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Retag griefing


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48 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

There are occasions when you are kept in the game far longer than you want to be.  RL is very mad when she requires your attention and you cant give it.  Yes there is the Surrender option, but that is not great for game retention.  I asked a guy the other night if we could stop.  He couldn't catch me, but he could keep me in the battle.  He suggested I surrender.  Obviously had time to spare.  The re-tagging can be very bad.  If it looks like im going to be stuck in that kind of chase, yes, I will just fight or even surrender.  Very unsatisfying.  Some of you say don't hunt in enemy waters then!.. That's where the enemy is. 

Historically, small battles (1 ship against 1 or two) happened in solitude.  There was no chat box or comms to call for help.  The hunter and the victim(s) did their thing and then had the time to sort out damage, prize crews, etc.  It could be days or even weeks before another ship was sighted and it often took months before people at home knew a ship was lost.  So maybe a "get away free" card should be used.  2 minute invisibility?  Or else move you in OW to where you've ended up in the battle instance.  It's just silly, that you can be in a battle for 90 minutes and when you come out, there are half a dozen ships strategically placed to jump on you exactly where they know you will appear. 

Historically there were no magical reinforcementzones, no positional reinforcements, no traders tool to show you the prices in all the ports etc.. Let's not bring realism into this overly much..

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1 minute ago, Lars Kjaer said:

Historically there were no magical reinforcementzones, no positional reinforcements, no traders tool to show you the prices in all the ports etc.. Let's not bring realism into this overly much..

I wouldn't want real history either.  But while the OP lacks credibility, he's right that we don't want to be forced to choose giving up our ship to save a 2 or more hour chase.  That's bad for the game.

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2 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I wouldn't want real history either.  But while the OP lacks credibility, he's right that we don't want to be forced to choose giving up our ship to save a 2 or more hour chase.  That's bad for the game.

And i don’t think the guy just doing a mission want to be jumped and either give up his ship ore maybe be forced to fight for 1,5 hour, for a mission He expected to take  10 min. But for both cases you know there is a chance to get jumped as there is to be chased.

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Some inappropriate and non constructive posts have been ruled out. Any more "salty" comments will be met with ruling.

I am sure we can brainstorm this one and have a good idea if we all do not think only of our own individual particular game play.

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Chain retag comes out from different problems.

First and most plain silly (still without any solution in the short term) are (again and again) sail force mods... that allow a ship to be far faster in combat than in OW; or viceversa with loodsman book. So some multiple tags will always happen.

Second, we can all agree that multiple tags can be harassing but they are also the only way for a revenge fleet to take out a fast raider. Longer invisibility/tagCD timers will make hunters' life even easier. The proposed 2 minutes invisibility timer (with also the speed boost) will assure that no hunter will be ever catched as he leaves the battle.

Even if I can see this as "positive" from my personal point of view (being more often the hunter than in the revenge fleet) I sincerely think it'll give hunters an even greater edge. So IMO it's a bad idea at this point of the game.

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7 minutes ago, staun said:

And i don’t think the guy just doing a mission want to be jumped and either give up his ship ore maybe be forced to fight for 1,5 hour, for a mission He expected to take  10 min. But for both cases you know there is a chance to get jumped as there is to be chased.

Sure.  If somebody sees you going into or out of a battle, they can jump you.  Or if they see an open battle, pile in.  That is not what we are discussing here.  We are talking about a prepared group who wait outside a battle or follow you from one battle to the next.  They cant catch you, but continue to tag and chase, tag and chase.  If it looks like I'm going to be chasing a guy for a long time, I just stop and move on, but some players insist on keeping the chase going.  Even without the realism argument, more than two hours of being chased is over the top.

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27 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I wouldn't want real history either.  But while the OP lacks credibility, he's right that we don't want to be forced to choose giving up our ship to save a 2 or more hour chase.  That's bad for the game.

Then don't hunt in enemy waters... Rather simple solution and it doesn't require a lot of coding.. Just some realistic expectations from the players in question..

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9 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Sure.  If somebody sees you going into or out of a battle, they can jump you.  Or if they see an open battle, pile in.  That is not what we are discussing here.  We are talking about a prepared group who wait outside a battle or follow you from one battle to the next.  They cant catch you, but continue to tag and chase, tag and chase.  If it looks like I'm going to be chasing a guy for a long time, I just stop and move on, but some players insist on keeping the chase going.  Even without the realism argument, more than two hours of being chased is over the top.

This group did catch him. That's why he's crying. They cought him, they killed him and he got mad about it. End of story.

If he didn't want to potentially lose a few hours of his game then why did he hunt in danish-norwegian waters? And a chase of two hours? - It will only happen if the player being chased is too incompetent to pick a decent escape vector.

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19 minutes ago, Lars Kjaer said:

This group did catch him. That's why he's crying. They cought him, they killed him and he got mad about it. End of story.

If he didn't want to potentially lose a few hours of his game then why did he hunt in danish-norwegian waters? And a chase of two hours? - It will only happen if the player being chased is too incompetent to pick a decent escape vector.

Not even close. I'm mad that they wasted 4 hours of my time to do it. Had they quickly resolved the gank, there wouldn't have been an issue. It took them 4 attempts and 4 hours to finally set it up. They deliberately decided to keep griefing after finding out I needed to log off. That is the glaring problem with game mechanics as they stand. This game claims to be hardcore, well make it hardcore. Make all communication occur line of sight with signals. Have it coded to crash when voip is used in conjunction. That would be hardcore. Since it's not going to happen, there needs to be a solution that prevents chain tagging.

There is nothing hardcore about being chased for 4 hours until a group of incompetent gankers can finally get their shit together. 

Another possibility to prevent this is to spread combatting teams 20 km apart in random directions on the OS at the conclusion of a battle. This would preserve realism and prevent battle camping. Which in turn prevents chain tagging

@admin

Edited by Sir Malachy Karrde
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5 hours ago, Sovereign said:

 

@Sir Malachy Karrde After going through this whole thread I have to ask you this without any malicious intent whatsoever: Have you considered the possibility of this game just not being for you? The situation you and the opposite side described is pretty much NA in a nutshell and it won't be the last time it happened to you, if you keep playing. If you get this worked up about losing a worthless gank paper speedboat, imagine what losing a battle-worthy expensive warship would do to you, if you ever got to sailing one once you'd become more experienced. You'll have to fill a good portion of the tribunal section with your posts.

Again, this has nothing to do with the ship, I didnt even lose the ship I thought I had lost. I lost the crap one because I had apparently clicked the wrong trinc at aves before I left. The issue is and always was the sheer amount of time they wasted chain tagging me. They had two ships that weren't fast enough to catch me but fast enough to tag and keep me in battle and it took them over 3 hours to find one that could catch me. There is no excuse for chain tagging someone. There is no excuse for wasting a persons time like that. And surrendering as an option is laughable. A player of any game should not ever be forced to give up an item to a group of incompetent and unprepared gankers just so that he can avoid having his time deliberately wasted. There are a lot of games that are far more hardcore than this one and none of them allow time griefing. This game is hardly hardcore, a truly hardcore game would not have instanced battle and cheesy rules of engagements. A hardcore age of sail game would have an open world where you sailed at normal speeds, variable wind strength and nothing but line of sight communication. That would be hardcore. What we have is a cheesy arcade with poorly implemented rules of engagement.

im trying to be constructive and foster improved game play and improved player retention. You sir, just want to continue griefing as usual. 

Edited by Sir Malachy Karrde
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1 minute ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Mechanics must not lend to impunity outcomes.

Mechanics must also allow for players to take risks, but if it fails, not to be kept hostage indefinitely.

 

 

Exactly.  So what is the solution?  Many of us have been kept in the game for hours longer than we would wish because the alternative is just giving up.  30 second invisibility is not enough.  45?  1 minute?

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2 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Exactly.  So what is the solution?  Many of us have been kept in the game for hours longer than we would wish because the alternative is just giving up.  30 second invisibility is not enough.  45?  1 minute?

I like the idea of battles spitting contestants out in random areas 20 km from each other. That would not completely eliminate a retag, but minimize it. 

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3 minutes ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

Again, this has nothing to do with the ship, I didnt even lose the ship I thought I had lost. I lost the crap one because I had apparently clicked the wrong trinc at aves before I left. The issue is and always was the sheer amount of time they wasted chain tagging me. They had two ships that weren't fast enough to catch me but fast enough to tag and keep me in battle and it took them over 3 hours to find one that could catch me. There is no excuse for chain tagging someone. There is no excuse for wasting a persons time like that. And surrendering as an option is laughable. A player of any game should not ever be forced to give up an item to a group of incompetent and unprepared gankers just so that he can avoid having his time deliberately wasted. There are a lot of games that are far more hardcore than this one and none of them allow time griefing. This game is hardly hardcore, a truly hardcore game would not have instanced battle and cheesy rules of engagements. A hardcore age of sail game would have an open world where you sailed at normal speeds, variable wind strength and nothing but line of sight communication. That would be hardcore. What we have is a cheesy arcade with poorly implemented rules of engagement.

im trying to be constructive and foster improved game play and improved player retention. You sir, just want to continue griefing as usual. 

Man, I wish you would drop out of this discussion.  You keep making it personal and it doesn't help.  How about talking mechanics and not pointing fingers?  You've been caught in so many lies, I'm starting to suspect you're my ex-wife trolling the site.

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1 minute ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Not sure, I always advocated that Invisibility is a odd option, but even if "bad" is the best we got so far.

Also, exit to port is definitely not an option.

 

What about distance travelled in the instance is added to OW position.  Was not my original idea, but I like it.

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Battles in reinforcment zone are open all the time for defenders. So no revenge fleet possible (or needed) there, especially when you can join anywhere in the battle with that huge join area possibility.

However, anything that is outside of that zone should be you see what you get alias 2-3 min join timer.

Solution is pretty simple...

  • Increase invisibility time after leaving a battle to a reasonable amount. Currently it's not of any use if the *revenge squad* outside has any brains.
  • Increase the "you cannot attack" timer (Can still get attacked!) after leaving a battle to a reasonable amount, something along the lines of 10-15 minutes.
    • No ninja jumping out of battles to attack a lone trader prey

That was also suggested like a year ago, but didnt see any comment on it (dev side)

And I cannot really see a downside of it.

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16 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Man, I wish you would drop out of this discussion.  You keep making it personal and it doesn't help.  How about talking mechanics and not pointing fingers?  You've been caught in so many lies, I'm starting to suspect you're my ex-wife trolling the site.

It's my discussion, I'm going to participate. Have you ever considered that perhaps the other team is not being completely truthful in order to make things look better for them? Or maybe (and this is a stretch considering how things usually work in a nation) that there were several groups not working together and that the guys so busy defending their chain tagging didn't know about the first group that tagged me? I think that you sir should stop attacking me and stay on topic. I used that encounter to illustrate the deficits of a flawed and broken game mechanic, nothing more, nothing less. It's not the first time someone has been time griefed in this game, but I am working to ensure that it's one of the last. You don't like that, find another's topic to troll.

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12 minutes ago, Liq said:

Battles in reinforcment zone are open all the time for defenders. So no revenge fleet possible (or needed) there, especially when you can join anywhere in the battle with that huge join area possibility.

However, anything that is outside of that zone should be you see what you get alias 2-3 min join timer.

Solution is pretty simple...

  • Increase invisibility time after leaving a battle to a reasonable amount. Currently it's not of any use if the *revenge squad* outside has any brains.
  • Increase the "you cannot attack" timer (Can still get attacked!) after leaving a battle to a reasonable amount, something along the lines of 10-15 minutes.
    • No ninja jumping out of battles to attack a lone trader prey

That was also suggested like a year ago, but didnt see any comment on it (dev side)

And I cannot really see a downside of it.

I'd say a combination of both would solve the current problem to everyone's satisfaction. last night, the same guy tagged me two of 4 ganks. I would also add a slightly longer cannot be attacked timer too, say 3 to 5 minutes, unless you buffed invisibility to 70 to 90 seconds. Part of the issue is that invisibility lasts only 10 seconds or so after loading. I'm running a 7500 dollar computer and loading still takes over half the invisibility timer. You barely start moving before it's gone.

Edited by Sir Malachy Karrde
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21 minutes ago, Liq said:

Battles in reinforcment zone are open all the time for defenders. So no revenge fleet possible (or needed) there, especially when you can join anywhere in the battle with that huge join area possibility.

However, anything that is outside of that zone should be you see what you get alias 2-3 min join timer.

Solution is pretty simple...

  • Increase invisibility time after leaving a battle to a reasonable amount. Currently it's not of any use if the *revenge squad* outside has any brains.
  • Increase the "you cannot attack" timer (Can still get attacked!) after leaving a battle to a reasonable amount, something along the lines of 10-15 minutes.
    • No ninja jumping out of battles to attack a lone trader prey

That was also suggested like a year ago, but didnt see any comment on it (dev side)

And I cannot really see a downside of it.

I can.

Steal and run away with the prize with impunity.

But, if captain has no fleet perk, then sure, looks good. But in truth, give a option that doesn't grant me impunity after a heist.

Remember, the game is open, and mechanics must be "blind" to your, mine, and all others playstyles.

 

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2 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

I can.

Steal and run away with the prize with impunity.

But, if captain has no fleet perk, then sure, looks good. But in truth, give a option that doesn't grant me impunity after a heist.

Remember, the game is open, and mechanics must be "blind" to your, mine, and all others playstyles.

 

I'd rather see a few people get away with prizes than have my time wasted for 4 or more hours. Honestly, I've played this game for over 4000 hours on two accounts and maybe 1000 of those hours were hours wasted with chain tagging and time griefing. 

Edited by Sir Malachy Karrde
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34 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

What about distance travelled in the instance is added to OW position.  Was not my original idea, but I like it.

I like it but IIRC there's some technicalities linking instances and OW relative positions.

I know this sounds crazy but adding enter Port from an Instance should be implemented by ALL MEANS NECESSARY.

;)  doesn't resolve the whole pack but surely will solve a lot.

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2 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

I like it but IIRC there's some technicalities linking instances and OW relative positions.

I know this sounds crazy but adding enter Port from an Instance should be implemented by ALL MEANS NECESSARY.

;)  doesn't resolve the whole pack but surely will solve a lot.

If you are the aggressor or have a fleet ship, this option should not be available, otherwise I agree.

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6 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

I can.

Steal and run away with the prize with impunity.

But, if captain has no fleet perk, then sure, looks good. But in truth, give a option that doesn't grant me impunity after a heist.

 Remember, the game is open, and mechanics must be "blind" to your, mine, and all others playstyles.

 

For the reinforcment zone I understand your worryings, its supposed to be a more safer area now (thus battle is open 90 min with the ability to join anywhere)

But for anywhere else on the map, if after 3 minutes noone joined, well noone was in range to help out, right? So why would you be welcomed by a dozen ships after an 1 hour battle outside in the open world?

Should also be able to get away then.

Players (outside the reinforcmentzone) themselves should be worried about having *enough* protection aka escorts with them.

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