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Voi_Ta

login battle exploit

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Hi devs,

We are facing very serious issue that forced us to move to capital ( = not fun)

The strategy of the exploit attack is simple. There are enemies logged off, prepared to login. One enemy is online and tags victim in the area. Battle starts, other enemies log in and join the battle. If you consider using alts, you dont even have to have enemy logged on to see the situation. It can be ship of your nation scouting.

The issue is that there is no counterplay. You dont know how many enemies you will face (they just appear from nowhere). You join a battle because you see 1v1, but there will be another 3 players in 30s.

Possible solutions:

- imo best = timer after logging 5 minutes (enemies must be visible before you get tagged to join a battle within timer)

- players must go to port first after logging in to be able to tag or join battle

@players please discuss

Edited by Voi_Ta
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I agree. join battle and tag timer should take 1-2 minutes longer than the joinable timer in battles.

Also please make it that safezones are realy safe and not a place to gank others with small ships or make them tag you to gank them after

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I think you should just give them the same timers they have for leaving a friendly port. There is still a margin they can join the battle in, but this gives other players time to tag them first. Though, to be fair, I understand this tactic. It can be impossible to get a fight sometimes when you have even a small group. I've gotten very good at dodging super AI (which aren't that super) and even fighting under towers. People wouldn't have to be so crafty if others would just come out and fight. It's a PvP server. It's just pixels, if that's all your worried about.

Edited by Galt
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What about players that get disconnected in OW? This happens often to many players and they will just get left behind. Players don't really need to log out, they can just hide in the battle instance. 

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8 hours ago, Voi_Ta said:

The strategy of the exploit attack is simple. There are enemies logged off, prepared to login. One enemy is online and tags victim in the area. Battle starts, other enemies log in and join the battle. If you consider using alts, you dont even have to have enemy logged on to see the situation. It can be ship of your nation scouting.

We are sitting in the green

We are create zerg

We are smart to not fight equal

We are tag in the green to make battle opened longer

We are cry when somebody make strong fleet ank sink us

Expooooit!!! Exploit is outnumber enemies in own reinforce zone, who are looking for fight, then drop rates to them via long battle opened timer.  

imho. sorry my bad english

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To illustrate the seriousness of the problem. Enemies are invisibly camping in front of our main port with our warehouse. We have no means how to chase them off. We are small clan and we are losing 5 ships a day this way. Without any chance to retaliate or stop that. Some people already stopped playing and the rest is slowly moving to the capital because they are tired of losing ships without any chance to run etc.

The attackers most probably use alts so they can camp forever and they are farming pvp marks this way. I don't think 4v1 fights are fun for them or that it is the kind of pvp everybody (including devs) want in this game.

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13 minutes ago, Voi_Ta said:

To illustrate the seriousness of the problem. 

ok.

Distance > 30km from nearest port with reinforce == exploit
Distance < 30km, fight inside reinforce == tactic

agree?

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13 minutes ago, SnovaZdorowa said:

ok.

Distance > 30km from nearest port with reinforce == exploit
Distance < 30km, fight inside reinforce == tactic

agree?

I don't understand if this is serious response or sarcasm because your post makes no sense to me.

In normal ports there is no reinforcement zone. People are moving to the capital because the unexpected ganks that cannot be avoided happen too often. Losing 2 ships a day to do 3 missions is not fun for anybody and it is not economically sustainable. Losing ships was not a problem when we lost few ships a week. That is what makes the game fun. Not being able to accomplish anything is not fun.

The result of the mechanic is that people either move to capital, stop playing altogether or spread and stop playing together, cooperate on production etc. I think those are all bad outcomes and in the end ruins game for everybody.

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10 hours ago, Voi_Ta said:

Hi devs,

We are facing very serious issue that forced us to move to capital ( = not fun)

The strategy of the exploit attack is simple. There are enemies logged off, prepared to login. One enemy is online and tags victim in the area. Battle starts, other enemies log in and join the battle. If you consider using alts, you dont even have to have enemy logged on to see the situation. It can be ship of your nation scouting.

 

we need to solve the problem of joining battles after re- log. It is easy - and just takes updating the timer 

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8 minutes ago, Voi_Ta said:

People are moving to the capital because the unexpected ganks that cannot be avoided happen too often.

People are moving because:

whant to play pve game on pvp server
whant to fight when THEY want it (outnumber) and be protected if no

there no game mechanics to avoid battle besides fastest ships and reinforce zones. can you offer some balanced?

sorry my bad english

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1 minute ago, SnovaZdorowa said:

People are moving because:

whant to play pve game on pvp server
whant to fight when THEY want it (outnumber) and be protected if no

there no game mechanics to avoid battle besides fastest ships and reinforce zones. can you offer some balanced?

sorry my bad english

True, but OPs problem is an exploit: one goes there attacks or is attacked then his friend magicaly appear in OW and join battle

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2 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

True, but OPs problem is an exploit: one goes there attacks or is attacked then his friend magicaly appear in OW and join battle

login timer not to solve this imho

you can be baited to pursuit enemy far away from your port/forts, fast ships have time to enter fight outside your view distance (if they have good wind).
so, you will be ganked again and again with another methods.

tips:

generated missions close to port/square fort, cancel if they are far
before sail to mission observe area, use camera key twice, click mouse wheel to move camera fast. z/x == camera up/down
before enter mission turn your stern to port (after mission end your ship have speed and tag timer)
after enter missions sail from (off) npc till mission close (3min), you can leave fight if enemy player enter
if you have SOL - forget missions, just grind OW flets near your square fort

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11 minutes ago, SnovaZdorowa said:

People are moving because:

whant to play pve game on pvp server
whant to fight when THEY want it (outnumber) and be protected if no

there no game mechanics to avoid battle besides fastest ships and reinforce zones. can you offer some balanced?

sorry my bad english

I don't think you understand my point. I like pvp server and i dont mind losing ships from time to time to ganks. And ofc in port battles etc.

The times when i saw enemy ships on horizon, run for my life, tried to get some support from clan, got into battle, tried to escape, lost ship or escaped or fend off the attackers are the memorable moments in this game.

The problem with the situation is that for the attacker using the exploit there is no risk involved. They only log in if they see they will be fighting winning battle outnumbering the victim. The victim has no control to avoid it and no chamce to win the battle. He can just surrender at time zero and not lose the time.

To your points

- players need to do some pve to earn money. If pve is not possible or it is not profitable, there would be no content in the game. No materials, no production etc. We will have fights of redeemable ships and that would be it.

It is like ecosystem. If there are wolves and sheep, it works. If the wolves kill all sheep, they will die too. The sheeps must have means to stay in the game and enjoy it to some extent.

- in this situation, it is the attacker who wants to fight only when sure to win and defender has no way how to prevent it.

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21 minutes ago, SnovaZdorowa said:

login timer not to solve this imho

you can be baited to pursuit enemy far away from your port/forts, fast ships have time to enter fight outside your view distance (if they have good wind).
so, you will be ganked again and again with another methods.

tips:

generated missions close to port/square fort, cancel if they are far
before sail to mission observe area, use camera key twice, click mouse wheel to move camera fast. z/x == camera up/down
before enter mission turn your stern to port (after mission end your ship have speed and tag timer)
after enter missions sail from (off) npc till mission close (3min), you can leave fight if enemy player enter
if you have SOL - forget missions, just grind OW flets near your square fort

I dont want ganks to disappear or to be safe in every mission from beginning. Good strategies anyway.

The original situation/exploit i have issue with:

- undock in port opened only for your nation

- check if there are enemy players on horizon (no enemy)

- go some direction

- get tagged 30s later by 4 enemy players who magically appeared behind you.

Ganking is fine, mission jumping is fine.

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If the join battle timer is 3 minutes:

- exit battle, join another battle timer would be 3 minutes

- exit port, join battle timer would be 3 minutes

- login, join timer would be 3 minutes

This would solve it all.

Edited by Cdr. Joseph Barss
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Voi_Ta, I agree that this is an exploit and should be solved.  Cdr Barss' solution is a good one (really good in fact).  However, you bear some of the blame here because you appear to be very predictable and someone has figured out your modus operandi.  Snowva also made a good point that the gankers could easily be over the horizon and still make it into your battles.  I can see that you have made a space for yourself away from the capitol in order to avoid that particular bloodbath, but now that another group has done their homework on you, you're stuck with their harassment until you take some action other than your standard operational schedule.  Move base?  Counter-gank?  Enlist allies?

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21 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Voi_Ta, I agree that this is an exploit and should be solved.  Cdr Barss' solution is a good one (really good in fact).  However, you bear some of the blame here because you appear to be very predictable and someone has figured out your modus operandi.  Snowva also made a good point that the gankers could easily be over the horizon and still make it into your battles.  I can see that you have made a space for yourself away from the capitol in order to avoid that particular bloodbath, but now that another group has done their homework on you, you're stuck with their harassment until you take some action other than your standard operational schedule.  Move base?  Counter-gank?  Enlist allies?

Agree with you (to some extent).

- We are mostly working people so we play mostly in the same hours and outside of them there is 1-2 people. No change here possible.

- Moving warehouse and all related production buildings is INCREDIBLY expensive and time consuming activity. We already considered it. I don't think clan should be forced to move because of three people using their alts+exploit.

Over horizon - no problem for me.

Change sure. We are taking some steps with the aim to make risk/reward less interesting for the gankers. I will not go into detail here, sry. Some strategies were already outlined here (go to capital, spread and don't play together...)

Enlisting allies is difficult, because if the gankers see them they simply don't log on their alts and lose nothing. Allies won't patrol around forever. With the exploit the battle starts very quickly and people must be really sitting around in pvp ready ships. There is no time for preparation.

 

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There is no "forced to move", there is only choices.  Predictability in war guarantees defeat (is that a Sun Tsu copyright?).  The Devs wont address this exploit overnight (if indeed they do), so "Fair winds and following seas", mate.

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Also when you leave battle and another is waiting for you to tag you again, is it possible to increase timer for victim to get a chance for escape this situation on and on?

Like they can't tag me another 2 minutes or so

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On 10/2/2018 at 2:13 AM, Voi_Ta said:

To illustrate the seriousness of the problem. Enemies are invisibly camping in front of our main port with our warehouse. We have no means how to chase them off. We are small clan and we are losing 5 ships a day this way. Without any chance to retaliate or stop that. Some people already stopped playing and the rest is slowly moving to the capital because they are tired of losing ships without any chance to run etc.

The attackers most probably use alts so they can camp forever and they are farming pvp marks this way. I don't think 4v1 fights are fun for them or that it is the kind of pvp everybody (including devs) want in this game.

You know there is an entire server where this isn't possible right? If you can't handle the heat your nation starts then either play on the correct server or don't start shit. EZPZ

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 Yes seen this happen before, there should be a timer on log in that prevents people from doing this 4 mins before can enter a battle perhaps.

 Having ships out of sight and run to battle is one thing, but logging in to join is BS.

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We had 2 minutes lowest time entry at some point in the past.

It was to stop "invisible" battle jumping and port sitting.

Now we have 3 minutes, 1 minute to spare.

A player can ( and many game the game ) and will use this to remain "invisible" in a battle.

Actually entire squadrons do it :) 

Why not return to the 2 minute system ? Or at the very least, entry timer equal to exit port/exit battle no join timer.

Must be in OW or no joy.

Simple.

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Why a timer at all? Battles should not be open to anyone who is not logged in when it started.  

Just to make it clear I am talking about a log in timer. battle timer is fine with me. I just dont think anyone logging into the game should be allowed to a join a battle already in progress 

Edited by Fletch67
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