OW Navigation

[Grundgemunkey]

1 minute ago, kitsunelegend said:

You are the type of person that is hurting this game. You want everything super complicated with a very steep learning curve (more like a giant wall tbh), that serves no purpose than to scare away new potential players. And for what exactly? What possible reason could you have to NOT want something as basic as a god damned bloody location mark on a map?

 

ffs people, this topic should not even be a point of such heated discussion! Map markers are BASIC GAME FUNCTIONALITY. We have a massive bloody game world. Making it needlessly difficult to get around is completely counter productive to what this type of game needs. NEW PLAYERS.

on the other hand maybe its you that hurts the game ,,, taking what limited content is out of the game .... maybe some players get a sense of achievement out of navigating without having their hand held ... its not overly complicated ,, its not hard

where is the achievement in sailing from one port to another knowing your  position at all times ?

your the only one get over heated and stamping your feet

 

[Raf Van Boom]

People have been able to navigate for thousands of  years, and no, none of it required fish meat

[Captiva]

5 hours ago, admin said:

 but thinking logically the captain in 1790 could realistically identify his location with good enough precision.

We are very conflicted about this feature.

There should be absolutely no reason whatsoever for being conflicted when your very own words state, "thinking logically".

Come on, this is an age of sail game that should include a static Captain's Map similar to Shrouded Recluse's gorgeous map with cords, and a historically based method to, as you again say,  "realistically identify his location with good enough precision". 

You've answered your own question. 

 

 

[Grundgemunkey]

Just now, Le Raf Boom said:

People have been able to navigate for thousands of  years, and no, none of it required fish meat

then type in something else

[kitsunelegend]

Just now, Captiva said:

There should be absolutely no reason whatsoever for being conflicted when your very own words state, "thinking logically".

Come on, this is an age of sail game that should include a static Captain's Map similar to Shrouded Recluse's gorgeous map with cords, and a historically based method to, as you again say,  "realistically identify his location with good enough precision". 

You've answered your own question. 

 

 

Boom! Right here! There should be ZERO debate on this topic. Having a way to deduce your location IN GAME WITHOUT USING THE BLOODY TRADERS TOOL is a realistic and period correct game mechanic.

 

Eye balling your location using fish meat via the trader tool is a stupid, metagamey "wallhack" for lack of a better term. In fact, I vote for the complete removal of the trader tool outside of ports, and the removal of distances to ports completely, as its extremely unrealistic.

[Grundgemunkey]

1 minute ago, kitsunelegend said:

Boom! Right here! There should be ZERO debate on this topic. Having a way to deduce your location IN GAME WITHOUT USING THE BLOODY TRADERS TOOL is a realistic and period correct game mechanic.

 

Eye balling your location using fish meat via the trader tool is a stupid, metagamey "wallhack" for lack of a better term. In fact, I vote for the complete removal of the trader tool outside of ports, and the removal of distances to ports completely, as its extremely unrealistic.

i agree .... but lets not replace it with a ..."you are here"  icon

[Vernon Merrill]

6 minutes ago, kitsunelegend said:

Its very VERY metagamey. If I were a new player or a casual, I most likely wouldn't even know that was possible (or even know that tool exists for that matter). Which was the point I was trying to make.

 

Stop using this reason as an excuse. Its growing old.

Stop assuming you KNOW what every "new player or casual" thinks or wants.  It's growing old.

One of my favorite things about first finding this game was the huge scale and the immersion factor of feeling "lost", or at least only having a "estimated-guess" as to my location.  Much like a young and upcoming mariner would in real life.  

Instead, lets talk about one of the MAJOR parts of the game that I wish the devs would address regarding the OW.  In 90+% of the action reports I have ever read, one of the most important aspects of battle was the IDENTIFICATION of your enemy.  One of the best things the devs have done lately was get rid of the names of player in the OW.  In my opinion, they should continue along this vein with the upcoming flag features.  

in MY OPINION, all ships should have their default identity as "neutral" in the OW.   Visual draw distance should be renamed to "Hail Range" where I can choose to hail that vessel.  I now have the option to continue on or click on a box to "Hail unidentified Vessel".   That vessel gets a pop-up stating "Captain, we've been hailed by a passing vessel.  What shall we do?"   That captain now the option "Ignore Hail" or "Hoist the Ensign".  If the Ensign is raised, the normal information box currently in game pops up and the crew beats to quarters (prepared perk gets instituted automatically).  If the captain chooses to "Ignore Hail", then I should be forced to sail closer, something close to 5X tag range, into whats called "Identification Range".  At this point,  BOTH ships are able to chose a national ensign to raise which becomes active for 60 seconds.   If you select your truthful national ensign, then your crew "Beats to quarters"(prepared perk again).  If you choose a "Ruse De Guerre", you do not.   Finally, after 60 seconds, the true flags appear.  At any point, normal (assuming belligerent) tagging ROE apply.

Some assumptions:

You may end up in instances with friendly vessels. ( Green on Green rules apply)

"Prepared Perk" may have to be removed as an "option" or made more expensive point-wise

Dumping of cargo will have to re-worked to make it far more gradual...  i.e.- weight per time based.

 

Having just realized that this has very little to do with OW Navigation, I will post this as a thread in the correct section.

[Vernon Merrill]

26 minutes ago, Le Raf Boom said:

See this 18th century map? See longitude and latitude marked clearly? The game would have us follow fish scent and the intensity of it rather than having stuff that actually makes sense.  And, how about the Moon too?

LOL....   and look how "accurate" the scale and positions are....  

[Macjimm]

37 minutes ago, Captiva said:

this is an age of sail game that should include a static Captain's Map similar to Shrouded Recluse's gorgeous map with cords, and a historically based method to, as you again say,  "realistically identify his location with good enough precision"

This is bang on.  I would like this solution.

But apparently if we have a map grid we will use it to abuse each other.  I'm not being sarcastic, but understand the grid promotes ganking.  I could be confused but think that the grid was removed to reduce abuse.

[Sir Texas Sir]

10 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

wheres the automatic you are here icon ??

 

No one is asking for a RED DOT 'I'M HERE' but I'm sure some wouldn't mind that.

10 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

on the other hand maybe its you that hurts the game ,,, taking what limited content is out of the game .... maybe some players get a sense of achievement out of navigating without having their hand held ... its not overly complicated ,, its not hard

where is the achievement in sailing from one port to another knowing your  position at all times ?

your the only one get over heated and stamping your feet

 

You can have a GPS red dot and still do the same, just dont' type 'M' and look at the map.  I mean how hard is it if you don't want to use a feature to just do that, not use it?

That is why I suggested bring back the grids on the maps and give folks Long/Lat so they can look at the map and find out roughly where they where at.

10 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

LOL....   and look how "accurate" the scale and positions are....  

You do know they had smaller scale maps of the areas too, that was prob just a large scale general map. Some one that sailed a lot around a certain areas would have things such as coast line, reefs and other hazards or markings mapped out for there travels.  Remember the movie and I assume they did the same in the book of "Master and Commander" how they pulled the charts and said these ares are to shallow for the larger ship to follow?  They had a bunch of charts of that area cause they traveled in them a lot or other ships have and mapped it out all ready.

As for assuming what players want or dont, you might of loved getting lost when you started.  I hated it, it locked most of us that I played with to hugging the coast line all the time like we where greek/viking sailors or something.  Even they had better means to navigate in this game than we had back than.  The only good thing is if you got lost off the coast of US is you just head West until you hit land and than north until you found what port your closes too.  That all the while hoping to not get jumped by the tons of players all over the place as the game was over populated and you couldn't piss off the side of your ship without getting jumped by half a dozen nations while only in your basic cutter.   I died over 22 times before I even made it off the US coast  and explored the shallows....that was just trying to do misisons to level up into a snow and get off the coast.  It was not a fun experience at all for me so stop thinking it was for every one else.  We are looking at things to make the game good for all players.  You don't like a feature, than don't use it.

[Raf Van Boom]

Accurate to within a few nautical miles, celestial navigation was a thing until the invention of the GPS, eh?

[Vernon Merrill]

2 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

No one is asking for a RED DOT 'I'M HERE' but I'm sure some wouldn't mind that.

You can have a GPS red dot and still do the same, just dont' type 'M' and look at the map.  I mean how hard is it if you don't want to use a feature to just do that, not use it?

That is why I suggested bring back the grids on the maps and give folks Long/Lat so they can look at the map and find out roughly where they where at.

You do know they had smaller scale maps of the areas too, that was prob just a large scale general map. Some one that sailed a lot around a certain areas would have things such as coast line, reefs and other hazards or markings mapped out for there travels.  Remember the movie and I assume they did the same in the book of "Master and Commander" how they pulled the charts and said these ares are to shallow for the larger ship to follow?  They had a bunch of charts of that area cause they traveled in them a lot or other ships have and mapped it out all ready.

As for assuming what players want or dont, you might of loved getting lost when you started.  I hated it, it locked most of us that I played with to hugging the coast line all the time like we where greek/viking sailors or something.  Even they had better means to navigate in this game than we had back than.  The only good thing is if you got lost off the coast of US is you just head West until you hit land and than north until you found what port your closes too.  That all the while hoping to not get jumped by the tons of players all over the place as the game was over populated and you couldn't piss off the side of your ship without getting jumped by half a dozen nations while only in your basic cutter.   I died over 22 times before I even made it off the US coast  and explored the shallows....that was just trying to do misisons to level up into a snow and get off the coast.  It was not a fun experience at all for me so stop thinking it was for every one else.  We are looking at things to make the game good for all players.  You don't like a feature, than don't use it.

Well you hated it and I liked it...  So I guess neither one of us should get to determine  what "makes the game good for all players", huh?

[Niagara]

On 9/17/2018 at 10:32 AM, admin said:

We are very conflicted about this feature. 

After reading 4 pages I understand that its not a easy call. On one side is the learning curve vs fun and in the other side is realism vs fun. 

I for one started playing with no map aid and thus has learned sailing without tools but use them on longer voyages to check my headings. Perhaps we can find a middle way that allows players the experience to get lost and learn how to navigate and also get help from a feature that is aiding those that need help. A part of the tutorial perhaps?

[Slim McSauce]

a sextant minigame? I don't know why you'd prefer all players be location blind when the technology was there, you dont have to use it.

[Norfolk nChance]

In-game I like the idea of a Static map like Shrouded Recluses with Lat/Long data...

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/8451-shrouded-recluses-map-with-accurate-coords/

With the ability to draw on it and save it. Protractor and Ruler, you should know what PORT you are in, but be able to chart a course as such.

23 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

You do know they had smaller scale maps of the areas too, that was prob just a large scale general map. Some one that sailed a lot around a certain areas would have things such as coast line, reefs and other hazards or markings mapped out for there travels.  Remember the movie and I assume they did the same in the book of "Master and Commander" how they pulled the charts and said these ares are to shallow for the larger ship to follow?  They had a bunch of charts of that area cause they traveled in them a lot or other ships have and mapped it out all ready.

This idea is very interesting. Maybe when you start you’ll have a general large Caribbean map with the major islands and major ports listed. According to the spawn local then a second map that’s detailed 300k by 300k square (Map total size is 820k by 820k). All PORTs, Plus PB layouts, shallows etc.

Either through exploring or traveling or purchase then other Maps become available? The large BASE map wouldn’t show the details or minor PORTs. This would govern the Trade Tool distance as well, limiting the PCs view. New players are happy with the detail in the local area until their ready to explore further out...

You’ll end up with several maps overtime with your written scribbles and lines on them...

 

[Old Crusty]

Since it is so easy to navigate by using the trader tool (and it is easy) why not navigate by using something that is a navigation tool instead of a trader tool. If you think about it, it is really dumb to have to navigate by using a trader tool instead of navigation tools.

[EdWatchmaker]

Hello Admin and Captains,

Yes to Norfolk's idea. We need a navigation mini game and the moon. More detailed charts that we get by exploring or purchasing at a port. I would also like to be able to know depth under keel when in shallows so that with a vessel such as the gunboat I can get through places even a lynx can't go. 

I know that most will not like this but there should be no trader tool or chat when not in sight of land or another vessel that you have hailed. Petty Officer Wade is standing by to defend.....or most likely just drag me to safety, while scolding me and muttering under his breath.

Fair sailing all.

[Norfolk nChance]

this type of thing with a large overview chart acts as a FOG of War so no minor ports listed shallows etc... Restricts the "Navigate by Coal..." senario

The small more detailed charts lift it...

Edited September 19, 2018 by Norfolk nChance

[Angus MacDuff]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 10:51 AM, kitsunelegend said:

Here, I've made an example of the type of mark we could have in the game for navigation. Map is at max zoom in this picture.

 

Have the mark update its position every 30 seconds to 45 seconds or so. Just a simple circle with a rough location. Thats it. No coordinates, no lat/long, no metagamey trader tool trickery, no super complicated mess of different tools to mess with. Just a simple, clean, hand drawn looking circle of a rough location for players to use as a reference point when traveling.

 

Thats ALL that is needed.

There is a kinda cool potential in this idea if it's combined with noon sights.  When we are under water (IRL) we do dead reckoning navigation after we take a fix (GPS nowadays).  For that we use what is known as a "Pool of Errors".  What this means is that we start with a pretty good position on the chart, much like what we have here.  Over time, as we track our own course and speed, and plot it on the chart, the circle gets larger, because of the things we cannot observe/measure.  These things, such as current, tides and wind changes (obviously not part of our submarine issues) will increase the size of your pool of errors circle.  You know you're inside it somewhere, but not exactly where. A new fix the following day will bring you back to the smaller circle, but it gets pretty big over time.

[Preble]

On 9/17/2018 at 4:32 AM, admin said:

we will give an example from Rust 
initially they started without the map, then added them map that you had to uncover
then they added your location and initially veterans complained, but that complains stopped because everyone realized that identifying the location is not the core part of the game.

We initially did not want the map. but then community shown us the way when community map became very widely used and popular. 
We now do not want to show the location, but thinking logically the captain in 1790 could realistically identify his location with good enough precision.

We are very conflicted about this feature. 

 

@admin I understand previous concerns about coordinates being a means of dispatching reinforcements/revenge fleets, and I further understand the issue of wanting to maintain some imprecision.  To solve the navigational problem I think a mark on the chart made every game hour or so would represent precise fixes, and would together would create a voyage track history that would give players a realistically precise sense of their location and direction without unrealistically excessive information that could be used to harm gameplay through ganking/camping etc.  Dangerous Waters has a good example of what I'm talking about with the "Show History" feature in the right-click menu of the 2D map.

[Farrago]

I'm totally in favor of removing the exact F11 coordinates IF there was a little better navigation aids on map.

Hourly rough estimates?

Marked points, hilltops, mountains, other features on map?

Compass direction with telescope view?

Ability to draw lines of bearing on map?