tank the hardest over time. I'm not fond of this style of combat at all, I think NA:L had not only better balanced fights with it's repair system, but more authentic as well. NA needs to follow the standard NAL set for it's very well balanced fights.

[Anolytic]

18 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

There are people who like the way it is and people who want to see it changed, I happen to be one of the former. I think repairs should be limited to a 3 repair system for both sail and hull individually, and rum should stay the same as it is.

You appear to be contradicting yourself here. Unless you mean to say that you both like the way it is and also want to see it changed. But then the constructed dichotomy seems misplaced.

21 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

You get 3 sail repairs, you can use these all in a row with no time in between.

I like the idea of being limited to 3 repairs (or perhaps even less) per battle. However several consecutive repairs without cooldown in-between would be a terrible idea in my opinion. Then you might as well go back to the old system of 1 repair of each type per battle and just buff that repair by 200%.

"Instantly" restoring to full health heavily damaged ships is both unrealistic and not a gameplay improvement. 

Also, those small mistakes that you talk of can turn a battle one way or another, those mistakes are exactly what PvP is all about. The mistakes you make should be severely penalised by the game. There is no do-over in PvP.

[William Death]

1 repair of each per battle. No rum (or only 30% recover 1 time). Repairs carried on the ship, kits filled up in port the way it used to be. Extra repair kits in the hold for longer cruises.

Combat was much, much, much more immersive without unlimited repairs. And before someone comes along to say it, repair mods are not the issue. Its the fact you can pull away from battle and come back in 24 minutes with a practically brand new ship, with or without repair mods. Kiting and waiting on your repair is considered a 'tactic' now....in reality there are no more real repair tactics where a skipper has to make the choice between an early repair to keep his structure or masts intact, or bank on a later repair benefiting him more. No more hard choices for PB commanders: do I send one of my best guys over there to deal with those ships, knowing he's already used his hull rep, or do I trust this less-experienced captain with a healthy ship and a repair up his sleeve to get the job done?

New repair system was unneeded and created more issues than it ever solved (goal of repairs was a money/resource sink? LOL).

[Slim McSauce]

16 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

You appear to be contradicting yourself here. Unless you mean to say that you both like the way it is and also want to see it changed. But then the constructed dichotomy seems misplaced.

I like the idea of being limited to 3 repairs (or perhaps even less) per battle. However several consecutive repairs without cooldown in-between would be a terrible idea in my opinion. Then you might as well go back to the old system of 1 repair of each type per battle and just buff that repair by 200%.

"Instantly" restoring to full health heavily damaged ships is both unrealistic and not a gameplay improvement. 

Also, those small mistakes that you talk of can turn a battle one way or another, those mistakes are exactly what PvP is all about. The mistakes you make should be severely penalised by the game. There is no do-over in PvP.

How does 1 repair for 200% make any sense. You cannot repair your ship 200% unless it's about repair to 200% over time which be very counter intuitive.

There is no instant repair, I don't know why you put quotes there. Repairs take time no matter what, it's not that you instantly repair, you instantly can follow up a repair with another repair up to 3 and then you're your out.

Having just 1 repair is too limiting, I'd rather have 3 repairs for 33% each over 1 repair for 100% anyday but what do you think? Mistakes now are repaired too much with current repairs. You repair every moment you can, instead of repairs being used sparedly like they should.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Stars and Stripes]

3 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

You get 3 sail repairs, you can use these all in a row with no time in between. So say you get double dismasted by chance, you're down to 40% sails now. Instead of run and try to repair, run and try to repair, you can immediately get back into the fight with 3 consecutive sail repairs and be back up to 100%

This idea is terrible.......

Combat would be impossible with limited chain. If it was unlimited then it would make no difference.

Thanks but no thanks.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, William Death said:

1 repair of each per battle. No rum (or only 30% recover 1 time). Repairs carried on the ship, kits filled up in port the way it used to be. Extra repair kits in the hold for longer cruises.

Combat was much, much, much more immersive without unlimited repairs. And before someone comes along to say it, repair mods are not the issue. Its the fact you can pull away from battle and come back in 24 minutes with a practically brand new ship, with or without repair mods. Kiting and waiting on your repair is considered a 'tactic' now....in reality there are no more real repair tactics where a skipper has to make the choice between an early repair to keep his structure or masts intact, or bank on a later repair benefiting him more. No more hard choices for PB commanders: do I send one of my best guys over there to deal with those ships, knowing he's already used his hull rep, or do I trust this less-experienced captain with a healthy ship and a repair up his sleeve to get the job done?

New repair system was unneeded and created more issues than it ever solved (goal of repairs was a money/resource sink? LOL).

Yeah, I agree with pretty much every bit of this. I know the goal was to allow players to have a better chance fighting multiple enemies, but the result has been the opposite. I used to feel like I had a good chance in even ships 1v2, 1v3, or maybe even 1v4. Now, I still go for it, but my chances are much lower. Its just impossible to compete with 4 repairs for my 1, unless the enemy are complete idiots. 

Mostly, I don't like how the current system covers up people's mistakes. Before, 1 mistake could be the difference between winning and losing a fight. It felt like the fights described in Patrick O'Brians books, or the movie Master and Commander. In a chase, a couple degrees could be the difference between escape and capture. Now, its how long do I have until my next repair. 

[Slim McSauce]

49 minutes ago, Stars and Stripes said:

This idea is terrible.......

Combat would be impossible with limited chain. If it was unlimited then it would make no difference.

Thanks but no thanks.

 

Ok really? 4 broadsides of chain one one side can easily take 50% of sails off. That's two sail repairs, you have one left for the rest of the entire battle. How exactly would that be impossible? Not to mention everyone will be in this exact way with repairs, there is no possible advantage you could get (once mods are balanced coming next patch or after) 
 

I think you mean that combat with limited chain AND repairs would take skill, therefore you don't want it.

[Riparian]

I would prefer to get rid of this current "healing potion" type fast repair model altogether (fast with cooldowns or otherwise limited).

Just make repairing one of the crew activities (like sailing, gunnery, boarding) that you can activate or deactivate. While repairing, you would slowly repair your ship if you have repairing materials left, but at the same time your crew would be very vulnerable (more than in boarding).

It would be even better, if we could better control exact amounts of crew in each of the activities and not just activate vs deactivate.

With crew casualties, not all losses are killed or badly wounded, but include shocked, lightly wounded or scared. As long as you have "rum" (or medical supplies) you should be able to slowly recover half (or some other reasonable fraction) of casualties (but definitely not all).

[Fletch]

My biggest gripe with repair is the fact it can be done at full speed.  Fixing sails while sailing at full speed is simply incredible . Are all the crew supposed to be up in the rigging with a needle and thread? Sails should have to be dropped to fix them.  Hull repairs are also way to much while the ship is still maintaining full speed and fighting battles  Repairing a ship in the middle of a battle should have more negative effects.  A broadside fired at a repairing ship should kill at least twice or 3 times the crew of a normal broad  side making repairing risky.

I agree with the poster  above the current system is like some magic heal potion

Edited October 16, 2018 by Fletch67

[Miaowi]

My two cent: I prefer the new more granular system to the old 

[Hethwill]

Side thought.

What you'd think it would be the easiest and fastest; to repair a sloop/brig main mast or to repair a ship of the line main mast ? Weight (and quantity) of repairs is too low and too few to represent the true nature of what they accomplish.

IF your repairs will recover 30% of "mass" of rigging, then your repairs must weight 30% of the rigging mass of the ship.  Same for hull mass. Right ?

Think about this idea and how it may change things even if it "hurts" a lot your speed.

It is all about management of your ship.

 

[Slim McSauce]

2 hours ago, Riparian said:

I would prefer to get rid of this current "healing potion" type fast repair model altogether (fast with cooldowns or otherwise limited).

Just make repairing one of the crew activities (like sailing, gunnery, boarding) that you can activate or deactivate. While repairing, you would slowly repair your ship if you have repairing materials left, but at the same time your crew would be very vulnerable (more than in boarding).

It would be even better, if we could better control exact amounts of crew in each of the activities and not just activate vs deactivate.

With crew casualties, not all losses are killed or badly wounded, but include shocked, lightly wounded or scared. As long as you have "rum" (or medical supplies) you should be able to slowly recover half (or some other reasonable fraction) of casualties (but definitely not all).

not a half bad idea. I would support this equally paired with slower repair speeds.

 

1 hour ago, Miaowi said:

My two cent: I prefer the new more granular system to the old 

not very helpful but thanks anyway

Just now, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Side thought.

What you'd think it would be the easiest and fastest; to repair a sloop/brig main mast or to repair a ship of the line main mast ? Weight (and quantity) of repairs is too low and too few to represent the true nature of what they accomplish.

IF your repairs will recover 30% of "mass" of rigging, then your repairs must weight 30% of the rigging mass of the ship.  Same for hull mass. Right ?

Think about this idea and how it may change things even if it "hurts" a lot your speed.

It is all about management of your ship.

I for one would not have to slaughter a perfectly good speed stat over simple cut and dry repair mechanics. Just putting repairs in my hold seeing speed go down sets of anti-fun alarms in my head. I shouldn't be punished for having the basic function of repairs, neither should I get a advantage having my hold stacked with enough materials to build two new sister ships in a long battle.

[Hethwill]

Of course you wouldn't. Why would you ?  

What you read as personal punishment I see as global balancer.

Thanks for this discussion, my opinion has been registered.

[Slim McSauce]

Let me also say using repairs as some kind of economy element was and always has been a hugely limiting PVP factor. If you don't have repairs, you can't compete in a fight, simple as that. If a port doesn't have repairs stocked (or anything stocked for that matter) people aren't going to visit it. Fight's aren't going to take place around useless empty stretches of map only made worse by the fact that you can only get a handful of engagements before you have to sail, sometimes up to an hour back to your home waters before you can start a new adventure. Probably why DLC ships are so popular, since you just scuttle them when you're done and you save yourself a few hours of afk sailing a day.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Guest]

limiting repairs would also make ships/upgrades get destroyed more frequently, which would also make the economy better

[Slim McSauce]

17 minutes ago, Wyy said:

limiting repairs would also make ships/upgrades get destroyed more frequently, which would also make the economy better

not true in the slightest.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[admin]

8 hours ago, Anolytic said:

 

I like the idea of being limited to 3 repairs (or perhaps even less) per battle. However several consecutive repairs without cooldown in-between would be a terrible idea in my opinion. Then you might as well go back to the old system of 1 repair of each type per battle and just buff that repair by 200%.

"Instantly" restoring to full health heavily damaged ships is both unrealistic and not a gameplay improvement. 

Natural repair balance can be achieved with increase price and somewhat realistic weight

Сurrent repairs weight is too low. You can repair 10000 hp (for a ship weighing 3000 tons) by using just 100 tons of repairs.

[Angus MacDuff]

8 hours ago, William Death said:

1 repair of each per battle. No rum (or only 30% recover 1 time). Repairs carried on the ship, kits filled up in port the way it used to be. Extra repair kits in the hold for longer cruises.

Combat was much, much, much more immersive without unlimited repairs. And before someone comes along to say it, repair mods are not the issue. Its the fact you can pull away from battle and come back in 24 minutes with a practically brand new ship, with or without repair mods. Kiting and waiting on your repair is considered a 'tactic' now....in reality there are no more real repair tactics where a skipper has to make the choice between an early repair to keep his structure or masts intact, or bank on a later repair benefiting him more. No more hard choices for PB commanders: do I send one of my best guys over there to deal with those ships, knowing he's already used his hull rep, or do I trust this less-experienced captain with a healthy ship and a repair up his sleeve to get the job done?

New repair system was unneeded and created more issues than it ever solved (goal of repairs was a money/resource sink? LOL).

This is the way to go.  Repairing a ship during a battle is ridiculous from a RL perspective but certainly necessary to some extent from a game-play point of view.  As death says, though, they should be very limited.  I hate the fact that I work hard and make some kind of brilliant manoeuvre (it happens!!) which puts a serious dent in my opponent, only to see his hull structure magically reappear again.  The idea of bringing along reps in your hold which can't be used in the current battle solves the problem of returning to port after every fight.  A nice, neat gameplay solution.  If it was my decision, I would say minor repair to hull, crew & sail (10%?) during battle and fully rep in OW. Unless you die of course...

[Dibbler (Retired)]

 One of main reasons reps are unbalanced at moment is the ability to stack northern carp and master northern on same ship in my humble opinion.

[Sir Texas Sir]

Just make it so you can't repair if your going faster than battle sails.  Give a reason for folks to stay in battle sails and GASP, "BATTLE."   The problem is to many folks like just about every one battles at full sails and does repairs too.  You should not be able to repair anything at full sails.  You see how much more balance it gets when folks can't just run all the time with full repairs going and have to actually choose when to use them or not.

 

The other thing is the stacking of mods, we are suppose to have this changed so I won't comment on it until that gets in games, but we should have only two of one type of mods/ship knowledge on a ship at a time.

[Stars and Stripes]

13 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Ok really? 4 broadsides of chain one one side can easily take 50% of sails off. That's two sail repairs, you have one left for the rest of the entire battle. How exactly would that be impossible? Not to mention everyone will be in this exact way with repairs, there is no possible advantage you could get (once mods are balanced coming next patch or after) 
 

I think you mean that combat with limited chain AND repairs would take skill, therefore you don't want it.

No I meant your idea is dumb.

[Galt]

7 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Just make it so you can't repair if your going faster than battle sails.  Give a reason for folks to stay in battle sails and GASP, "BATTLE."   The problem is to many folks like just about every one battles at full sails and does repairs too.  You should not be able to repair anything at full sails.  You see how much more balance it gets when folks can't just run all the time with full repairs going and have to actually choose when to use them or not.

I could support this system just because I think it has worked really well with leaks. The lower percentage of sail you have, the further your repairs will go. Full stop = 150%, Battle = 100%, and Half Sails = 50%. (or something to that effect)

[Slim McSauce]

10 hours ago, admin said:

Natural repair balance can be achieved with increase price and somewhat realistic weight

Сurrent repairs weight is too low. You can repair 10000 hp (for a ship weighing 3000 tons) by using just 100 tons of repairs.

Sorry admin, with all due respect both these ideas are just as bad. For one you are already severely limiting PVP potential by soft locking us to ports that have repairs in them. More weight just means you get less fight per hold of repairs, meaning you travel an hour for pvp, get one fight where you use all your repairs, then have to sail an hour back to refill.

I think the mistake is putting too much emphasis on repairs as an economy element and pvp amount limiter. Repairs as the money sink in game is anti-fun in the worse sense. You cannot PVP without them, they absolutely ruin your speed stats, and now you want to make them heavier instead of just capping them so we can do even less on a voyage?

This fixes one problem, while adding two more and I don't support it.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[William Death]

2 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Repairs as the money sink in game is anti-fun in the worse sense. You cannot PVP without them, they absolutely ruin your speed stats, and now you want to make them heavier instead of just capping them so we can do even less on a voyage?

Agreed. People will go out, do one or two battles and sail back to port because they can't afford the speed nerf to carry enough repairs to stick around and fight, and they don't loot enough repairs because nobody is carrying extra (because it kills your speed and speed = life for OW PvP).

 

And the best part? All these "historical references" getting thrown around lately...but nobody wants to talk about the silliness that is more weight = slower ship. In reality, ships have to carry enough weight (either in cargo or in ballast) to get to an acceptable waterline range. Too little weight and the ship floats too high and has lower stability, in extreme cases even risking capsizing.

This is why ships carried rock ballast (beyond keeping them upright when empty). When fully loaded with cannons, supplies, cargo, etc for a voyage, if a ship didn't reach the desired waterline, ballast rocks would be loaded to bring her to an acceptable draft. Hence, the creation of literal miniature islands made of discarded ballast rocks. You would, of course, gain some extra speed by being lighter...but a warship wouldn't make a habit of sailing from port without being ballasted properly.

That is why pumping the water over the side and scuttling cannons was a last resort trick for extra speed: not only will your crew be without supplies and your ship defenseless, you're also risking your ship's ability to stay upright (but better for a captain to risk it all and lose, then to not do everything possible and subsequently be executed at the ruling of a court martial).

 

Hence, why repairs should be in 'kit' form as they used to be. Every ship gets maybe 10 slots built in for kits. You fill that up from any port. If you want extra repairs above that, you can carry kits in your hold, which can provide a small decrease in speed. Maximum speed decrease for full hull vs empty hull should be less than .75kn, IMO. Need to stop punishing players for wanting to carry enough repairs to make a long voyage. Stop punishing traders for carrying their designed cargo capacity. 

 

But, whether repairs are weightless or super heavy, and whether repair mods can stack or not; it doesn't change the fact that unlimited repairs in battle is BAD for the game. Even with no repair mods, you can get most of a mast back, or 25% of your ship health every 12 minutes. And seriously, what noob out there is sailing in a combat-fitted ship without the carpentry perk for +4% repair?

And don't even start with the rum repairs that let you repair more crew in the battle than your ship has (somewhere I saw a screenshot where a person had raked more than 650 crew off of a Bellona, but the Bellona still had a fair amount of crew left). The necromancer was working overtime on that ship.

[Sea Fox]

6 minutes ago, William Death said:

Agreed. People will go out, do one or two battles and sail back to port because they can't afford the speed nerf to carry enough repairs to stick around and fight, and they don't loot enough repairs because nobody is carrying extra (because it kills your speed and speed = life for OW PvP).

 

And the best part? All these "historical references" getting thrown around lately...but nobody wants to talk about the silliness that is more weight = slower ship. In reality, ships have to carry enough weight (either in cargo or in ballast) to get to an acceptable waterline range. Too little weight and the ship floats too high and has lower stability, in extreme cases even risking capsizing.

This is why ships carried rock ballast (beyond keeping them upright when empty). When fully loaded with cannons, supplies, cargo, etc for a voyage, if a ship didn't reach the desired waterline, ballast rocks would be loaded to bring her to an acceptable draft. Hence, the creation of literal miniature islands made of discarded ballast rocks. You would, of course, gain some extra speed by being lighter...but a warship wouldn't make a habit of sailing from port without being ballasted properly.

That is why pumping the water over the side and scuttling cannons was a last resort trick for extra speed: not only will your crew be without supplies and your ship defenseless, you're also risking your ship's ability to stay upright (but better for a captain to risk it all and lose, then to not do everything possible and subsequently be executed at the ruling of a court martial).

 

Hence, why repairs should be in 'kit' form as they used to be. Every ship gets maybe 10 slots built in for kits. You fill that up from any port. If you want extra repairs above that, you can carry kits in your hold, which can provide a small decrease in speed. Maximum speed decrease for full hull vs empty hull should be less than .75kn, IMO. Need to stop punishing players for wanting to carry enough repairs to make a long voyage. Stop punishing traders for carrying their designed cargo capacity. 

 

But, whether repairs are weightless or super heavy, and whether repair mods can stack or not; it doesn't change the fact that unlimited repairs in battle is BAD for the game. Even with no repair mods, you can get most of a mast back, or 25% of your ship health every 12 minutes. And seriously, what noob out there is sailing in a combat-fitted ship without the carpentry perk for +4% repair?

And don't even start with the rum repairs that let you repair more crew in the battle than your ship has (somewhere I saw a screenshot where a person had raked more than 650 crew off of a Bellona, but the Bellona still had a fair amount of crew left). The necromancer was working overtime on that ship.

Reposted because I agree with every word