Naval insurance comes to the Caribbean

[John Jacob Astor]

1 hour ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Inflation is human made. The resources NPC prices are true value.

Actually no.

The true value of something is what a human buyer is willing to pay for it.

The insurance appears to actually be a form of subsidy that attempts to increase the desirability of crafted ships vs, obtaining ships via game mechanics.  Whether it works will depend on what else it is packaged with.

And inflation occurs when there are open-ended structural imbalances between the quantities of whatever medium of exchange and the merchandise being purchased with it.  In the game, whether the subsidy has any effect on inflation will depend completely on whether the supply of the new coin types is stable relative to the number of ships in the game.

At present the major inflation driver is the open-ended ability to make money versus limited specialty resource drops.

[Hethwill]

You are correct, but it is the machine that defines the "stock" price even taking into consideration human intervention.

I may buy high, you may buy low, the stock price will be the mean one.

But in the case of resources, the stock price is the harvest cost. That's what building ships costs.

If you sell them above (NPC price + margin .equals. NPC ship prices in store ) then it is on you and there's no stock exchange to cover you up.

Maybe there's no need for it, speculation would be so easy in the Caribbean at this stage in the economy ... 

[John Jacob Astor]

36 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

You are correct, but it is the machine that defines the "stock" price even taking into consideration human intervention.

I may buy high, you may buy low, the stock price will be the mean one.

But in the case of resources, the stock price is the harvest cost. That's what building ships costs.

If you sell them above (NPC price + margin .equals. NPC ship prices in store ) then it is on you and there's no stock exchange to cover you up.

Maybe there's no need for it, speculation would be so easy in the Caribbean at this stage in the economy ... 

The machine might very well define the stock price.

But if there are desirable commodities in the game that have tight supply constraints, and there are no concomitant constraints on the ability to generate and/or hold cash, inflation runs away.

Commodity X has a fixed price from the AI.  What that looks like in the economy depends on whether I can actually get access to the commodity.

At present, if the commodity is generated by a building I can do that.  But that is NOT the case for the majority of the dropped resources.  The machine price has very little relation to what I pay for them in the contract markets.

This is not the result of speculation.  It is simple arbitrage.  A (small) number of players with access sell to a large number of players without.

Edited September 26, 2018 by John Jacob Astor

[Hethwill]

Correct. Speculation by contracts. That's what we have, hence we cannot have the insurance cover ( and demand payment ) of such exorbitant prices, else the entire premise of - supporting the low rank cadets loss - is lost, and it becomes a speculative money printing machine which in turn will flood the world with no-value coin.

[John Jacob Astor]

23 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Correct. Speculation by contracts. That's what we have, hence we cannot have the insurance cover ( and demand payment ) of such exorbitant prices, else the entire premise of - supporting the low rank cadets loss - is lost, and it becomes a speculative money printing machine which in turn will flood the world with no-value coin.

I would agree with that.

Which is why this targeted crafting subsidy (it really isn't insurance) probably ought to be limited to the AI material costs of the ship.   No upgrades.  No bonus fudges of any kind. 

I'm not even wild about the "+ small%".  That probably ought to be set to zero until the effect of the subsidy is actually demonstrated.

Edited September 26, 2018 by John Jacob Astor
clarification.

[Jim Beamreach]

1 hour ago, Crow said:

Thanks @admin a step in the right direction and very welcome.🤗

Now what about pvp/gold for all participants of a battle regardless of loss or victory ??🤔

With PvP-marks and gold for done damage we woud not need a Insurance i think. But it is to easy to make so lets make it more complicate.

[Hethwill]

You have it correct. It is extraction value  

Hence, the value will be exactly what costs, barebones, to build a ship.

( secondary effect: greedy crafters will become naked and prices on the "flea" market will come crashing down )

Asking development of the insurance is cool but if you going to do it, do it in a age of sail sense:

- part of the ship ( never full coverage )

- full cargo or partial

- obliged to convoy ( setup trader event convoys ) 

[admin]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

That's exactly why other, MMOs-who-shall-not-be-named (insert ridiculous moderation rules about talking about other games grumble here) have it right. 

 

You can of course provide examples from other games if those features are comparable and can actually be used in the 18th century caribbean. Posts like " you guys should copy/ borrow the trade goods system from BD or trade packs from Archeage and here is why…." are very different from "Hey login to amazing BD and look at this list of great features" which sound like advertising. 

[Angus MacDuff]

7 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

You have it correct. It is extraction value  

Hence, the value will be exactly what costs, barebones, to build a ship.

( secondary effect: greedy crafters will become naked and prices on the "flea" market will come crashing down )

Asking development of the insurance is cool but if you going to do it, do it in a age of sail sense:

- part of the ship ( never full coverage )

- full cargo or partial

- obliged to convoy ( setup trader event convoys ) 

Hmmmmm…"Your insurance is void because you chose to sail an unescorted TBrig with no guns....."

[Hethwill]

12 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Hmmmmm…"Your insurance is void because you chose to sail an unescorted TBrig with no guns....."

*chuckles* "You ganker!"... "serious...!?...I'm in a privateer versus two indiamans !".... "yeah but I have no cannon, so it is a gank as i cannot defend!" *true story*

But seriously, IF an advanced insurance system takes off i'd LOVE to see a regular system of trade convoys being setup, "regular" NPC convoys events from capital X to capital Y, and have the players that want to see their cargo insured have to participate of the convoy. It can be setup according to historical routes and lines of navigation.

[Barbancourt]

26 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

But seriously, IF an advanced insurance system takes off i'd LOVE to see a regular system of trade convoys being setup, "regular" NPC convoys events from capital X to capital Y, and have the players that want to see their cargo insured have to participate of the convoy. It can be setup according to historical routes and lines of navigation.

"Capital X to Capital Y"?  Who would be that suicidal, and why would suicide be insured?

[Hethwill]

Just now, Barbancourt said:

"Capital X to Capital Y"?  Who would be that suicidal, and why would suicide be insured?

Was an example -.- ( and it was done like that ) and why would it be suicidal ? Anyway we move away from the true subject.

First iteration of Insurance.

Ship is sunk in instance - in that same battle! - insurance will cover material loss corresponding to the ship construction.

What tiny details this means rests to be seen. 

For example:

- How to Insure a ship I capture ? Surely there must be a "insure" price option at port !? ( obviously NOT at historical insurance prize rates, or else with non stop wars we will be paying.... over the rooftop! ).

 

 

[Barbancourt]

7 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

why would it be suicidal ?

Sailing to an enemy capital usually is?

[Hethwill]

1 minute ago, Barbancourt said:

Sailing to an enemy capital usually is?

Doesn't mean it is a "non stop" trip . A convoy from Boston to Havana would stop along the way.

In any case is not what we getting. We getting simple basic insurance of the ship.

So, arm your trader, don't be greedy.

Oh, and ask a buddy to help you out, just in case.

 

[DeRuyter]

On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 9:42 AM, Vernon Merrill said:

Side point.  I’m not familiar with Lloyd’s ever insuring a Royal Navy vessel, however...  I may be wrong, but I don’t think so.  

Kind of immaterial to game play, but just kinda making discussion. 🙂

 

5 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

my point was not really even lloyds insuring the royal navy ... just that all insurance started with the insuring of ships ...a trader would more than likely be insured by lloyds .. if you want to get picky the royal navy didnt require its captains in this period to finance the building of their own ships as we do in game ... however before you get picky again .. many captains used their own money improve their ships and buy extra stores gunpowder over and above that issued

During the War of 1812 merchants ships sometimes sailed uninsured because the captain could not afford the high wartime rates, kept high in part because of privateers. I would bet the even the EIC had reinsurance with Lloyd's though. Here is an example of insurance for the cargo of gold carried by an RN ship, HMS Lutine . Lloyd's paid out 25,000 pounds on the claim. The ship was lost in a storm and the Dutch claimed the wreck as a war prize. Salvage operations took years and the ship's bell is not in Lloyd's office in London. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Lutine_(1779)

@admin A couple of questions and points:

1. What about insuring cargo?  I know the OP is about insurance for the ship itself, but often (like modules in NA) the cargo was more valuable than ship. You could add the option to buy insurance upon buying the goods, only good for one voyage and pays if the cargo is sunk or captured. 

2. I wanted to bump the point made by @Busterbloodvessel that a ship would have a insurance certificate good until captured or sunk and expires with one payout. Makes sense and avoids griefing by denying payout through capture and multi- use exploit. 

 

[TrackTerror]

I do not think insurance is of critical importance at this time of development.

Wheras it is a nice feature I would rather see promised roadmap targets beeing dealt with first. This imo could wait until after release.

[Bluetooth]

14 hours ago, Jim Beamreach said:

With PvP-marks and gold for done damage we woud not need a Insurance i think. But it is to easy to make so lets make it more complicate

Let me explain this for you.

The question I asked was for gold and PvP for losers in combat, for inflicting damage in that combat.

If you had bothered to read the topic you would have seen that, insurance is only for crafted ships.

So store bought and DLC are not included.

[Sir Malachy Karrde]

I've always thought marks should be awarded based on damage done, not on kills. Say 1000 or 2000 damage per pvp mark or something like that. That would make some of the more pointless battles have at least some sort of reward for time spent. 

 

Edited September 28, 2018 by Sir Malachy Karrde

[z4ys]

3 hours ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

I've always thought marks should be awarded based on damage done, not on kills. Say 1000 or 2000 damage per pvp mark or something like that. That would make some of the more pointless battles have at least some sort of reward for time spent. 

 

And farming/alt farming much easier

[Hethwill]

4 hours ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

I've always thought marks should be awarded based on damage done, not on kills. Say 1000 or 2000 damage per pvp mark or something like that. That would make some of the more pointless battles have at least some sort of reward for time spent. 

 

It is like that IF the enemy sinks. A group battles it out and "marks" are given by damage done shares, the kill is awarded to the player that inflicts more damage.

 

[Sir Malachy Karrde]

6 hours ago, z4ys said:

And farming/alt farming much easier

It's not particularly difficult As it is. There will always be people that exploit the system. Good developers include anti cheat programs embedded in their products. 

[Sir Malachy Karrde]

5 hours ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

It is like that IF the enemy sinks. A group battles it out and "marks" are given by damage done shares, the kill is awarded to the player that inflicts more damage.

 

And you get jack squat if your side loses, whether you play well or not. All goes back to risk vs reward for time spent. This game is long on risk but short on reward. 

Edited September 28, 2018 by Sir Malachy Karrde

[Hethwill]

Just now, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

And you get jack squat if your side loses, whether you play well or not. 

That's not what you wrote. I limited myself to read what was written. Sorry for that.

Hence insurance will cover your loss when you sink. So make sure you do not sink and that you win ?

Bring friends ! Big battles ! More chances to win ! 😎

[Eyesore]

Will insurance-payments go up for captains that lose their ship and/or cargo every time?

Like a bonus-malus-system (car-insurance)? The more you have the insurancecompany making payments to you because you screwed up, the higher the fee will be (the fee comes down offcourse after some time without 'accidents'?  To combat insurrance-scamming a little bit 😉    (But that might eventually undercut the point of the OP maybe?)

[jodgi]

18 minutes ago, Eyesore said:

But that might eventually undercut the point of the OP maybe?)

Exactly.

People should feel free to extract resources, haul them, click, go to sea, sink, collect insurance and end up with slightly less money.