wasa fir/fir for pvp?

[o Barão]

What is your guys opinions in having a crazy fir/fir wasa for pvp?

The sailing profile is better than the bellona and haves 6 bow chasers and 4 stern chasers.

It is possible to reach 15.5 knots with some upgrades?

 

Too crazy idea?

[Capn Rocko]

never go full retard (fir/fir)

[Guest]

It doesn't. Unless they've buffed it a bit again since I was away..

 

[Aster]

The wasa has a low cargo hold which makes it slow down a lot with repairs and guns. You are probably better off going with an ingermanland.

[Liq]

fir fir generally is never a wise choice for PvP.

Unless you see uber ganking alias chasing down a lown small frigate in a group of 5 fir fir wasas as PvP.

[o Barão]

1 hour ago, Banished Privateer said:

Wasa is extremely slow, how does it have better profile than Bellona? 

https://sites.google.com/view/speedtrials/lineships

1 hour ago, Aster said:

The wasa has a low cargo hold which makes it slow down a lot with repairs and guns. You are probably better off going with an ingermanland.

Yes you are right. good call. 

1 hour ago, Liq said:

fir fir generally is never a wise choice for PvP.

Unless you see uber ganking alias chasing down a lown small frigate in a group of 5 fir fir wasas as PvP.

Depends what you want for pvp. If you want to gank is one thing, if you want to solo hunt traders or bully smaller ships and still have the power to choose who to fight you will need a fast ship. Now if a wasa could be able to reach 15 knots with those 4 stern chasers it would be almost impossible to catch her and could be an amazing ship for hunting. But that sounds impossible unless maybe a gold fir / fir wasa very fast? 

Edited September 23, 2018 by no one

[HachiRoku]

bad for crew losses imo. HP wise I think fir fir does the job but if you are to fight a carro fitted frigate close range you might be in trouble. 

[o Barão]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Sigh.

Fir/fir will leave you incredibly frail.. Speed-fit Wasa's are fine if you will never find yourself in a situation where you have faster ships to disable you or fighting a group.  Mods would likely be key here, and you'd still be better off with Teak/Fir or something with a bit of thickness and angling capacity. But even so, I think the number of times you'd take one of those out solo are pretty slim.  In a pack, they're quite effective, however.

Let's say I build a blue wasa fir/ fir. Do you think it is possible to get around 14 knots? If so what upgrades, skills you would use?

 

[Raf Van Boom]

everything with +speed on it in every slot, can't go wrong with that.

[William Death]

2 hours ago, no one said:

Let's say I build a blue wasa fir/ fir. Do you think it is possible to get around 14 knots? If so what upgrades, skills you would use?

 

 

2 hours ago, Le Raf Boom said:

everything with +speed on it in every slot, can't go wrong with that.

Do this^ and you might.

I don't recall the base value right off, but it *should* be possible to hit 14 with decent repairs. Assuming you go:

Copper/Navy Hull/Bovenwinds  + Art of Shiphandling + Trim Speed (if you have that, if not use something for repair or boarding) + Light Carriages.

Don't go overboard with repairs. Maybe you'll reach 14kn, or very close this way.  Easier if you get more slots.

 

I'd not be concerned about HP and thickness because even fir/fir bounces if you angle. And you won't be fighting big fleets with it. 1v1 or 2v1 or 3v1 vs average players in average frigates will be well within her capabilities. I sail a fir/fir Constitution fairly regularly that hits 14kn. I can bounce L'Ocean broadsides, given a small angle. Even taking a full broadside square on, I didn't lose all HP. 

Its all in how you handle the ship, really. 

 

On the other hand, lightly built Ingermanlands (or Wapens or other 4th rates) are much easier to buff speed because speed trim 4-5 is much more common than 1-3, and finding 4/5 builds that are blue is fairly common in freeports (I bought a 4/5 Connie for 700k at Tortue and I've seen several others there for sale). 

 

As a rambling note, I've been considering a fir Bellona for solo PvP lately, but I haven't played around with builds and setups enough yet to decide on anything.

[AeRoTR]

You will be shocked when a frigate stern rakes you with carros. It will be magical. 

[o Barão]

3 hours ago, William Death said:

 

Do this^ and you might.

I don't recall the base value right off, but it *should* be possible to hit 14 with decent repairs. Assuming you go:

Copper/Navy Hull/Bovenwinds  + Art of Shiphandling + Trim Speed (if you have that, if not use something for repair or boarding) + Light Carriages.

Don't go overboard with repairs. Maybe you'll reach 14kn, or very close this way.  Easier if you get more slots.

 

I'd not be concerned about HP and thickness because even fir/fir bounces if you angle. And you won't be fighting big fleets with it. 1v1 or 2v1 or 3v1 vs average players in average frigates will be well within her capabilities. I sail a fir/fir Constitution fairly regularly that hits 14kn. I can bounce L'Ocean broadsides, given a small angle. Even taking a full broadside square on, I didn't lose all HP. 

Its all in how you handle the ship, really. 

 

On the other hand, lightly built Ingermanlands (or Wapens or other 4th rates) are much easier to buff speed because speed trim 4-5 is much more common than 1-3, and finding 4/5 builds that are blue is fairly common in freeports (I bought a 4/5 Connie for 700k at Tortue and I've seen several others there for sale). 

 

As a rambling note, I've been considering a fir Bellona for solo PvP lately, but I haven't played around with builds and setups enough yet to decide on anything.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. Much appreciated.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, no one said:

Let's say I build a blue wasa fir/ fir. Do you think it is possible to get around 14 knots? If so what upgrades, skills you would use?

 

Okay. If you go absolutely all-out speed, you could get to 13.75 kn. Details explained below.

Woods = Fir/fir
Permanent mods = Copper Plating + Navy Hull Refit + Naval Clock
Skillbooks = Optimized ballast + Art of ship handling + Art of proper cargo distribution + Trim Speed + Light Carriages
Guns = Max caliber mediums on the bottom two decks + Carronades on top + Max caliber longs for chasers 
Perks = Optimized hold required
Repairs = 50 (hull) + 50 (rig) + 300 (rum) - This is already WAY below what I would recommend taking

This is assuming its a normal 3/5 ship without speed trims. 

A setup like this is already low on repairs, and by going for speed with every skillbook, you will have a difficult time standing up to anything larger than a light frigate. I would not recommend going with a setup like this. The speed was found using a speed calculator I made a while back, I don't have a ship like this
 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Guest

[Percival Merewether]

My 3/5 TT Agamemnon w/ Mediums does 13.8 in Open World and 14.3 in battle. For that setup Navy Loodsman and Elite Spanish is essential - be aware, your upwind speed will suffer greatly. I occasionally use this setup for solo hunting, it is important to note though; this is only because of my personal interest in that particular ship and its history. Game-wise it makes very little sense. I imagine the Wasa is the same.

I'd reccommend a frigate (Endymion/Trinc) any day for solo PvP. Always bring more hull repairs than you "need". For me, a fir/fir Wasa is a dream target in a frigate because you will lose around 30-50 crew per broadside - basically free PvP-marks. Avoid fir/fir whenever possible.

[o Barão]

5 hours ago, EliteDelta said:

Okay. If you go absolutely all-out speed, you could get to 13.75 kn. Details explained below.

Woods = Fir/fir
Permanent mods = Copper Plating + Navy Hull Refit + Naval Clock
Skillbooks = Optimized ballast + Art of ship handling + Art of proper cargo distribution + Trim Speed + Light Carriages
Guns = Max caliber mediums on the bottom two decks + Carronades on top + Max caliber longs for chasers 
Perks = Optimized hold required
Repairs = 50 (hull) + 50 (rig) + 300 (rum) - This is already WAY below what I would recommend taking

This is assuming its a normal 3/5 ship without speed trims. 

A setup like this is already low on repairs, and by going for speed with every skillbook, you will have a difficult time standing up to anything larger than a light frigate. I would not recommend going with a setup like this. The speed was found using a speed calculator I made a while back, I don't have a ship like this
 

Ok so in your maths it is easier to get the conclusion that is not worth it. Thank you for another detailed explanation.

2 hours ago, Percival Merewether said:

My 3/5 TT Agamemnon w/ Mediums does 13.8 in Open World and 14.3 in battle. For that setup Navy Loodsman and Elite Spanish is essential - be aware, your upwind speed will suffer greatly. I occasionally use this setup for solo hunting, it is important to note though; this is only because of my personal interest in that particular ship and its history. Game-wise it makes very little sense. I imagine the Wasa is the same.

I'd reccommend a frigate (Endymion/Trinc) any day for solo PvP. Always bring more hull repairs than you "need". For me, a fir/fir Wasa is a dream target in a frigate because you will lose around 30-50 crew per broadside - basically free PvP-marks. Avoid fir/fir whenever possible.

Endymion and trinco are always good ships to consider for solo pvp. I am thinking now if not a fir/fir indefatigable or fir/fir connie. These 2 ships already have a very good thickness base value and have better cargo. Studying now the sailing profile i see that the endymion have a better sailing qualities than the trinco and haves better guns, also Renonmee, frigate , pirate have excelent speed to run away from hercules the more you are close to 180 degrees however these 3 last ships don't have the firepower i want to bring for solo pvp. Diana however it was a nice suprise . She can reach good speed close to 180 degrees and have nice cannons a option to consider.

1 hour ago, springby said:

I think the Wasa is one of the most odd ships in the entire lineup

It wasn't supposed to be like that. The reason it is an odd ship is because she never was 3th rate , she is a 64 gun ship of the line like the aggamenon. she is only is a 3th rate atm because we don't have many ships in that category. I hope the moment the Montanes and the Wrecker arrive in game this could be fix by the devs .

Edited September 24, 2018 by no one

[Percival Merewether]

9 minutes ago, no one said:

Ok so in your maths it is easier to get the conclusion that is not worth it. Thank you for another detailed explanation.

Endymion and trinco are always good ships to consider for solo pvp. I am thinking now if not a fir/fir indefatigable or fir/fir connie. These 2 ships already have a very good thickness base value and have better cargo. Studying now the sailing profile i see that the endymion have a better sailing qualities than the trinco and haves better guns.

The main problem with fir/fir is not thickness, it's crew resistance. your crew die easier than all other ships no matter how thick you make it.

In the Trinc vs Endy discussion, remember that higher caliber does not mean better gun - I personally like to run 18lbs on the Endymion with 32lb carros on top.

9 minutes ago, no one said:

It wasn't supposed to be like that. The reason it is an odd ship is because she never was 3th rate , she is a 64 gun ship of the line like the aggamenon. she is only is a 3th rate atm because we don't have many ships in that category. I hope the moment the Montanes and the Wrecker arrive in game this could be fix by the devs .

That is wrong, a 64-gun ship of the line is a 3rd rate in real life. they are classes wrong in-game for balance reasons.

[William Death]

2 minutes ago, no one said:

Endymion and trinco are always good ships to consider for solo pvp. I am thinking now if not a fir/fir indefatigable or fir/fir connie. These 2 ships already have a very good thickness base value and have better cargo. Studying now the sailing profile i see that the endymion have a better sailing qualities than the trinco and haves better guns, also Renonmee, frigate , pirate have excelent speed to run away from hercules the more you are close to 180 degrees however these 3 last ships don't have the firepower i want to bring for solo pvp. Diana however it was a nice suprise . She can reach good speed close to 180 degrees and have nice cannons a option to consider.

I've never tried a fir Indefatigable, but I've had good luck with teak/teak and teak/wo Indefatigables with Elite Spanish Rig. They do roughly 14kn downwind, or a little more, and have excellent brawling capabilities. But the sailing profile upwind is already not very good and adding Elite Spanish makes it even worse, so many ships can escape upwind. Just something to think about.

I can 100% recommend a fir/fir Constitution, so long as you carefully sail her. Thickness is already very high, as you pointed out, so nerfing it with the fir/fir really isn't an issue. Base speed isn't the best, so you'll really need to use lots of good speed mods and books, but you can hit roughly 13.5kn with fir/fir copper + bovenwinds + navy hull + art of shiphandling + speed trim. That is carrying about 100 of each repair, and 350 rum. Hopefully Connie gets a speed buff soon (I think Admin hinted that he had plans to buff Connie a bit), that'll make her more viable for solo PvP.

Trincomalee and Endymion are both fast enough base speeds that you can go teak/teak and get enough speed to be viable for solo PvP. I'd rank them equal (along with Diana) for fighting capability. The 24s on Endymion and Diana are nice for the pen, but the 18s on the Trincomalee do just fine against most targets you come across, and have the advantage of a quicker reload. Also Trinco has more guns than either, so that helps her out in the damage-dealing department. Diana's speed is a bit low for solo PvP unless you go with a light build. I've had good luck with a fir/fir Diana, but I'm sure a teak/teak build would be fine if you had more than 3 slots to equip speed mods.

Renommee, Pirate Frigate, and Frigate are all nice, but I don't sail them very often because for me (as you said), they don't hit hard enough. Also their masts are too flimsy for my use as well. Connie, Trinco, Endy, Indy, and Diana can all lose masts vs larger opponents, but at least it takes a concentrated effort and a bit of time. Renommee or Surprise loses a mast in 5-6 hits from anything bigger than a brig, and the Frigate class ships aren't much better.

 

Don't worry about crew damage with fir/fir. Crew is meaningless unless you plan to board or allow yourself to be boarded. As long as you have enough crew to man sailing 50% and 50% of one side gunnery, you'll be fine (but you'll need proper reload management skills, only firing the guns that will do work). 

[o Barão]

2 hours ago, Percival Merewether said:

The main problem with fir/fir is not thickness, it's crew resistance. your crew die easier than all other ships no matter how thick you make it.

In the Trinc vs Endy discussion, remember that higher caliber does not mean better gun - I personally like to run 18lbs on the Endymion with 32lb carros on top.

That is wrong, a 64-gun ship of the line is a 3rd rate in real life. they are classes wrong in-game for balance reasons.

"That is wrong, a 64-gun ship of the line is a 3rd rate in real life. they are classes wrong in-game for balance reasons." yes you are correct. my mistake.

Edited September 24, 2018 by no one

[Aster]

Personally I enjoy the le Hermione for solo pvp. its very fast and gets the bow and stern guns with 9s,12s or 24s,32s on the side with some fairly cheap mods like a French or gaz head its a very affordable pvp ship. If you want to go all out with elite Spanish it can do 15.5knt depending on what books/mods you have.

[o Barão]

4 hours ago, William Death said:

I've never tried a fir Indefatigable, but I've had good luck with teak/teak and teak/wo Indefatigables with Elite Spanish Rig. They do roughly 14kn downwind, or a little more, and have excellent brawling capabilities. But the sailing profile upwind is already not very good and adding Elite Spanish makes it even worse, so many ships can escape upwind. Just something to think about.

I can 100% recommend a fir/fir Constitution, so long as you carefully sail her. Thickness is already very high, as you pointed out, so nerfing it with the fir/fir really isn't an issue. Base speed isn't the best, so you'll really need to use lots of good speed mods and books, but you can hit roughly 13.5kn with fir/fir copper + bovenwinds + navy hull + art of shiphandling + speed trim. That is carrying about 100 of each repair, and 350 rum. Hopefully Connie gets a speed buff soon (I think Admin hinted that he had plans to buff Connie a bit), that'll make her more viable for solo PvP.

Trincomalee and Endymion are both fast enough base speeds that you can go teak/teak and get enough speed to be viable for solo PvP. I'd rank them equal (along with Diana) for fighting capability. The 24s on Endymion and Diana are nice for the pen, but the 18s on the Trincomalee do just fine against most targets you come across, and have the advantage of a quicker reload. Also Trinco has more guns than either, so that helps her out in the damage-dealing department. Diana's speed is a bit low for solo PvP unless you go with a light build. I've had good luck with a fir/fir Diana, but I'm sure a teak/teak build would be fine if you had more than 3 slots to equip speed mods.

Renommee, Pirate Frigate, and Frigate are all nice, but I don't sail them very often because for me (as you said), they don't hit hard enough. Also their masts are too flimsy for my use as well. Connie, Trinco, Endy, Indy, and Diana can all lose masts vs larger opponents, but at least it takes a concentrated effort and a bit of time. Renommee or Surprise loses a mast in 5-6 hits from anything bigger than a brig, and the Frigate class ships aren't much better.

 

Don't worry about crew damage with fir/fir. Crew is meaningless unless you plan to board or allow yourself to be boarded. As long as you have enough crew to man sailing 50% and 50% of one side gunnery, you'll be fine (but you'll need proper reload management skills, only firing the guns that will do work). 

yes. I did ask my clanmate to make a fir/crew endy for me but i didn't like the result.  Lose to many thickness just to win a minimal increment in speed. Yes the crew bonus more hammocks it can be nice for boarding but in the end i got the impression it wasn't worth it. So in my conclusion is better to make a teak/teak , teak/crew or go all fir/fir. I also trying to decide who is better between for solo pvp, if the endy or the trinco. Yes the endy have slight better sailing profile but it seems the trinco turns better . ( for me it is very important for a 5th rate that turns quicky so i can get to my bouncing angle asap ). Other important considerations is that the trinco have 4 bow chasers but no stern chasers which could be a big problem if trying to run away from someone but of course is great for chasing. Also i never sailed in a trinco and players says it is famous for the crazy heel. 

So i ask you this. If you had to choose between this 2 ships what would be your choice and why.

Edited September 24, 2018 by no one

[William Death]

2 hours ago, no one said:

yes. I did ask my clanmate to make a fir/crew endy for me but i didn't like the result.  Lose to many thickness just to win a minimal increment in speed. Yes the crew bonus more hammocks it can be nice for boarding but in the end i got the impression it wasn't worth it. So in my conclusion is better to make a teak/teak , teak/crew or go all fir/fir. I also trying to decide who is better between for solo pvp, if the endy or the trinco. Yes the endy have slight better sailing profile but it seems the trinco turns better . ( for me it is very important for a 5th rate that turns quicky so i can get to my bouncing angle asap ). Other important considerations is that the trinco have 4 bow chasers but no stern chasers which could be a big problem if trying to run away from someone but of course is great for chasing. Also i never sailed in a trinco and players says it is famous for the crazy heel. 

So i ask you this. If you had to choose between this 2 ships what would be your choice and why.

 

A note about crewspace: I never recommend it for anything besides Requin, and even now after the nerf to it, it may not be worth it. For PvP builds for frigates: (order of fastest to tankiest):  Fir/Fir, Mahog/Fir,  Teak/Cedar, Teak/Teak,  Teak/White Oak.

 

Trinco vs Endy:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Ignore any of the green bonus or red negatives, focus on the base stats in white text [I was in a different ship when I took the screenshot, so the values shown are the true base values]). Somewhere I've got a Trinco that is nearly identical to that Endy (which would have made for an easier to understand screenshot), but the base values can make the same comparison.

 

So, Trinc vs Endy.....Thats one of the toughest choices for me. So short answer: I use both, and sail whichever I feel like at the time.

 

Looking at stats, Endy seems better on paper, with her higher HP, thickness, base speed, crew count and gun caliber. But the numbers don't tell the whole truth. There is the manual sail force, turn acceleration, and hull shape to take into account.

Taking into account turn acceleration and manual sail force, in my experience, Trinco does handle noticeably better. I'm certainly not saying Endy handles poorly, just that Trinco handles better by comparison. And on top of that, Trinco has more guns and a better turn rate base.

Hence, why I call the ships equal. Where one has advantage in speed and toughness, (and a bit in firepower), the other has advantage in handling and gun count.

Specific traits:

Endymion has (laser guided) stern guns. Big bonus for when you have to run away. But has only two bow chasers, so many players run a smaller caliber for the faster reload to keep enemy tagged, but this has the negative of doing less damage if you shoot chainshot through the smaller caliber guns vs the 9pdrs you could have had there.

Trincomalee has 4x bow chasers. Big bonus for chasing because 4x 9pd chainshot can really do damage. Lacks stern chasers so you have less ability to slow down chasing vessels without turning to fire broadsides.

Speaking of guns, most players run long guns on the bottom, and 32pd carronades on top. A few run the other way around, and a few like all carronade or all long gun loadouts. Just remember that Trinco gets 11 top deck guns per side vs Endy's 10 per side. Otherwise they're the same. Try them and see what you like.

Trinco's heel is famous, but not at all a negative, if you handle it right. Sometimes it can even be helpful (like when chaining the sails of a large ship, you want to make sure you get topsails and topgallants chained too, not just the courses). And Endymion is not a particularly stable gun platform either. More solid than Trincomalee, but not by any great order of magnitude. Just follow proper anti-leak procedures (manage sails to flatten your ship when your enemy is in a position to place leaks into you) to avoid being leaked out, and if you receive leaks, remember to keep them out of the water till your crew has had time to at least partially repair them.

Endymion has a negative not always mentioned: its a long ship, with very straight sides (little curvature for-and-aft); but it does have a fairly good hull shape in regards to her tumblehome (top to bottom curvature of the sides). For this reason, bouncing shots with her *sometimes* requires a bit more careful angling because while you may get enough angle on one end of  your ship to bounce, a smart enemy can train his guns around to the other end of your ship that is less angled to him and fire before you finish angling all the way.

Trincomalee, on the other hand, is a shorter ship with a more pronounced fore-and-aft curve, so angling with it is *usually* a bit easier (although sometimes that curvature can work against you and make you bounce less). Its a subtle difference that doesn't always come up in every battle, but it is noticeable if you're dueling or fighting another competent player. And again, sometimes these differences can work for your advantage, sometimes they hurt you. 

Enough rambling! I should pick one: (I really can't pick one for myself)

So, general recommendation Trinco vs. Endy for most players: Endymion. 

Having chasers at the bow and stern is the easiest way to start in PvP. You can keep fleeing targets tagged with 2 bow guns, or you can use chain out of your rear guns to help you run away.

Using 24s on it forces you to either git gud at reload management or git sunk. /incoming veteran rant\ It astonishes me that so called "pros" complain all the time about frigates (especially Endy and Trinco and Connie) being undercrewed. They. Are. Not. I know they feel like they're undercrewed, but they're not, really. Its operator error. Fighting both sides of the ship at once is a luxury afforded to lineships and light frigates, both of which have large crews in proportion to their armament. If you want to fight both sides, you'll need to plan the battle carefully. I rarely find myself waiting for a broadside to reload because I only fire the guns that do damage. If my top deck of carronades won't pen, or won't do meaningful damage, I'm not going to shoot them. If they don't get fired, they don't have to be reloaded. So though I may only have 70% of my cannon crew requirement filled, I'm at 100% reload rate because I don't have crew reloading guns that weren't fired. /rant over\

 

Thats not to say Trinco can't be a fine frigate to go PvP with. Personally, I've always felt that Trinco is a tiny bit more capable in brawls, due to her better agility.

Or, put another way, if you asked me to pick one of the two to fight 3v1 (vs average players in various 5th rates), I'd be likely to choose Trincomalee because I won't need the pen of 24s to fight other frigates, but I will need the turn rate to bounce shots quicker. 

On the other hand, if you asked me to pick one to try to solo an average player in a heavy 4th or 3rd rate, I'd probably pick Endy so that I have the option to demast him with my 24s. Well, you can do it with 18s, but 24s make it easier and safer.

 

Perhaps try one of each and see how you like them. A Teak/Teak version of either shouldn't be much more than 400-600k from a crafter from ports with good shipyards. Sail them a bit with basic mods, get a feel for how you like it, and make a decision. Then sell whichever you like least (or don't sell it and start your collection of ships you don't use but don't want to get rid of). 

Whichever you decide to pick, keep an eye out at freeports and busy national capitals for a good deal on special one. I've bought several nice blue 4/5 ships for cheap (700k for a Fir/Fir 4/5 Connie and 800k for the 4/5 Teak/Teak Trinco pictured above).

Edited September 24, 2018 by William Death
Pictures looked badly placed. Maybe its better now.

[Capn Rocko]

Endy and Trinco require 2 different play styles and if you know how to sail both ships, both can be equal in a fight. Since you are building fir ships I would assume that rage boarding and running away from fights are your top priorities. With that said, I would recommend the Endy since it has stern chasers and can push ships around a little easier. However, when fighting against other frigates, you will be at a turning disadvantage so demasting is important. If you don't snipe masts, you are wasting the firepower on the Endy considering that you can get more DPS out of a Trinco with carronades.  

I personally have no preference between the 2 ships, I just know I will have to sail each one differently. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Capn Rocko

[o Barão]

7 hours ago, William Death said:

 

A note about crewspace: I never recommend it for anything besides Requin, and even now after the nerf to it, it may not be worth it. For PvP builds for frigates: (order of fastest to tankiest):  Fir/Fir, Mahog/Fir,  Teak/Cedar, Teak/Teak,  Teak/White Oak.

 

Trinco vs Endy:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Ignore any of the green bonus or red negatives, focus on the base stats in white text [I was in a different ship when I took the screenshot, so the values shown are the true base values]). Somewhere I've got a Trinco that is nearly identical to that Endy (which would have made for an easier to understand screenshot), but the base values can make the same comparison.

 

So, Trinc vs Endy.....Thats one of the toughest choices for me. So short answer: I use both, and sail whichever I feel like at the time.

 

Looking at stats, Endy seems better on paper, with her higher HP, thickness, base speed, crew count and gun caliber. But the numbers don't tell the whole truth. There is the manual sail force, turn acceleration, and hull shape to take into account.

Taking into account turn acceleration and manual sail force, in my experience, Trinco does handle noticeably better. I'm certainly not saying Endy handles poorly, just that Trinco handles better by comparison. And on top of that, Trinco has more guns and a better turn rate base.

Hence, why I call the ships equal. Where one has advantage in speed and toughness, (and a bit in firepower), the other has advantage in handling and gun count.

Specific traits:

Endymion has (laser guided) stern guns. Big bonus for when you have to run away. But has only two bow chasers, so many players run a smaller caliber for the faster reload to keep enemy tagged, but this has the negative of doing less damage if you shoot chainshot through the smaller caliber guns vs the 9pdrs you could have had there.

Trincomalee has 4x bow chasers. Big bonus for chasing because 4x 9pd chainshot can really do damage. Lacks stern chasers so you have less ability to slow down chasing vessels without turning to fire broadsides.

Speaking of guns, most players run long guns on the bottom, and 32pd carronades on top. A few run the other way around, and a few like all carronade or all long gun loadouts. Just remember that Trinco gets 11 top deck guns per side vs Endy's 10 per side. Otherwise they're the same. Try them and see what you like.

Trinco's heel is famous, but not at all a negative, if you handle it right. Sometimes it can even be helpful (like when chaining the sails of a large ship, you want to make sure you get topsails and topgallants chained too, not just the courses). And Endymion is not a particularly stable gun platform either. More solid than Trincomalee, but not by any great order of magnitude. Just follow proper anti-leak procedures (manage sails to flatten your ship when your enemy is in a position to place leaks into you) to avoid being leaked out, and if you receive leaks, remember to keep them out of the water till your crew has had time to at least partially repair them.

Endymion has a negative not always mentioned: its a long ship, with very straight sides (little curvature for-and-aft); but it does have a fairly good hull shape in regards to her tumblehome (top to bottom curvature of the sides). For this reason, bouncing shots with her *sometimes* requires a bit more careful angling because while you may get enough angle on one end of  your ship to bounce, a smart enemy can train his guns around to the other end of your ship that is less angled to him and fire before you finish angling all the way.

Trincomalee, on the other hand, is a shorter ship with a more pronounced fore-and-aft curve, so angling with it is *usually* a bit easier (although sometimes that curvature can work against you and make you bounce less). Its a subtle difference that doesn't always come up in every battle, but it is noticeable if you're dueling or fighting another competent player. And again, sometimes these differences can work for your advantage, sometimes they hurt you. 

Enough rambling! I should pick one: (I really can't pick one for myself)

So, general recommendation Trinco vs. Endy for most players: Endymion. 

Having chasers at the bow and stern is the easiest way to start in PvP. You can keep fleeing targets tagged with 2 bow guns, or you can use chain out of your rear guns to help you run away.

Using 24s on it forces you to either git gud at reload management or git sunk. /incoming veteran rant\ It astonishes me that so called "pros" complain all the time about frigates (especially Endy and Trinco and Connie) being undercrewed. They. Are. Not. I know they feel like they're undercrewed, but they're not, really. Its operator error. Fighting both sides of the ship at once is a luxury afforded to lineships and light frigates, both of which have large crews in proportion to their armament. If you want to fight both sides, you'll need to plan the battle carefully. I rarely find myself waiting for a broadside to reload because I only fire the guns that do damage. If my top deck of carronades won't pen, or won't do meaningful damage, I'm not going to shoot them. If they don't get fired, they don't have to be reloaded. So though I may only have 70% of my cannon crew requirement filled, I'm at 100% reload rate because I don't have crew reloading guns that weren't fired. /rant over\

 

Thats not to say Trinco can't be a fine frigate to go PvP with. Personally, I've always felt that Trinco is a tiny bit more capable in brawls, due to her better agility.

Or, put another way, if you asked me to pick one of the two to fight 3v1 (vs average players in various 5th rates), I'd be likely to choose Trincomalee because I won't need the pen of 24s to fight other frigates, but I will need the turn rate to bounce shots quicker. 

On the other hand, if you asked me to pick one to try to solo an average player in a heavy 4th or 3rd rate, I'd probably pick Endy so that I have the option to demast him with my 24s. Well, you can do it with 18s, but 24s make it easier and safer.

 

Perhaps try one of each and see how you like them. A Teak/Teak version of either shouldn't be much more than 400-600k from a crafter from ports with good shipyards. Sail them a bit with basic mods, get a feel for how you like it, and make a decision. Then sell whichever you like least (or don't sell it and start your collection of ships you don't use but don't want to get rid of). 

Whichever you decide to pick, keep an eye out at freeports and busy national capitals for a good deal on special one. I've bought several nice blue 4/5 ships for cheap (700k for a Fir/Fir 4/5 Connie and 800k for the 4/5 Teak/Teak Trinco pictured above).

 

45 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

Endy and Trinco require 2 different play styles and if you know how to sail both ships, both can be equal in a fight. Since you are building fir ships I would assume that rage boarding and running away from fights are your top priorities. With that said, I would recommend the Endy since it has stern chasers and can push ships around a little easier. However, when fighting against other frigates, you will be at a turning disadvantage so demasting is important. If you don't snipe masts, you are wasting the firepower on the Endy considering that you can get more DPS out of a Trinco with carronades.  

I personally have no preference between the 2 ships, I just know I will have to sail each one differently. 

Thank you both for sharing your opinions. I am going to try both and also going to try a pirate frigate teak/crew +hammocks.