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Classic Connie--Your Killing Us Here!

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12 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

I suspect you know your skill level is well above 99+% of players.
Otherwise how explain almost no one using her?

I know that skill matters, more or less, still matters.

But also skilled players... usually, use "meta-ships" or anything with which they got a decent edge on.
As having a good edge on enemy is part of the game.

And Connie is well far away from that... for the mix of above noted issues: too low speed coupled with terrible turning. I know she can turn decently with manual... but "decent" starting from a turning rate equal to a 3rd rate one, is not "good", nor "exceptional".

Therefore also super skilled will end using a strong ship... and a super skilled on a Herc probably would be able to outurn and so sterncamp a super skilled on a... Connie.

 

Heh, I'll take that compliment, whether I deserve it or not :) 

 

I'm not sure why its not used as much. I suspect its at least partially as you say: because it doesn't quite...fit in...with the current metas. Its already been said (and I think you said it) that she doesn't benefit much from the Spanish Rig Refits, so we choose Bellona, Ingermanland, or Indefatigable instead. And it doesn't quite have a good enough base speed to fit in as an "all rounder" profile (good with straight speed mods and no sail force mods), so we choose Endymion or Trincomalee. Furthermore, the other metas (stern camping and boarding) are more challenging with Connie's lower turn rate, so once again we pick the lighter frigates. It *would* fit in in PBs, if the BR wasn't so high...I mean, its got the thickness for proper tanking abilities, and its got a profile that'll beat any lineship in the PB, but until we can no longer fit shallow ships in deepwater PBs, she won't have a place. And even then, other 5th rates are so much lower BR that they'll be chosen as circle occupiers instead of the (admittedly better fighting) higher BR Connie.

Really, the only way to do well with it in solo PvP (and not get sunk a lot), is to make a lighter-than-standard (lighter than teak/wo) build and stack some high end mods and books on it. Do that, and you'll do well (I have). Lightly built still out-tanks the average teak frigates and has higher firepower to boot. And the profile is good enough to outrun most ships in OW, especially if you have Loodsman (I've outrun Requins at 90* in OW). So, it does function well here, but requires the proper mods and construction types. Buff the speed by .2-.3-.5 and lets test it. Much more and I think we'll begin toeing the "OP" line. I don't know as I'd change turn rate much. The actual turn rate number is low, but the manual sail force is high, so she actually turns much better than the numbers would imply.

 

Fighting a Herc, I'd be less concerned about the turn rate and more concerned about the base speed being so high that he'll keep up with me, even with chained sails and then he'd be able to hug the side of the ship long enough to sink me. He'd eventually lose the broadside game (lower HP and thickness than me), but probably not before a super repair saves him while his 32 carronades sink me....

 

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1 hour ago, DeRuyter said:

No actually they were both 38 gun 5th rates. HMS Shannon  had a much better captain and crew and won the day (rookies vs. vets). The ships were fairly evenly matched though. 

HMS O'Shannon!

 

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1 hour ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

not even close to15.5 :) 

14.4 and endy was really top command, top crew, top team - imagine all the mods and books.

Not especially, her sister ships all made 14kn, she just had something weird going on that no one understood enough about physics to understand during her lifetime.

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34 minutes ago, NethrosDefectus said:

All ships built by the US suck balls!

Totally.  🤣

The American successes in the 1812 frigate clashes caused a furor in Britain, with much public soul-searching about fighting quality. On 18 February 1813, George Canning, a former treasurer of the navy and foreign secretary, told the House of Commons that "the sacred spell of the invincibility of the British Navy was broken." 6 John Croker, the influential secretary to the Admiralty, thought it necessary to publish the "Letter on the Subject of the Naval War with America" in defense of the government. In response to a sense of crisis, the Admiralty both built up its Halifax-based squadron and issued an order that it had not felt obliged to promulgate in the case of the conflict with the French. On 10 July 1813, Croker informed station commanders-in-chief that the Admiralty "did not conceive that any of His Majesty's frigates should attempt to engage, single handed, the large class of American ships; which though they may be called frigates, are of a size, complement and weight of metal much beyond that class, and more resembling line of battle ships. In the event of one of His Majesty's frigates under your orders falling in with one of these ships, her captain should endeavour, in the first instance, to secure the retreat of His Majesty's ship, but if he finds that he has advantage in sailing, he should endeavour to manoeuvre, and keep company with her, without coming to action, in the hope of falling in with some other of His Majesty's ships with whose assistance the enemy might be attacked with a reasonable hope of success."

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3 hours ago, Flinch said:

The Endymion captured the USS President (constitution) all by her lonesome. The connie was not THAT amazing and british training overcame any technical advantages.

No she did not. sorta. the President struck and set about repairs while the Endymion did the same. The President repaired and tried to escape again and the Endymion gave chase. The President only struck again when two other HMSs arrived to reinforce. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_President_(1800)#Capture

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So translated into Naval Action: don't solo an overgunned ship in light frigates. It would make sense except the Brits obviously underestimated the power of 'hugging', which we, the NA players have pioneered, a little too late to have effect on the war of 1812 unfortunately.

Edited by Le Raf Boom

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The Connie Classic looks nice. But I'm with the commenters above; the Connie is just not the same since its big speed nerf and really has no use now that the Aggy is faster. The connie & connie classic need a speed buff so that it at least comes into the equation when players are deciding which 4th rate to build/sail.

I did notice that the connie classic when tested last night in a fleet mission seemed to have very strong centre structure so thats as expected and as it should be considering she had diagonal riders.

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Those who say she can't turn I believe have not sailed her and are merely looking at numbers in port.  Her gaff topsail makes her tack very cleanly for a vessel as heavy as she is.

 

I sailed mine solo for however long I had it (a week or two), never lost, and at best was fought to a draw by an Endymion, Surprise, and two Hercs - the Endymion sunk.

 

I worry that proposed changes would make her overpowered.

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7 hours ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

Those who say she can't turn I believe have not sailed her and are merely looking at numbers in port.  Her gaff topsail makes her tack very cleanly for a vessel as heavy as she is.

 

I sailed mine solo for however long I had it (a week or two), never lost, and at best was fought to a draw by an Endymion, Surprise, and two Hercs - the Endymion sunk.

 

I worry that proposed changes would make her overpowered.

Manual sailing she can out turn most other frigates of her class.  I tend to run British refit on her just for this reason.

Connie should be the fast interceptor of 4th rates.  Aggy all around brawler.  Wappen best turn rate.  Ingermanland the glass cannon.  Than bring the old Connie in as a basics 4th rate we can buy with CM.

Edited by Sir Texas Sir
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just had a compare of a LO/WO Connie Classic to a LO/WO Aggy, no armour or structure mods on either. The Connie has more sides HP, more hull HP, more Thickness, so in theory it should be tankier than an Aggy.

Sides: 7210 v 6716

Thickness 78 v 74.4

Hull 3426 v 3190

Edited by PaladinFX
adding details

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8 minutes ago, PaladinFX said:

just had a compare of a LO/WO Connie Classic to a LO/WO Aggy, no armour or structure mods on either. The Connie has more sides HP, more hull HP, more Thickness, so in theory it should be tankier than an Aggy.

Umm matey you forgot to bring screenshots or write down the numbers for us?😒

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@admin Constitution old one and new classic version are too slow real life Constitution did 12kn loaded with cannons,crew and provisions and she was LO/WO build with copper plating yet in game teak/WO with cannons and small amount of repairs does 11,78kn. Connie needs speed buff

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17 minutes ago, Beeekonda said:

Umm matey you forgot to bring screenshots or write down the numbers for us?😒

Post edited :)

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4 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

@admin Constitution old one and new classic version are too slow real life Constitution did 12kn loaded with cannons,crew and provisions and she was LO/WO build with copper plating yet in game teak/WO with cannons and small amount of repairs does 11,78kn. Connie needs speed buff

You are right and I agree with you. Actually as a LO/WO ship with copper plating she was known to do over 13 knots in the real world. I have seen her speed quoted as high as 13.5 kn in some reference material but usually is quoted as "more than 13kn".

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1 hour ago, Capn Rocko said:

It's funny that ships need to be rebalanced every time a new ship/model gets introduced. 

Remember a lot of those ships where nerfed when they came out to balance with older ships.

1 hour ago, PaladinFX said:

just had a compare of a LO/WO Connie Classic to a LO/WO Aggy, no armour or structure mods on either. The Connie has more sides HP, more hull HP, more Thickness, so in theory it should be tankier than an Aggy.

Sides: 7210 v 6716

Thickness 78 v 74.4

Hull 3426 v 3190

Aggy can keep low thickness but she needs way more HP so she can be the Tammy all around brawler of the 4th rates.

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I love new Constitution Classic apperance as for battle performance:

-She is too slow needs a 0.30kn speed buff

-Turnrate is good but connie classic seams to better respond too steering imput than old connie

-armor is alittle better on new connie it bounces alittle more than on old model.

-New connie seams too like getting leaks got 6 underwater leaks fast but pumps were good enough too handle 6 leaks

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15 hours ago, William Death said:

Heh, I'll take that compliment, whether I deserve it or not :) 

It's intended and deserved I think.

15 hours ago, William Death said:

I'm not sure why its not used as much. I suspect its at least partially as you say: because it doesn't quite...fit in...with the current metas. Its already been said (and I think you said it) that she doesn't benefit much from the Spanish Rig Refits, so we choose Bellona, Ingermanland, or Indefatigable instead. And it doesn't quite have a good enough base speed to fit in as an "all rounder" profile (good with straight speed mods and no sail force mods), so we choose Endymion or Trincomalee. Furthermore, the other metas (stern camping and boarding) are more challenging with Connie's lower turn rate, so once again we pick the lighter frigates. It *would* fit in in PBs, if the BR wasn't so high...I mean, its got the thickness for proper tanking abilities, and its got a profile that'll beat any lineship in the PB, but until we can no longer fit shallow ships in deepwater PBs, she won't have a place. And even then, other 5th rates are so much lower BR that they'll be chosen as circle occupiers instead of the (admittedly better fighting) higher BR Connie.

As you said well... you're repeating the same point of "Constitution Lobby": Speed.
Aside correctly noting she has no room in a PB.

Missing speed... means she's a dangerous raider to sail. As you know well: you need to outrun bigger stuff, and outgun smaller. The first past is missing with the Connie ATM...

15 hours ago, William Death said:

Really, the only way to do well with it in solo PvP (and not get sunk a lot), is to make a lighter-than-standard (lighter than teak/wo) build and stack some high end mods and books on it. Do that, and you'll do well (I have). Lightly built still out-tanks the average teak frigates and has higher firepower to boot. And the profile is good enough to outrun most ships in OW, especially if you have Loodsman (I've outrun Requins at 90* in OW). So, it does function well here, but requires the proper mods and construction types.

... and you're saying that she can work (outrunning part)... with "some high end mods and books".
I can agree. A 5/5 very fast t/wo Connie with Naval Clock and all shiny stuff... can be an incredible ship, especially used by best veterans (the same, usually, being able to afford such a ship)... and anyway a t/t with quite an investment on her could work.

BUT she cant really be used with a more normal set up... being simply too slow.

Aside that ANY ship 5/5+v.fast is super... there're some ships that not so good at base line... but start to shine really when in God-Mode.

15 hours ago, William Death said:

Buff the speed by .2-.3-.5 and lets test it. Much more and I think we'll begin toeing the "OP" line. I don't know as I'd change turn rate much. The actual turn rate number is low, but the manual sail force is high, so she actually turns much better than the numbers would imply.

Perfectly my (and not only) thought. Nobody is proposing over buffing her speed to a base around 13.
Proposals I read are in the 12.0-12.2 range so indeed, a buff of exactly 0.3-0.5 kts to base speed as you stated.

16 hours ago, William Death said:

 

Fighting a Herc, I'd be less concerned about the turn rate and more concerned about the base speed being so high that he'll keep up with me, even with chained sails and then he'd be able to hug the side of the ship long enough to sink me. He'd eventually lose the broadside game (lower HP and thickness than me), but probably not before a super repair saves him while his 32 carronades sink me....

Not to speak about the weird meta of using light carros (12pd) as a machine gun... and being side to side, thickness simple doesnt matter.

OffTopic:
The use of smaller guns... another "original sin" in NA: the damage output of small and big guns is too close.
From a physics point of view, ball damage is proportional of kinetic energy... that's mass x speed^2.

Making it simple, and considering speed approximately equal among all balls (the bigger the ball, the bigger the gun, the bigger the powder charge) what should matter is mass.
And 42pd are almost 2 times 24pb... or more than 4 times 9pd. BUT 42pd damage is not 2 times (nothing close) of 24... nor 4 times (or even only 2 times) 9pd.

Correcting this, IMO, would solve almost forever the 5th hunting a 1st rate. Because a single 1st rate broadside will damage a frigate so much making the attack a plain suicide (as it should be).

 

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7 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

...

^Well said.

Yeah, regarding speed it takes either a fir/fir (or similar) build, or 4+ slots and very expensive mods to make her work for solo PvP ATM. Or you can go the teak/teak or teak/wo fighting build and just accept that you will not catch some stuff and will be caught by the first revenge fleet. But thats only fun once or twice, and replacing a decent fighting ship gets expensive real quick. And the cheaper builds with common (or only slightly expensive) modules are really poor in the "solo-ability" department.

So, I'd go along with the slight speed buff, as you say. But I maintain that you *can* make it fast now, it just costs a lot of in terms of good mods or RNG luck. 

 

Regarding cannons:

I've never cared for the running lighter cannons (or reload mods) and going the DPS route. It works vs casual players, sure. But fight an experienced player and it becomes much more difficult. IMO, DPS is worthless if you aren't firing *all* the time. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I hardly ever have to wait for a reload when I'm dueling a good player. More often than not, I'm waiting on my opportunity to get a good shot in. So against casuals, running lighter guns or using reload mods might seem like a good idea (you sink them faster so they can do less damage to you), but I don't like to handicap myself with smaller guns or by running reload mods where I should be running speed, repair, accuracy, or boarding mods. 

 

Regarding thickness:

I'll disagree here. Thickness is always desirable. Its saved me lots of times. Especially in 5th rates vs other 5th rates. I've won battles 3v5 or 3v6 where the enemy had bigger ships and I took little damage in my teak/wo Cartagena Endymion because I was bouncing all the time. Get a little bit of angle and watch the splashes of ricocheted cannonballs :)  You are right though, engaging broadside-to-broadside (ex: 'hugging' competition) negates any advantage you have there. And Constitution does have a hard time staying out of those situations if you don't have a failfit speed stacked one. 

 

Also, I agree that a bigger cannonball should (based on physics) do more damage than they do, but for game balance, we can't have it that way I don't think: its would be only a matter of time before power creep sets in and we're all sailing around in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rates, one shotting anything smaller. And there's no easy way to limit use of those without upsetting a large part of the game that only likes to sail those ships. 

So, maybe to make the 1st rate vs 5th rate engagement more painful for the 5th rate, we introduce a reload shock that actually does something (besides stop reload for 30s). Have the reload shock reduce hull thickness by 7%, reduce structure (center bar) of the ship by 7%, reduce crew morale [boarding] by 15, stop reload for a full minute, decrease mast thickness by 10%. (Numbers arbitrary but maybe a good place to start testing) Then you'll pay for sailing a fir/fir ship alongside a tougher enemy. One broadside from a first rate into a fir 5th rate will see you lose massive hull HP, and if he's shot your masts much they'll probably fall too. 

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On 9/12/2018 at 3:06 PM, Percival Merewether said:

My reasons, though they may well be wrong:

  1. Her speed (As I understand it) was not due to her design but rather the choice of construction material. She was built by superior wood types that would've made any ship faster. The Endymion on the other hand was built for speed but with inferior wood (to the Connie).
  2. My reason for her turn rate is to bring her in line with the other 4th rates - purely for balance with no historical basis. 
  3. HP is simply for her to stand out from the other frigates, though this can be discussed. 

 

Connie was in history also not a good turner.
She was a unbreakble fortres to the lower/equal  guns.she was against.
her speed was not formidble . she was a goodsolid heavy gun deck.
whit a superior armor.  her speed was on par. but definitly not the fastest.
she maintained her speed due too the fact her heavy wood. didnt slow her down as much as regular oak would have done.
but it didnt give her the speed u guys arepleeding for. for that her hull shape is not designed for speed. she is too bulky :)

connie was superfrigate. on par whit fighting a older/low lvl lineship or  74.

 

endiomion was a tallship above being a frigate.  which gave her speed also on top of woodchoice.
at the same price of armorment los. :)

 

keep in mind ships like constitution, victory,  zeven provincien
where also heavily romantic's  due too morale boost. not saying she did not fight the battle.

but minor propaganda was used example. captured 3 merchants. 2x rice 1 potato in newspaper. 1x rice. 1x potato, 1 time spices.
or ship xx vs ship xx fought a battle ship xx shot 1 mast.  other party  strikes color  battle xx totaly dismasted her.

i read the known battles from both side. in wich u can see consti was a solid stable gun deck whit excelent gun alignment. and a superior gundeck.
and a super armor :)

Edited by speijk
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^^ true but connies current base speed is 11,69kn witch is too slow im not saying she needs too beat trinco and endymoin in speed, but speed buff from 0.2 to 0.3kn would help connie alot i just want that unmoded teak/wo constitution classic with cannons and small repairs(20 hull,20 rig,150 rum) can go 12kn-12,10kn.

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u need to think different i notice many people choise one of 3 builds.
fir fir speed no armor.

teak teak speedy little armor.

teak white oak slow / tanky.

 

there more woods / combinations. all whit + and downsides. u want a faster connie u need to give up some tankyness.

 

i also make the choices. based on my wishes. i slowed down some of my ship to gain more armor.

 

Edited by speijk

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