Additional Buffs to Battle Sails

[Slim McSauce]

I really liked how the developers buffed turn rate for battle sails, I think that was a great move and should be expanded on, here's what I'd like to see to continue the trend of battle sails being the optimal sail setting for fights.

1. Increase reload speed across the board at full sails by 10-15 seconds, keep reload speed as it is now or lower for battle sails to simulate a more stable platform more suitable for the fastest achievable reloads.

2. Same with accuracy, decrease accuracy across the board for full sails, make accuracy as it is now (which is pretty darn accurate for cannons) achievable only under battle sails, again to simulate a stable platform being best suited for aiming.

3. Greatly nerf repairs at full speed, make slow and under the optimal speed to make repairs at.

 

Full sails should be optimal for running/chasing, not for the heat of battle. They're called battle sails for a reason aren't they? Make them truly so!
If you have any more additions to the list please contribute, and as always thank you for reading.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Slim McSauce]

1 minute ago, Sir John said:

Plus, harder to demast under battle sails?

makes sense, less sails, less stress on the rigging and masts. Good addition!

[Sir Malachy Karrde]

51 minutes ago, Sir John said:

Plus, harder to demast under battle sails?

 

Could work both of these together

The only reason I don't use battle sails much is rage boarding. You need to keep your speed up to keep from being boarded. Now that they are changing boarding to be able to happen if someone sneezes, I'm pretty sure combat will soon devolve to whoever has the best boarding mods. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, rediii said:

A problem I might see here is that small ships go faster into battle sails and get additional tur speed which makes it even easier to sterncamp but we could give it a try.

Reload % is the most important in my oppinion. In a brawl battlesails would be the way to go which is the target here

remember though if people then stern camp in battle sails they would get easily pulled into boarding

[Hethwill]

At the point we stand now, and this is especially noticeable when a big frigate fights sloops of war, going always full sails makes it so the frigate has to use more space which the sloops can use more effectively, being of way lesser length ( hull length relates to distance covered while making ship evolutions, not time of evolution ).

But when the frigate uses battle sails, space used is way less and the sloops natural fast speed will work against them.

Try it.

I fear being in the end sloop against a frigate captain that knows what to do. We stand little chance.

[Angus MacDuff]

We've had this discussion before.  There is no difference in "sailing crew" between battle sails and full sails, as the sails are not normally manned in action.  There is a small percentage of crew that is permanently assigned to the rigging at all times, of course, but they have no other duties.  Additionally, saying that you have a more stable gunnery platform at battle sails is incorrect.  Everything depends on sea state and your angle into the seas.  Sometimes your stability is better at a higher speed and conversely, you have a substantial roll or pitch (or both) a low speeds. 

Where your sailing crew has an impact on reloading is if you are changing speed by raising and lowering sails.  That's when you need the extra hands running up the mast to reef sails and hands on the gangways hauling on ropes.  Trimming the yards (manual sails) is also manpower intensive and could take hands from the guns.  Don't forget you have a disengaged side (hopefully), that would normally do that kind of work while the gun crews on the engaged side are reloading. 

[Sir Malachy Karrde]

14 hours ago, rediii said:

for battle sails to be usefull a big buf is needed like 30% increase of reload. and 20% turn increase

also less crew needed for sailing would be good.

 

A problem I might see here is that small ships go faster into battle sails and get additional tur speed which makes it even easier to sterncamp but we could give it a try.

Reload % is the most important in my oppinion. In a brawl battlesails would be the way to go which is the target here

Reload would make sense as at battle sails you need less crew aloft and can add more to gun crews

[Angus MacDuff]

27 minutes ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

Reload would make sense as at battle sails you need less crew aloft and can add more to gun crews

Wrong

[Angus MacDuff]

18 minutes ago, rediii said:

also its a more stable platform

Wrong

[EdWatchmaker]

Hello, 

Need a higher possibility of lower sails catching fire if not clued up for battle.

Fair sailing all.  

[maturin]

38 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Wrong

You're exaggerating. Yes, obviously with less canvas set you need fewer men concentrating on sailhandling. They don't need to be 'aloft', but that is the sole inaccuracy in his post.

If you need to immediately and simultaneously brace around all thirteen square yards on Constitution (nevermind the gaff mizzen, its topsail, all the staysails and headsails), you will need an awful lot of men queued up on the lines ahead of time. And that is the state of affairs represented by Full Sail in this game, and it's what players expect to do in action.

A suitably severe time penalty on sailhandling and bracing might be overkill from a gameplay perspective, however.

 

[Angus MacDuff]

4 minutes ago, maturin said:

You're exaggerating. Yes, obviously with less canvas set you need fewer men concentrating on sailhandling. They don't need to be 'aloft', but that is the sole inaccuracy in his post.

If you need to immediately and simultaneously brace around all thirteen square yards on Constitution (nevermind the gaff mizzen, its topsail, all the staysails and headsails), you will need an awful lot of men queued up on the lines ahead of time. And that is the state of affairs represented by Full Sail in this game, and it's what players expect to do in action.

A suitably severe time penalty on sailhandling and bracing might be overkill from a gameplay perspective, however.

 

The issue is changing state, not steady state as I mentioned in my earlier post.  The real life battles were fought with a lot less  maneuvering and speed changes from what we do in-game.  A Captain would reef his Courses due to the threat of fire, of course (right EdWatchmaker?).  He didn't want to take bodies from the gun crews and there was enough bodies for sail handling in general.  If he started changing speed and turning the way we do, a gun would never be fired. so yes, game play Vs reality as always.

[maturin]

2 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

The issue is changing state, not steady state as I mentioned in my earlier post.  The real life battles were fought with a lot less  maneuvering and speed changes from what we do in-game.  A Captain would reef his Courses due to the threat of fire, of course (right EdWatchmaker?).  He didn't want to take bodies from the gun crews and there was enough bodies for sail handling in general.  If he started changing speed and turning the way we do, a gun would never be fired. so yes, game play Vs reality as always.

Tacking a 74 gun ship under full sails requires around 40% of the crew. So you can do NA-like maneuvers in action (take a look at diagrams of some famous frigate duels for examples of this), but it will take manpower away from the guns.

It would also be very hazardous to set all your sails up to royals, and then not have the men on hand to brace the yards in a timely manner. So it is reasonable for the steady state to require the manpower.

[DeRuyter]

21 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

The issue is changing state, not steady state as I mentioned in my earlier post.  The real life battles were fought with a lot less  maneuvering and speed changes from what we do in-game.  A Captain would reef his Courses due to the threat of fire, of course (right EdWatchmaker?).  He didn't want to take bodies from the gun crews and there was enough bodies for sail handling in general.  If he started changing speed and turning the way we do, a gun would never be fired. so yes, game play Vs reality as always.

Even in a large fleet battle ships had to keep station in line and this required sail trimming. If you look at single ship actions as @maturin alluded to, some involved a lot of maneuvering and some were just run up and fire at close range. 

You certainly wanted to reduce sail to your maneuvering sail plan, aka battle sail, at the start of the engagement, weather conditions permitting.   Courses were furled not only because of fire risk but also because they add complication and crew to sail handling (they also affect visibility). Certain crewmen on the guns were designated as sail trimmers and would be called away for that task when required. Just keep in mind that even a small amount of maneuvering or speed changes on a square rigged ship requires sail handling which is why in battle you wanted the sail plan that required the least amount of crew. 

Here is my post from another thread on battle sails with an example of some of the sail trimming and maneuvering that Constitution did when fighting Guerriere:

 

 

[Sir Malachy Karrde]

23 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Wrong

You would need to send less crew aloft to maneuver if you only use battle sails. The less sheets in play the less crew necessary to handle them. And Redii is also correct that at battle sails, it's a more stable gunnery platform as you reduce heel. There is a point of diminishing returns on that though, if you go too slow you will be more at the mercy of chop. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Sir Malachy Karrde

[maturin]

2 hours ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

You would need to send less crew aloft to maneuver if you only use battle sails.

No one needs to be aloft to perform maneuvers.

With the possible exception of setting up the breast backstay on the new tack, or shifting the tack of upper staysails, but this can be done at leisure in good weather.

[Slim McSauce]

On 9/19/2018 at 4:42 PM, EdWatchmaker said:

Hello, 

Need a higher possibility of lower sails catching fire if not clued up for battle.

Fair sailing all.  

very good and underrated suggestion

[Lovec1990]

On 9/19/2018 at 2:06 AM, Slim McSauce said:

I really liked how the developers buffed turn rate for battle sails, I think that was a great move and should be expanded on, here's what I'd like to see to continue the trend of battle sails being the optimal sail setting for fights.

1. Increase reload speed across the board at full sails by 10-15 seconds, keep reload speed as it is now or lower for battle sails to simulate a more stable platform more suitable for the fastest achievable reloads.

2. Same with accuracy, decrease accuracy across the board for full sails, make accuracy as it is now (which is pretty darn accurate for cannons) achievable only under battle sails, again to simulate a stable platform being best suited for aiming.

3. Greatly nerf repairs at full speed, make slow and under the optimal speed to make repairs at.

 

Full sails should be optimal for running/chasing, not for the heat of battle. They're called battle sails for a reason aren't they? Make them truly so!
If you have any more additions to the list please contribute, and as always thank you for reading.

instead of buffing battle sails why do we not get a penalty of using full sails by having far grater chance of mast loss in case of sail or mast hit?

Edited September 21, 2018 by Lovec1990

[Slim McSauce]

On 9/21/2018 at 1:23 PM, Lovec1990 said:

instead of buffing battle sails why do we not get a penalty of using full sails by having far grater chance of mast loss in case of sail or mast hit?

whynotboth.jpg

[TheHaney]

Sooo... buff battle sails so everyone always uses them?

Isn't that... literally not doing anything but making every fight way slower?

[Capn Rocko]

Unless heel/capsizing gets buffed or variable wind speed is implemented, I don't see a need for lowering sails besides to turn faster. The repair idea seems to be logical but I think it would mean instant death to the player repairing (in most cases). For example: player lowers to battle sails for 3+ minutes to repair ----> gets boarded or swarmed/DPS. Pretty much the only time to repair would be when your enemy also repairs. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Capn Rocko

[Slim McSauce]

1 hour ago, Capn Rocko said:

Unless heel/capsizing gets buffed or variable wind speed is implemented, I don't see a need for lowering sails besides to turn faster. The repair idea seems to be logical but I think it would mean instant death to the player repairing (in most cases). For example: player lowers to battle sails for 3+ minutes to repair ----> gets boarded or swarmed/DPS. Pretty much the only time to repair would be when your enemy also repairs. 

Fights historically were not fought at full sails for many reasons. Hence "battle" sails.

Full sails are really only good for chasing/running, not for heat of combat.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Capn Rocko]

46 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Fights historically were not fought at full sails for many reasons. Hence "battle" sails.

Full sails are really only good for chasing/running, not for heat of combat.

The only legitamite reasons to use battle sails (in game) that I can think of  is windward heel and slowed turning at full sails. Turning improvements at battle sails is implemented already. Unless you are suggesting to increase heel at full sails, then I don't see a reason to change anything.

Increasing reload speed because of instability at full sails would only make sense if the waves were bigger. Our battles take place at calm seas (even when it's storming). 

What are the other "many" historical reasons that I am missing? 

[Slim McSauce]

1 minute ago, Capn Rocko said:

The only legitamite reasons to use battle sails (in game) that I can think of  is windward heel and slowed turning at full sails. Turning improvements at battle sails is implemented already. Unless you are suggesting to increase heel at full sails, then I don't see a reason to change anything.

Increasing reload speed because of instability at full sails would only make sense if the waves were bigger. Our battles take place at calm seas (even when it's storming). 

What are the other "many" historical reasons that I am missing? 

Read the thread, there are many ideas not just my own with good reasoning.

My favorites are nerfs/buffs to full sail reload speed/accuracy and 
Battle sails reload speed/accuracy respectively to simulate a steadier platform

My favorite that another person suggested is risk of fires burning the main sail if not up, which is a good balance because rn fire's don't do anything when they should.

[Sir Loorkon]

I think the most important thing is to implement changes with patience. The actual combat system is very good. I dislike the idea of implementing buffs (battle sails, ha a buff already) and nerfs (full sails) at the same time. That could be dangerous and the analyse of the effectes ist complicatet.

 We should try a nerf on full/half/slow sails first. I recommend to nerf the vertical pecision of gunfire on 100%/80%/60% sails by a nerf of 30%/20%/10%. Also the chance of getting on fire should increase when on full sails. With this changes we will get another positive effect because the mastsniping will be a little harder. Lets start with this and look to what it leads.