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Bring back Outlaw Battles!

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5 minutes ago, Tac said:

I have bad memories of lots of people accidentally turning pirate because of mis clicks they were messy times indeed.

Only the people who are so cool that they just ignored the warnings.

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Worst scenarios of Outlaw battles i encountered in the past:

- transport and escort ships manned by players tag each other to avoid the enemy - puts valuable distance between them and enemy. enables safe escape.

- their own territory under siege with the venue to get easy targets being wide open - why even go pyrate and SAIL anywhere else in the map ? Just pirate the disney pirates, right ?! :D

The options above extend to Conquest and can easily be used for means of fleet safety.

But, just but, if Pirates are changed into hardcore nation things might change a bit and population that seeks "safety" might migrate to other nations. ( worst case scenario they stop playing overall due to no safety ).

Personally I think the Outlaw battles in Pirates should not be an option, but the "faction" be transformed into Impossible.

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3 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Personally I think the Outlaw battles in Pirates should not be an option, but the "faction" be transformed into Impossible.

 

One should not forget that by numbers pirates are the second biggest nation in this game. Many players start in it despite the stated difficulty.

 

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Just now, Nelsons Barrel said:

 

One should not forget that by numbers pirates are the second biggest nation in this game. Many players start in it despite the stated difficulty.

 

who reads that? The flag matters.

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I respect any newcomer player that doesn't read the details and then goes on and survives in the Impossible nation.

I bet he learns more in a couple months gameplay than a Safe Zone crawler in a year.

.. back to outlaw...

I like the suggestion of Outlaw to be only at "conquest" level; that's intriguing and should be explored.

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2 hours ago, Hellmuth von Mücke said:

Only the people who are so cool that they just ignored the warnings.

Or were too intoxicated they saw two ships anyway.  :) 

Edited by Tac

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1 hour ago, Nelsons Barrel said:

 

One should not forget that by numbers pirates are the second biggest nation in this game. Many players start in it despite the stated difficulty.

 

the word " pirate"

attracts more than a simple nation player it's

more a psychological thing than a thought true choice. most of the beginning captains don't read the true nature of the pirate faction

ist more an awesome mindset from the beginning if you ask me.

mostly its a bad choice to begin with

i believe that every new captain must not have the choice to begin as a pirate but become one by destiny,  by making a deliberate  action (robbery or foul play or ban from the nation or theft or mutiny or attack the wrong vessel )

perhaps a  negative standing position is the option to accomplish this

Edited by Thonys
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Not against outlaw battles coming back.

Concerned though that no matter how the rules are setup, someone will find a way to grief or abuse it.

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4 hours ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Worst scenarios of Outlaw battles i encountered in the past:

- transport and escort ships manned by players tag each other to avoid the enemy - puts valuable distance between them and enemy. enables safe escape.

As @Banished Privateer pointed out, this can already be done by players tagging AI or 2 players from different nations escorting each other. In fact, its easier to catch the outlaws in this situation because you can choose where you want to join an outlaw battle (much like the reinforcement zone battles where it is just one big circle) whereas with the other 2 options mentioned, the enemy is forced to join on 1 of 2 nations' join circles further away from the players. At least with outlaw battles, you can spawn right on top of the enemy. 

4 hours ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

- their own territory under siege with the venue to get easy targets being wide open - why even go pyrate and SAIL anywhere else in the map ? Just pirate the disney pirates, right ?! :D

The English in this statement does not make much sense. But as far as why "sail anywhere else in the map?" I can think of a few reasons: 1) to get PvP marks (outlaw battles do not yield PvP marks) 2) for RvR 3) Trading 4) to get away from outlaws who want to attack you.

Many clans moved far away from Mortimer Town during the outlaw battle days, they participated in more RvR, and made their own economies separate from the nation (take EU BLACK for example). As many have suggested before, Mortimer Town does not have to be the Pirate capital, nor does it make sense for there to be safe zones. Take away the safe zones and add outlaw battles, the pirates will disperse to every corner of the map to find a new home. 

4 hours ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

The options above extend to Conquest and can easily be used for means of fleet safety.

There is a 2-3 minute PB cooldown timer once you leave a battle. This gives the screeners more than enough time to engage the pirates once they leave their battle. and as mentioned before, this can already be done right now in the game by tagging ai or friends from another nation.

4 hours ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

But, just but, if Pirates are changed into hardcore nation things might change a bit and population that seeks "safety" might migrate to other nations. ( worst case scenario they stop playing overall due to no safety ).

Yes, there are 10 other nations in the game they can choose from :) 

4 hours ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

I like the suggestion of Outlaw to be only at "conquest" level; that's intriguing and should be explored.

Many want pirates to be turned into a Clan vs Clan nation. I argue this cannot be done without outlaw battles complete clan control over ports. The clans will need to be able to choose which clans (if any) have access to owned ports. With the current ownership controls, it would be a useless feature. I think this should be added WITH outlaw battles. 

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Make pirates, pirates and you can have outlaw battles again.

No RVR.

No port ownership.

No 1st -3 rd rates.

No nation other than clan. (Ie one clan can attack another clan or solo players)

No problems. 😎

It's the big 'nation clan RVR Disney groups that we have now that would exploit it. Make them join the other 'nationals and leave us real pirates alone.

 

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Make it Hardcore nation first :) Then re-think outlaw option. That's the sum up of what I posted.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but Pirates is a nice "little universe" in itself which can be used to test some nice mechanics - example clan vs clan, not outright outlaw everywhere.

There's good points and less good points from both sides of the fence.

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Let's put everything on the table.. what are the good points from the outlaw opposition? What are the "less good" points from the outlaw supporters? 

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Only downside of outlaw battles I see players using pirate alts to easier kill pirates or interfere with RvR (pirates outlaw mechanic should work with Battle Groups BR, in past it would be only 1v1 battle on start), but we all know how well alts make the game "better" and considering pirates to be the hardcore nation, players should accept higher risks. 

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Several people in game have mentioned to me that pirate ALTS would be a free for all on pirates. I can see now that could be a huge game abuse.

Attacking other pirates for easy kills rather than grudges etc would be pretty crappy really.

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On 9/25/2018 at 2:01 PM, Slim McSauce said:

True. I remember specifically 2 very pivotal PBs post patch 10 that were decided on pirates tagging their own fleet, sailing away from the join circle and popping out as PB started to avoid potential screening attempts. It was an absolute shitshow and is the main reason outlaw battles were removed. Another reason I don't think this mechanic should be exclusive to one nation who will gain clear advantage from it.

YOu might want to actually get your facts right.  Those battles we didn't use Outlaws.  One we tagged some ones US alt (didn't know it was an alt myself as I was in another battle with JVP and 15 us ships) and the other we taged AI ships only.  The abuse of the outlaws battles is exactly what @Christendom mention.  Certain National players bring there Pirate alts out tagging pirates and them jumping into the battle in the green zone so they can kill them.   It wasn't abused by Pirates it was abused by Nationals with Pirates alts.  

The battles your speaking of we tagged ai and even the ones we tagged other pirates we never left the join spot, but ya'll where to chicken shit to join the battle and find out where we where.  Just always assumed we sailed away.  Not once did any one bring a cutter or anything out and joined the battle to see what we where doing in side them, same with the battles against AI.  They stayed open long enough folks could of joined them but they never did.

On 9/25/2018 at 5:08 PM, Le Raf Boom said:

And how does fix griefing and bullying other 'pirates' - wasn't that a thing on global? Do what I tell you or else!

Another person with no clue about Pirates on Global.  This was never used to bully pirates. In fact unlike other nations the pirates clans got along with each other and worked together other than two of them.  HELL (US ALT CLAN) that got smashed within 48 hours of coming over to pirates and it was found out they where alts and was jumping into port battles to get VM's and tie up slots for folks actually showing up for the PB that flipped it.  (Was an issue on EU so we got the friendly clan system) The second clan was a rebel clan of former US players that came over to steal resources (remember at one time we had all silver ports) and got busted.  I challenged there clan officer to a fight and killed him in 2.5 mins of battle start (rage boarded him in the shallows.)  They ran back to US with there tails between there legs.   There was no need to bully folks when most clans wanted to work together or just be mort rats.

Also let you in on a little secret about global pirates and the wipe....we didn't get any EU players, we actually lost players.  We had less players than before the wipe and it wasn't until TF/VCO joined us we got any numbers.  I was never lieing when I said they where getting beat by 15-20 players over and over.   Yes there was a few mort rats mixed in that helped but we never had big numbers like US/GB always though we had.  

On 9/25/2018 at 5:46 PM, Slim McSauce said:

So say I'm US and decide to become an outlaw and attack my own and become a pirate. How do I do that?

They really need to make pirats non chargen.....the only way to become one is by doing so the old way in game, attacking a fellow nation member.  Than if your tired of being a pirate use your forge papers or just delete the char and make a new one.

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23 hours ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Make it Hardcore nation first :) Then re-think outlaw option. That's the sum up of what I posted.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but Pirates is a nice "little universe" in itself which can be used to test some nice mechanics - example clan vs clan, not outright outlaw everywhere.

There's good points and less good points from both sides of the fence.

I honestly thought the three new nations was there way to test hard core pirate mechanics without bothering old school pirates so they can test and put them in to game play later.   Just turn Mort into a Neutral port/zone that all nations can use and trade (though prob PvP out side the zone).  Remember how Pitts use to be when it was a neutral port, but allow pirates to use it.  Other wise make Kidd's the perm pirate home, don't have pirates a chargen nation.   Make it so folks can only become one the old way by attacking another national.  If you don't want to be a pirate any more use your forged papers or delete your char.

Make it hardcore for real and I would gladly go back pirates.

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There is nothing hardcore about Prussia/Poland/Russia. They are just not friendly to beginners. No reinforcement zone and the ability to lose all ports makes  things difficult for some, but doesn't make gameplay harder for players with more than 2,000 hours of game time. 

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1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

...

Shh, we don't like the truth here. Its much easier to blame the dirty pirates and their pirate hax. Don't forget to press the hotkey "hacks turned on" :D (PS, if you have that screenshot saved [with the fake UI] send it to me, would ya?)

 

 

Seriously though. I don't remember us bullying any clan. In fact, I seem to recall there being a written message in BLACK's clan roster in-game that said something like 'don't attack pirates [unless they're on the list]' or something like that. Only way to get on the list was to go around attacking other pirates for no reason, attacking our alts (same as attacking us), or if we knew you were a national's alt and were taking our resources/blocking us from PBs or something else trolly and offensive like that. Never do I remember anyone in BLACK attacking another pirate "just because I can." Did we 'police' our waters and crush the rebels? Yeah, of course we did. But I don't think the rebels could complain because they made their choice.

 

There have been multiple good suggestions about how to re-implement outlaw battles and remove the trolling capabilities (mainly tagging in green zone). Hopefully devs will consider it.

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Personally I would like to see outlaw battles for all factions. I do not think it would be fair to just give it to the pirates unless the pirates were a distinct faction with special rules like instead of taking ports they raid them for gold/resources. Giving all nations outlaw battles would be a BIG step in the direction of letting clans decide their own politics.

Also on a side note it does bring me a bit of sick joy to see @Sir Texas Sir complain about the same things the US complained about on global.

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Make Outlaw battles have the circle of death. Historically speaking, has a pirate run away from another pirate at sea? RP-wise, what we are talking is one pirate backstabbing another which should be allowed. It was as fun policing against the rogue players/clans as it probably was being a rogue pirate in the first place.

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I think the incredible amount of ALTS in the game and name changing DLC unfortunately  rules out outlaw battles now.

All that would happen is nationals would have a pirate alt and would just constantly attack other pirates for cheap PvP with no comeback or consequences.

You can't police it if players can change their names after an attack.

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4 hours ago, Crow said:

I think the incredible amount of ALTS in the game and name changing DLC unfortunately  rules out outlaw battles now.

All that would happen is nationals would have a pirate alt and would just constantly attack other pirates for cheap PvP with no comeback or consequences.

You can't police it if players can change their names after an attack.

But what is the difference in sinking a pirate with a pirate alt, vs sinking him with a national account? Its literally the same person sinking you. Just he is doing it with a pirate-flagged alt, instead of his national-flagged main character.

If no PvP marks are awarded, then I don't see the issue. And as long as theres no Pirate vs Pirate in the greenzone....then there will always be a safe place for the Pirates to retreat to and not worry about being tagged by their fellow nationals. 

I wouldn't worry too much about name changes. Experience has taught us that most trolls remain the same trolls, and can be spotted miles away, even long after a name change :)

 

 

Coming from someone that was in a clan and we had this happen to us (an alt clan came to Pirates with the intention of trolling us), its super easy to deal with. Call them out on it in nation chat. Make sure everyone knows that they came over and started making trouble. Ruin their credibility with the nation. Pretty soon, nobody will want to help them achieve their goals. Nobody will sell them ships, repairs, etc. If they get tagged, nobody helps out. When you have the numbers, you camp the troll clan mercilessly till they quit trolling or leave the nation. Even better is when you use your Pirate accounts and some national alts to ensure the trolls get punished wherever they sail. Trolling like that becomes expensive and boring pretty quickly--they won't stick around long.

This makes pirates more of a hardcore faction. More realistic. Pirate Kings (clan leaders of the most powerful clans) dictate what does and does not fly in the Pirate nation. Small rebellions get crushed. Large rebellions, if successful, can crush the former Pirate Kings and their followers. Joining Pirates then, is not for the casuals. Not for the sensitive type. Solo Pirates can live peaceably, so long as they don't get in the way. If a captain cannot operate under that code, then perhaps the more protected and laid-back lifestyle of a national would be better suited. (assuming FFA is implemented again as a Pirate-only mechanic...which I'd be fine with, but maybe we can do one better...)

 

Earlier in the thread, I posted I wanted FFA battles for all nations...I think that is a good thing and could work out, but we'd need a more clan based system than we have. As it is, implementing FFA battles puts us one step closer to the clan-based system that we need. Only big thing left to do, then, is to implement a system so we can allow port entry/use to only certain clans. Then alts can be policed by their own nation. Not in the required clans to access Cartagena for tar? Guess you won't be getting any unless you get another nation to wrestle control of the port from us. I think a clan-based system would even encourage more RvR...at least a little bit. Expensive (and mostly useless) ports will still discourage too much RvR, but thats another topic. Then implement clan v clan RvR within the nation and watch the salt flow :ph34r:

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Outlaw battles should yield no rewards (PVP), that may help with the alt ganking problem.

But the 'jump low level players' with no reinforcement and the new name change mechanic is a problem, that we never used to have.

Hell some low life's even use it to rob clan warehouses. I see too many alt abuses for it to work now.

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