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Retag griefing


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1 hour ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

It wasn't even close to 100k north, more like 30. Took maybe 10 minutes to sail that way. After discovering the caliber of players at that time of day, you can bet your ass I'll be back and with plenty of other folks. It's gonna be like shooting fish in a barrel, especially with how strung out you all get when you chase someone lol. 

Oh, I'm not your buddy, you aren't the sort of person I like to be around. 

Well as all captains you are welcome to danish waters. Sometimes we are home and sometimes we are not, But thats not the issue her. You ask for a way to get out a chase for 4 hours. I gave you a solution. 

But as it is now I think it is balanced enough for both hunters and the hunted. Alone that they had to chase you for 4 hours be enough. Honnestly how many is going to chase the same guy for 4 hours. When pop change, new small adjudtment might be needed.

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6 minutes ago, Rabman said:

This whole thread is gold. I look forward to the "full battle group" of brits screenshots at Christiansted.

Well last time i saw that, was when they killed me in a Bellona. We spend the next 3 hours trying to get them to fight us. You know tagging and retagging.

In that way I like the Russian and Sweeds better. Not so much BS. But guess with Havoc by Britts, they soon will be on that list.

Edited by staun
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2 hours ago, Rabman said:

This whole thread is gold. I look forward to the "full battle group" of brits screenshots at Christiansted.

Won't be a Brit much longer. The old crowd is getting back together again and we will be cycling through all the nations on a monthly basis. Much easier to gather intel that way.

Edited by Sir Malachy Karrde
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10 hours ago, staun said:

Well as all captains you are welcome to danish waters. Sometimes we are home and sometimes we are not, But thats not the issue her. You ask for a way to get out a chase for 4 hours. I gave you a solution. 

But as it is now I think it is balanced enough for both hunters and the hunted. Alone that they had to chase you for 4 hours be enough. Honnestly how many is going to chase the same guy for 4 hours. When pop change, new small adjudtment might be needed.

 Your solution is not a solution at all and merely encourages bad behavior. I [politely disagree with] your so called solution. Come up with a better one. I want mechanics changes not more encouragement for people to be assholes

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Retags should be prevented by game mechanics, and they should be for a few reasons:

- Prevent griefing per the OP

- Create an urgency to gain a good initial tag, and to learn how to do it right.  You shouldn't get multiple chances to fix sloppy tags.

- Battles should be decisive, i.e. you shouldn't get infinite chances to correct your mistakes just because you have a fleet with you.  If you lost the battle or tagged horrible, then you need to just face you missed it this time.

- Generates a need to implement better strategy rather than exploiting poor mechanics.  Although right now we test.  But speaking of future fix.

 

I like the idea above of increasing invisible time a bit.  Not excessive though to completely disappear, but make a re-tag very unlikely or extremely difficult.

 

Also, some of the comments above in this thread highlight the reason why there are negative comments on Steam reviews about this community.  :(  And that's after I think some of these comments were even deleted.

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11 minutes ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

It's pretty clear that you want to continue being assholes. I can work with that. I'll be happy to keep ypu in battle for 5 to 10 hours next time I run into you, and see how much you like it then. 

First I only have one ass, so assholes is not posible for me. No i do belive as it is now is fair.

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27 minutes ago, Jean Ribault said:

I like the idea above of increasing invisible time a bit.  Not excessive though to completely disappear, but make a re-tag very unlikely or extremely difficult..

All you get with that is to help those guys running in there 15,5 km fir fir ships get there kill on a trader ore a low level player. Is that realy the PvP you want to reward?

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22 minutes ago, staun said:

All you get with that is to help those guys running in there 15,5 km fir fir ships get there kill on a trader ore a low level player. Is that realy the PvP you want to reward?

Then suggest something that will prevent chain tagging without rewarding the jackasses that engage in that sort of activity. We've already established that surrendering to them encourages more bad behavior on their part. Their target should not be penalized to break the cycle. 

I've never been accused of being a nice person, in fact I'm abrasive and short tempered and very intolerant. That said, I've never griefed anyone or acted dishonorably toward another player until they have shown themselves to be disreputable. 

That said, if you agree that there is a problem, how would you suggest it to be fixed? I grant that it Ian a rather big problem and difficult to find a fix for. This thread is to explore options, so that the developers can fix a bad mechanic and make the game more enjoyable for all. Whether you like me or I dislike you is immaterial. The motivations you guys had or I had last night are also immaterial. The fact is, it happened, it happens daily and it shouldnt. As players, and testers, it's our responsibility to help make this a better game for everyone, not just ourselves. 

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I'm not agreeing that this is a major problem (I've only been re tagged for 2+ hours twice that I can remember in my 4000 hours playing the game). I would rather focus on removing F11 coordinates because that has been the biggest issue for me. 

But if you insist on exploring ideas: perhaps cooldowns could be player specific. For example, after attacking a player and leaving that battle, you cannot attack that player again for 10 minutes. This could go for everyone that was in the previous battle. 

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43 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

I'm not agreeing that this is a major problem (I've only been re tagged for 2+ hours twice that I can remember in my 4000 hours playing the game). I would rather focus on removing F11 coordinates because that has been the biggest issue for me. 

But if you insist on exploring ideas: perhaps cooldowns could be player specific. For example, after attacking a player and leaving that battle, you cannot attack that player again for 10 minutes. This could go for everyone that was in the previous battle. 

The last time it happened to me, prior to last night, it was Aloha that did it, trying to punish me, Draconis and notz for leaving. That was about a month before I took an 8 month hiatus, so about 9 months ago. 

Id say that your suggestion has merit and could be a good place to start. Also removing f11 could solve the rest of the equation. 

Edited by Sir Malachy Karrde
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2 hours ago, staun said:

All you get with that is to help those guys running in there 15,5 km fir fir ships get there kill on a trader ore a low level player. Is that realy the PvP you want to reward?

 

I don't understand that comment at all.  I am a trader and I've been caught only a couple times.  It's not a problem for smart traders, and if I'm caught it won't matter anyway because I don't carry guns, so it's run if possible or surrender.  So then......so what if they can't re-tag?  How does it change that outcome?  Or so what if someone else doesn't catch them?  Who cares?  It's nothing of an example compared to this constant retag griefing.

But you are arguing for argument's sake it seems.  Or do you have a suggestion for this?  If not, criticizing others' suggestions is unhelpful.

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3 hours ago, Jean Ribault said:

 

I don't understand that comment at all.  I am a trader and I've been caught only a couple times.  It's not a problem for smart traders, and if I'm caught it won't matter anyway because I don't carry guns, so it's run if possible or surrender.  So then......so what if they can't re-tag?  How does it change that outcome?  Or so what if someone else doesn't catch them?  Who cares?  It's nothing of an example compared to this constant retag griefing.

But you are arguing for argument's sake it seems.  Or do you have a suggestion for this?  If not, criticizing others' suggestions is unhelpful.

No I am not arguing just for the argument. But it is typical for players to pull that card. I am serious in that the mechanic as it is, is ballanced enough. We don’t need any big change as it is.

How does it matters if the “Home team” has a change to stop those guys that sail there 15,5 kn ships. Try to read a lot of the post about ppl being farmed. They allready have a big advantage, by making them bigger, well then ppl just totally stop try to Hunt them Down. Yes few players wont care, but doo you think it is the majority.

You said it well.” I run traders if”. I gave a solution where He could do the same. The traders loose his ships and cargo. All He had to do was give up his PvP marks, I even let him keep his ship. But thats not good enough. Why is it ok for the trader to surrender. He didn’t ask for a fight. The hunter that went out for sure did. 

Sometimes it would be nice if ppl look at the total picture what the change would be overall. Give the hunter 100 % free get away, is in my opinion bad. But thats what He wants. They had to chase him for 4 houre to get him. He him self told they only got him because he helped them. Why make change to make it easier to get away. if we want to stop those guys going in15,5 should we then be forced to spend 6 hours to get him? 

I can tell you how such a fight go. There is spread a net out to get him in what ever way he goes. When he get visible the chase start. So one guy is close to him. The hunter makes a defensive tag if anybody get to close. Because he controlles when, the rest have to go for a join circle. So the fight is 1vs 1 in the start. The hunter goes on the best heading, start to chain the other guys with his rear guns, witch is more acuat the the chaser. So fast he will have better sail and get out of range of effectfully chains. At that point you basicly just can leave and start all over. You do that to run him out of rig repairs. So evently you get him in a fight where he can’t outrepair you

Edited by staun
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On 9/18/2018 at 3:07 AM, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

And retagged over and over again forcing me to play the game 3 hours longer than I wanted to.

It's not about how long you want to play for.

If you hunt another national in their waters it's how long they want to play for.

We have been chased for 2 hours+ by the French using the tactics you describe and eventually after constantly retagging us we used up all our chain and they sank us.

IRL this happened for days so it's all good.

No problem or mechanics change needed in my opinion.

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I would be grateul if someone could be kind enough to explain the problem with F11 and how it is abused?.  I'm not playing stupid.   

Seems like most people find it way to complicated to use co-ordinates.  Are griefers exceptionally smart?

Edited by Macjimm
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45 minutes ago, staun said:

No I am not arguing just for the argument. But it is typical for players to pull that card. I am serious in that the mechanic as it is, is ballanced enough. We don’t need any big change as it is.

How does it matters if the “Home team” has a change to stop those guys that sail there 15,5 kn ships. Try to read a lot of the post about ppl being farmed. They allready have a big advantage, by making them bigger, well then ppl just totally stop try to Hunt them Down. Yes few players wont care, but doo you think it is the majority.

You said it well.” I run traders if”. I gave a solution where He could do the same. The traders loose his ships and cargo. All He had to do was give up his PvP marks, I even let him keep his ship. But thats not good enough. Why is it ok for the trader to surrender. He didn’t ask for a fight. The hunter that went out for sure did. 

Sometimes it would be nice if ppl look at the total picture what the change would be overall. Give the hunter 100 % free get away, is in my opinion bad. But thats what He wants. They had to chase him for 4 houre to get him. He him self told they only got him because he helped them. Why make change to make it easier to get away. if we want to stop those guys going in15,5 should we then be forced to spend 6 hours to get him? 

I can tell you how such a fight go. There is spread a net out to get him in what ever way he goes. When he get visible the chase start. So one guy is close to him. The hunter makes a defensive tag if anybody get to close. Because he controlles when, the rest have to go for a join circle. So the fight is 1vs 1 in the start. The hunter goes on the best heading, start to chain the other guys with his rear guns, witch is more acuat the the chaser. So fast he will have better sail and get out of range of effectfully chains. At that point you basicly just can leave and start all over. You do that to run him out of rig repairs. So evently you get him in a fight where he can’t outrepair you

Staun,

You explained that very well.  

So many players complain about fast and elusive raiders running right up to Capitals and attacking traders, newbies, etc.   You explain how a coast guard can patrol and be an effective deterrent to raiders.

I see no griefing here.  

If we allow raiders a foolproof way to attack and escape, deep in enemy territory, there will be no countermeasure to raiding.

 

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Coast guard must manage "resources". Same as raiders have to.

Two blatant examples of bad management:

- raiders sailing out in a squadron of seven or eight ships - they will get one or two victims fast, but what will happen more often than not is enemy will stay in port or go to another area thus rendering the hunting grounds mostly empty.

- coast guard throws twice or thrice the numbers into the same battle thus rendering any opportunity to fight additional raiders ineffective.

How to:

- separate groups of 2 to 3 raiders with "harmless" vessels work best. It is more challenging to make the kills but surely doesn't "scare away all the prey".

- coast guard operate in groups of 2 or 3. Throw just enough ships into one battle. Keep others outside to assist in additional battles that might start, as hit and run raiders will try to start battles to absorb maximum defenders and then be free to kill more while the coast guard is all commited into one battle.

- if battle is joined, get aggressive. Do not exit separate. Exit together. Proceed to next battle.

 

Have fun out there. o7

 

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9 hours ago, staun said:

No I am not arguing just for the argument. But it is typical for players to pull that card. I am serious in that the mechanic as it is, is ballanced enough. We don’t need any big change as it is.

How does it matters if the “Home team” has a change to stop those guys that sail there 15,5 kn ships. Try to read a lot of the post about ppl being farmed. They allready have a big advantage, by making them bigger, well then ppl just totally stop try to Hunt them Down. Yes few players wont care, but doo you think it is the majority.

You said it well.” I run traders if”. I gave a solution where He could do the same. The traders loose his ships and cargo. All He had to do was give up his PvP marks, I even let him keep his ship. But thats not good enough. Why is it ok for the trader to surrender. He didn’t ask for a fight. The hunter that went out for sure did. 

Sometimes it would be nice if ppl look at the total picture what the change would be overall. Give the hunter 100 % free get away, is in my opinion bad. But thats what He wants. They had to chase him for 4 houre to get him. He him self told they only got him because he helped them. Why make change to make it easier to get away. if we want to stop those guys going in15,5 should we then be forced to spend 6 hours to get him? 

I can tell you how such a fight go. There is spread a net out to get him in what ever way he goes. When he get visible the chase start. So one guy is close to him. The hunter makes a defensive tag if anybody get to close. Because he controlles when, the rest have to go for a join circle. So the fight is 1vs 1 in the start. The hunter goes on the best heading, start to chain the other guys with his rear guns, witch is more acuat the the chaser. So fast he will have better sail and get out of range of effectfully chains. At that point you basicly just can leave and start all over. You do that to run him out of rig repairs. So evently you get him in a fight where he can’t outrepair you

 

I guess from my perspective I take the responsibility for the naval action.  If I am trading and I am not in a group, then if I'm attacked then it's my own incompetence or bad luck maybe.  At that point I personally don't expect the nation to save me, or revenge the other player.  Guess that's why I don't care if they get away.  My job was to avoid the hunter, if I made the mistake I should pay, not the hunter.  Maybe that's a completely different thing though than the re-tag issue.

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9 hours ago, Macjimm said:

I would be grateful if someone could be kind enough to explain the problem with F11 and how it is abused?. 

I'm not spamming this question, but thought it may have been missed.  Perhaps Admin explained this previously, when the grid was removed.  Can anyone please  provide a link to a detailed answer.  Seems that a sextant in NA is a grief tool, and that is a serious concern for those of us who would love to have a sextant.

Edited by Macjimm
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54 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

I'm not spamming this question, but thought it may have been missed.  Perhaps Admin explained this previously, when the grid was removed.  Can anyone please  provide a link to a detailed answer.  Seems that a sextant in NA is a grief tool, and that is a serious concern for those of us who would love to have a sextant.

F11 can be used to pinpointe the exact location. Makes it easier to place the revenge fleet. Some use it Alot and some don’t.

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15 hours ago, Crow said:

It's not about how long you want to play for.

If you hunt another national in their waters it's how long they want to play for.

We have been chased for 2 hours+ by the French using the tactics you describe and eventually after constantly retagging us we used up all our chain and they sank us.

IRL this happened for days so it's all good.

No problem or mechanics change needed in my opinion.

No player of any game has the right to use game mechanics to force someone to stay in game. This game has poorly concieved mechanics that allow other players to do just that. No successful populated mmo allows blatant griefing of other players as much as this one does. Maybe that's why there are only 400 to 500 max online at peak times, when games that are far more hardcore than this one have tens of thousands playing at all hours. 

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15 hours ago, Macjimm said:

Staun,

You explained that very well.  

So many players complain about fast and elusive raiders running right up to Capitals and attacking traders, newbies, etc.   You explain how a coast guard can patrol and be an effective deterrent to raiders.

I see no griefing here.  

If we allow raiders a foolproof way to attack and escape, deep in enemy territory, there will be no countermeasure to raiding.

 

The issue is they can retag an unlimited amount of time. Once out of the protection zones, there needs to be a way to break off chain tagging. In the protection zones, sure tag as much as you want. If the raider stays in the capital area, all bets are off, once outside, however, there needs to be a way to break the chain tagging cycle. 

I had another brainstorm: make it so that you can't target (no white circle) another player after dark so that grief parties have to work in their line of sight, not being able to see a targeted player miles and miles away. This would allow the person being griefed the opportunity to slip past griefers and break off the action. 

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7 hours ago, Jean Ribault said:

 

I guess from my perspective I take the responsibility for the naval action.  If I am trading and I am not in a group, then if I'm attacked then it's my own incompetence or bad luck maybe.  At that point I personally don't expect the nation to save me, or revenge the other player.  Guess that's why I don't care if they get away.  My job was to avoid the hunter, if I made the mistake I should pay, not the hunter.  Maybe that's a completely different thing though than the re-tag issue.

It is a little different. Traders aren't goijng to escape a raider. It's also not going to take 4, 5, 6, or even 10 hours to conclude that sort of action with no way to effectively break off action. 

Since the developers have elected to not weigh in to this discussion, from now on, I am going to return the favor to any Dane I see. I'll make sure I have plenty of time to keep them tagged and unable to break off the action for as long as possible. I bet I can get it to over 12 hours if I put a little effort into it. 

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