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Reduce the crew numbers on the indiaman

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Can someone give me a resonable explanation why the indiaman have 380 crew?

The Cerberus have a similar number on cannons and have only 195 crew. Ok they are small caliber.

But if we compare the indiaman with more powerful frigates this situation we see this situation is a joke.

As an example the Trinco: 50 cannons / 325 crew

 

So why is a merchant ship with almost half the cannon numbers in comparison with a frigate have more crew ?

It wasn't the intention to take the most cargo to make the most profit?

Or maybe we are all wrong and the Indiaman was the first liner made by Royal Caribbean to take passengers for a good holiday trip to the white sand beaches in the caribbean?🤣

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It is in fact ridiculously high.  It can actually be used offensively in this regard and maybe that's what the Devs want. Really the LGV and even the TBrig have far too many crew for their purpose.

Edited by Angus MacDuff

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I think there is something to what @Angus MacDuff says, there is a gameplay reason behind it. The issue of crew numbers on traders has been raised before. If I remember correctly they did decrease crew on the smaller traders. Here is part of my post on the Indiaman crew from 2016:

East Indiamen normally carried closer to 120 crew rather than the 380 we see in game. An example would be the EIC ship Ceylon captured during the Mauritius campaign in 1810. Original complement was 90 and in 1810 she had 110.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceylon_(1803_ship)

Another example would be in "Two Years Before the Mast" the brig that the author sailed around the horn on had a crew of 10. 

 

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22 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

I think there is something to what @Angus MacDuff says, there is a gameplay reason behind it. The issue of crew numbers on traders has been raised before. If I remember correctly they did decrease crew on the smaller traders. Here is part of my post on the Indiaman crew from 2016:

East Indiamen normally carried closer to 120 crew rather than the 380 we see in game. An example would be the EIC ship Ceylon captured during the Mauritius campaign in 1810. Original complement was 90 and in 1810 she had 110.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceylon_(1803_ship)

Another example would be in "Two Years Before the Mast" the brig that the author sailed around the horn on had a crew of 10. 

 

I understand the gameplay reason behind it, but it is a joke to have 380 crew in comparison with the others 5th rates that are warships. If they had something around  260 just to be a little higher than a LGV would make more sense.

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The other day my indiaman with a compliment of 100 crew was boarded and sunk before my game even loaded into battle.

Any reduction in crew would make Indiamen - with guns or without them - completely and utterly defenceless, even more so than they already are. On the other hand, maybe more players would start sailing traders with warships in fleet for protection.

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The Indiaman use to be classed as a 4th rate, not sure why it was lowered in class. So when you compare the Indiaman to ships in its ORGINAL class it makes since.

You have not provided a reason on why to lower the crew on the Indiaman. The high crew it has does not create a balance problem. However it does provide player the ability to protect their cargo that other traders do not. such as fully man sails, cannons, and boarding prep. An Indiaman outfitted to be a "pirate" ship requires the large crew. 

The Indiaman offers players the ability to truly be pirates as they get a high number of crew to board enemy ships good cannons decent speed and the ability to enter any port. Instead of attempting to limit content and different play styles make a suggestion that adds more content and gives player more options. SUCH AS

instead of modifying the Indiaman the devs create an "Indiaman Refit" which would lower crew count to roughly 250, lower the class of cannons, increase cargo weight. This would be the opposite of the LGV refit which makes the ship ready for combat.  

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1 hour ago, sounthernrebel78 said:

The Indiaman use to be classed as a 4th rate, not sure why it was lowered in class. So when you compare the Indiaman to ships in its ORGINAL class it makes since.

You have not provided a reason on why to lower the crew on the Indiaman. The high crew it has does not create a balance problem. However it does provide player the ability to protect their cargo that other traders do not. such as fully man sails, cannons, and boarding prep. An Indiaman outfitted to be a "pirate" ship requires the large crew. 

The Indiaman offers players the ability to truly be pirates as they get a high number of crew to board enemy ships good cannons decent speed and the ability to enter any port. Instead of attempting to limit content and different play styles make a suggestion that adds more content and gives player more options. SUCH AS

instead of modifying the Indiaman the devs create an "Indiaman Refit" which would lower crew count to roughly 250, lower the class of cannons, increase cargo weight. This would be the opposite of the LGV refit which makes the ship ready for combat.  

How can a 28 guns ship be rated as 4th rate? It was a 4th rate in NA in the beginning?  Anyway lets continue.

"The Indiaman offers players the ability to truly be pirates as they get a high number of crew to board enemy ships good cannons decent speed and the ability to enter any port. Instead of attempting to limit content and different play styles make a suggestion that adds more content and gives player more options. "

Interesting your comment. I admit i never saw a player using an Indiaman for piracy and i suspect the reason behind this is the lack of speed also it doens't have any bow chasers. I know situations where indiamans were used as bait but that is another situation. But talking about the balacing issue. "such as fully man sails, cannons, and boarding prep." Why boarding prep? It is a merchant ship or a warship ? Doens't make sense. Trader ships should fear other frigates and not having OP crew numbers.

 

 

 

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Lowering crew on the trade ships would make them so much easier to take, capture, or sink. 

Trade ships already have lower base speeds and less guns.

I see the argument to have the indiaman crew count lowered slightly from 380 to 350, but trade ships are already at a disadvantage (but I will realize that talented players have been able to make surprising uses out of them) losing another stat is positively irritating.

Put an indiaman to 120, lgv to what 80? Man it suddenly becomes piss easy to board and capture. Trade ships would really have nothing. What we have now at least gives the player in the trade ship a chance to fight back in both cannon fire and boarding.

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6 minutes ago, Coraline Vodka said:

Did you get sunk or boarded by an indiaman before making this thread? I'm pretty sure most are fine with indiaman at 380 crew

Nope nothing. I use the indiaman to make quick cash. Today i was having a conversation with a friend about having a fleet of 3 indiaman in teak/teak and how good that could be against other players and we started to talk in one point about how didn't make any sense the crew numbers from a historical point of view. He mentioned that in the past suggested in the foruns the crew weight would influence the ship speed which i thought it would be a nice addition to NA. So if a player would want to sail in a indiaman  with 380 crew would get a penalty because the crew provisions for the trip as an example. It was because this conversation i decided to create a post about this.

2 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

While I agree with the historical accuracy argument...  lets be honest.  It's 3 more grape runs.

Yes lol.

2 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

You can always equip less crew on your indiaman if you feel crew is being wasted 😉

In fact i changed nation a week ago so i already sail undercrew anyway.

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2 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

Lowering crew on the trade ships would make them so much easier to take, capture, or sink. 

Trade ships already have lower base speeds and less guns.

I see the argument to have the indiaman crew count lowered slightly from 380 to 350, but trade ships are already at a disadvantage (but I will realize that talented players have been able to make surprising uses out of them) losing another stat is positively irritating.

Put an indiaman to 120, lgv to what 80? Man it suddenly becomes piss easy to board and capture. Trade ships would really have nothing. What we have now at least gives the player in the trade ship a chance to fight back in both cannon fire and boarding.

Well but shouldn't trader ships using an escort? And if that is the case why is the trader brig and trader snow only carrying 60 crew and not 120 or 140? So this special rules only apply to LGV and the indiaman? And talking about disadvantage. A Indiaman vs frigate both teak/teak as an example. The frigate should fear being board by a merchant ship? Makes sense?

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Indiamen were huge transports (alright, our West Indiaman isn't as big as the East Indiaman, but still...) for multi purpose. That means, not only cargo for the various West/East India companies, but colonists and troops. All personnel to run and to defend colonies.

And this is the explanation for a large crew...

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38 minutes ago, no one said:

Well but shouldn't trader ships using an escort? And if that is the case why is the trader brig and trader snow only carrying 60 crew and not 120 or 140? So this special rules only apply to LGV and the indiaman? And talking about disadvantage. A Indiaman vs frigate both teak/teak as an example. The frigate should fear being board by a merchant ship? Makes sense?

A frigate is more manueverable, most have more guns, has more knowledge slots, and in some cases has more hitpoints as well.

I don't discount that you have a sound argument, the indiaman probably has too much crew, but when I look at all other factors, the lgv and indiaman really only have 1 advantage over a possible enemy - crew. In terms of game balance I think this is perfectly acceptable.

Should players in trade ships have escorts? Probably.

I just forsee the scenario where an lgv and indiaman have 120 and 180 crew respectively, you just chain them a bit, force them in the wind, board and it's game over. Or you don't have to grape as much, push, and board. Combat ships have 2 more knowledge slots for extra bonuses, all combat ships have relatively higher base speeds than their trader counter parts, and most   combat ships are more manueverable as well. 

If we should absolutely lower crew count on the lgv and indiaman, I would drop the lgv from 240 to 200/210 and the indiaman from 380 to 320/350. Even still, trade ships are easy enough to kill or take already and i don't see why they would need another nerf.

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Concur with @Teutonic.  It's gameplay over reality here.  Yes the crew is way over what it would have been in RL, but leave it alone.  These ships need to have something.  I've killed a lot of them and even had an Indiaman kill me.  My mistake...

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Why the high crew count? Because most Indiaman players are easy enough to sink as-is. No need to further handicap them by lowering crew. 

Also, I'd say if a good skipper is capable of using his large crew and heavy cannons to fight off an enemy whilst in his trade ship, I'd applaud him. As it is, Indiaman can fight some.

I mean, should a trade ship represent free PvP marks when sailing around? Is that what we want? Because thats what you get when you start a slow, flimsy, poor-handling 18pd frigate off in a battle with 120 crew. 

I'd argue in the other direction. I think trade ships should be able to open all 5 knowledge slots. Then we'll get crafty players in "helpless trade ships" that are really combat fitted and manned by cutthroat sailors armed to the teeth. 

 

Also, as an aside, you can't just go by 'gun count' when comparing ships. Caliber is important too. Example: Trincomalee is a 50 gun ship, so it should be equal to Constitution which only has 54 guns, right??   Indiaman is closer to a light 18pd frigate than a 9pd post ship like Cerberus. 

Same thing with ship ratings. Do away with the idea that '4th rate' and '5th rate' mean anything in NA. They don't. Its just a broad grouping of ships that serve similar purposes. Its far better to think of ships by cannon class: 9pd, 12pd, 18pd, 24, etc. Otherwise you'll find yourself asking weird questions like how Cerberus and Endymion have the same rate but one is way more powerful... 

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25 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

A frigate is more manueverable, most have more guns, has more knowledge slots, and in some cases has more hitpoints as well.

I don't discount that you have a sound argument, the indiaman probably has too much crew, but when I look at all other factors, the lgv and indiaman really only have 1 advantage over a possible enemy - crew. In terms of game balance I think this is perfectly acceptable.

Should players in trade ships have escorts? Probably.

I just forsee the scenario where an lgv and indiaman have 120 and 180 crew respectively, you just chain them a bit, force them in the wind, board and it's game over. Or you don't have to grape as much, push, and board. Combat ships have 2 more knowledge slots for extra bonuses, all combat ships have relatively higher base speeds than their trader counter parts, and most   combat ships are more manueverable as well. 

If we should absolutely lower crew count on the lgv and indiaman, I would drop the lgv from 240 to 200/210 and the indiaman from 380 to 320/350. Even still, trade ships are easy enough to kill or take already and i don't see why they would need another nerf.

 

8 minutes ago, William Death said:

Why the high crew count? Because most Indiaman players are easy enough to sink as-is. No need to further handicap them by lowering crew. 

Also, I'd say if a good skipper is capable of using his large crew and heavy cannons to fight off an enemy whilst in his trade ship, I'd applaud him. As it is, Indiaman can fight some.

I mean, should a trade ship represent free PvP marks when sailing around? Is that what we want? Because thats what you get when you start a slow, flimsy, poor-handling 18pd frigate off in a battle with 120 crew. 

I'd argue in the other direction. I think trade ships should be able to open all 5 knowledge slots. Then we'll get crafty players in "helpless trade ships" that are really combat fitted and manned by cutthroat sailors armed to the teeth. 

 

Also, as an aside, you can't just go by 'gun count' when comparing ships. Caliber is important too. Example: Trincomalee is a 50 gun ship, so it should be equal to Constitution which only has 54 guns, right??   Indiaman is closer to a light 18pd frigate than a 9pd post ship like Cerberus. 

Same thing with ship ratings. Do away with the idea that '4th rate' and '5th rate' mean anything in NA. They don't. Its just a broad grouping of ships that serve similar purposes. Its far better to think of ships by cannon class: 9pd, 12pd, 18pd, 24, etc. Otherwise you'll find yourself asking weird questions like how Cerberus and Endymion have the same rate but one is way more powerful... 

You both mentioned a interesting point. Why should trader ship have a penalty in knowledge slots? As William Death said "Then we'll get crafty players in "helpless trade ships" that are really combat fitted and manned by cutthroat sailors armed to the teeth. " I think this would be more interesting instead of the insane bonus in crew numbers.

I also don't agree with speed penalties to the traders. Instead traders with the cargo full should got an higher penalty sailing but with the cargo empty a trader Lynx should have the same speed as the Lynx with no cargo.

Teutonic said "A frigate is more manueverable, most have more guns, has more knowledge slots, and in some cases has more hitpoints as well." In reality the indiaman as more HP. As an example the Indiaman have 5000 HP in the side armor and the frigate only 3694 HP.  So you could agree if the indiaman got the 5 knowledge slots and a slighty buff in the speed wouldn't needed that insane OP crew and would be a more interesting ship to fight/sail? 

Also you mentioned to force them to the wind. IDK if that is possible but a frigate shouldn't have weight to push an indiaman against the wind. But i can be mistaken about this.

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The real question should be: why should indiaman (and so LGV) crew count be an issue?

As plainly stated: they are free marks while on any warship.
If they end being not, it's hunter's fault.

 

Edited by Licinio Chiavari
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the indiaman when leaving the harbor where always extra crewed because of the loss of sailors at sea 

so there is no need to nerf the ships.

also, i would rather see that those traders got their 2 slots back to the level of 5 /5.  it are traders not warships, so 5/5 is an honest ship and not a nerfed ship on forehand like we have today .

why do we have to punish everything or have to nerf things, it is all negative behavior for ships...

 

or just give us an honest dutch trader .....the best ships in the world and not that crap we sail in this scenario 

on april first.. i rather see me sailing a dutch clumb and blow up  every foreign ship... 

Edited by Thonys

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