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Sir John

What is more effective: Pen or shot size?

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The title says it all, I've been wondering what is a greater factor in dismasting and have not received many solid answers

 

Thank you 

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To demast, the cannon penetration at the range you're shooting has to be as much as, or greater than the mast thickness of the section of mast you are shooting.

 

(I'm making these numbers up because I'm not in game right now to cite actual cannon and mast values) 

EX: mast thickness 100, cannon penetration at 250m: 120 ----->  You will demast the enemy, given enough shots. 

EX: mast thickness 100, cannon penetration at 250m: 95 -----> You will not demast the enemy at this range (I've heard someone say it will *eventually* fall, because a ball does partial damage even when it bounces, but this is not confirmed; and I've had lots of people try to dismast my Kiritimati first rates, and the best they've ever done is take a topmast or topgallantmast, even after lots of broadsides)

 

Cannon caliber of course plays a factor in the penetration value of the cannon, and also in the damage output of the cannon. Just like your ship's hull, your masts have HP and thickness. If you have a cannon that can penetrate the mast, then the next thing to look at is HP. Say your mast has 400 HP, and the cannon you're firing does 40 damage, then it'll take around 10 hits to make the mast fall. Imagine that cannon does only 20 damage, it'll take around 20 hits to make the mast fall.

 

TommyShelby made a google docs spreadsheet that can help players understand the relationship between mast HP, thickness, and number of shots it takes to fell the mast. I'm not sure if the data is still accurate, but it may be useful, since it at least 'represents' the current system, even if the values may be a bit off. Here it is: 

 

So, from this we see that double charge is your friend for demasting, and getting 90% mast hits from a broadside is meaningless if you didn't pen the masts.


Furthermore,

Rule of thumb: whatever the largest caliber long cannon the ship carries *should* be able to pen that ship's own mast at 250m. Its not a hard-and-fast rule, but most ships do abide by it.

Best advice: if you want to demast anything short of a Kiritimati first rate, sail a ship with 42pd long cannons and stack a pen mod or two.

Second bit of advice: long 24s *can* demast anything that floats (that doesn't have mast mods) if you get in close enough. I've taken first rate masts with Endy before, but getting guns to elevate high enough to hit the mast at the ranges required to penetrate the mast can be tricky.

 

 

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Diameter does damage. Penetration ensure damage is done.

I'd say Penetration should be paramount in that case. Allows for range and ensure whatever little damage is done.

But a large shot can be more decisive at  critical moment.

Maybe captains that rely more on demasting can share ?

 

 

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7 hours ago, Sir John said:

The title says it all, I've been wondering what is a greater factor in dismasting and have not received many solid answers

 

Thank you 

I believe when you pen shot size. Mast HP is related to max gun caliber (bigger ships have more mast hp). so a 42pd ship will easily demast and need less shots to demast a 6pd ship compared to a other 6pd.  its 13 hits for 6pd vs 6pd ship (at least in the demasting exam)

So get a 42pd ship disable all other decks and demast a brig. if you need less than 13 *42pd shots its confirmed that size matters^^ ( do not do it with carros)

Edited by z4ys

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basically below 18pd you have to be real close to demast. with 18pd and higher you can demast more easily due to both pen and damage.

it is what makes the new classic conni so unique, 4 18pd bow chasers and 2 42pd rear chasers.

 

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Mast HP are coupled to basic hull HP if I am not mistaken. 10% of basic hull HP and you got the mast HP. Mast thickness correlates with armour thickness aswell. E.g. Conny and Bellona share the same base armour thickness of 65. Mast thickness is at 103. Mast HP differs according to HP of the hulls. 

Base pen value of e.g. 18pd long gun is 108 at 50m. Base damage is 55 (not sure, just take it as an example). The medium version of the 18pd has a pen value of (assumingly) 105 at 50m, but the damage is perhaps 57. 

Tbh I am often wondering, why people shoot at the lower section, when it is nearly 100% secure to go for the middle section. 

Learn pen values, learn mast thickness values and soon you are able to get a feeling for desmasting.

Long talks essence: if you don't pen nothing will fall. If you pen mediums do more damage than longs, carros more than meds. 

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14 hours ago, William Death said:

Just like your ship's hull, your masts have HP and thickness.

 

@admin, are there any plans to give captains an indicator on what their mast health looks like? Right now the enemy has more information about my masts than I do. 

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51 minutes ago, Galt said:

@admin, are there any plans to give captains an indicator on what their mast health looks like? Right now the enemy has more information about my masts than I do. 

You can visually see the mast damage in the form of cannonball hits to the mast. You should know if the ship shooting you is able to pen your masts or not (based on his cannon caliber), and gauge how many shots he's hit your mast with. If you're clever, you can hit sail repair *just* before your mast is about to fall and deny him the demasting (well, he can still do it, but will have to start all over again on weakening the mast). 

Its not ideal...but it works. I'm not sure how I'd feel about mast health indicators. I not sold on my enemy being able to see a mast health indicator, so I'm not sure we deserve to see our own either.... I think a basic mast HP indicator that goes from green, to yellow, to red would be acceptable, but only if the enemy gets to see it too (after all, he has a telescope and can see if your shrouds are cut, chainplates shot away, or mast is starting to sway).

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9 hours ago, William Death said:

You can visually see the mast damage in the form of cannonball hits to the mast. You should know if the ship shooting you is able to pen your masts or not (based on his cannon caliber), and gauge how many shots he's hit your mast with. If you're clever, you can hit sail repair *just* before your mast is about to fall and deny him the demasting (well, he can still do it, but will have to start all over again on weakening the mast). 

Its not ideal...but it works. I'm not sure how I'd feel about mast health indicators. I not sold on my enemy being able to see a mast health indicator, so I'm not sure we deserve to see our own either.... I think a basic mast HP indicator that goes from green, to yellow, to red would be acceptable, but only if the enemy gets to see it too (after all, he has a telescope and can see if your shrouds are cut, chainplates shot away, or mast is starting to sway).

That's more or less what I had in mind. Just three little dots/sticks that are divided into three sections (of course all this depends on the ship) but they would just have green, yellow, red, black color indicators to see how your health is

 

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