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CoolBreeze66

Classic Connie--Your Killing Us Here!

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100% agreed.

The Constitution was not a particularly fast ship... It was built the way it was built to fight and destroy frigates and to be able to escape ships of the line. I think it fits that role in the game too (except when facing off again silly wapens and ingermanlands both old ship designs that perform stupidly well).

I wouldn't call her lucky, her crew and captain deserve some credit.

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The Connie needs a change for sure just how to do that is up for debate. 

 

My opinion is to make things simple on the devs is to make a DLC Connie that is LO/WO speed of 12.5or 13.0. Speed mods wouldn't increase speed in the same way other ship can not go over 15kn. I don't know if coding allows that or if it would be easier to code it so you can not install speed mods on the Connie.   This wouldn't break RVR as the Connie would still be destroyed by line ships. ALSO increasing the turn rate to be on par or just slightly under that of 5th rates.  Keeping the HP armor and Cannon load out the same as the current craftable Connie which can reach 12.5 knots if maxed out on Speed upgrades and is built very fast. SO the DLC wouldn't give you anything you couldn't get in game. Balance would be there and the amount of people would buy the ship is very high amongst the people who have not bought any DLC yet. @admin Your thoughts on getting this pushed through as a major income booster.

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3 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

agreed but just because she has sentimental value to some players doesnt mean devs should make the ship op ..

No one asking making her totally OP.

But at the moment turing like a 3rd rate and a speed under Agamennon one... gives her ZERO uses in PvP. Period.
Endymion sometime ago had a terrible profile (very tunnel like best point) and a terrible turning rate... still had some uses in PvP... granted the extremely high speed.
This is balancing.

Constitution cant simply be used being too slow even to keep at bay some SoLs and too clumpsy to camp bigger enemies and not to say to fight back nimble frigates. So she loses both against bigger and smaller enemies. So, not by chance, is not used in PvP.

Give her a nice speed... and she'll be the fastest 4th rate and the sturdiest... but the least armed and least nimble. Balanced.

She'll be able to easily outrun bigger foes... and to try to outsoak and outgun smaller.

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make conni a copy of endy 😉 problem solved^^

buff speed

buff turn

nerf thickness

nerf hp

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4 minutes ago, z4ys said:

make conni a copy of endy 😉 problem solved^^

buff speed

buff turn

nerf thickness

nerf hp

wrong.

buff only speed. She's already the sturdiest of the 4th rates... but also very slow, the crappiest turning and the least armed... so she's too inferior.
Buff speed in par with fast heavy frigates (Trinco Endy) and...

She would be able to hunt frigates (her role) BUT at risk of being outturned.
She would be able to outrun SoLs quite easily (again: her role).
She would not be able to realistically sterncamp a SoLs... having limited edge on turning (and this was not her role nor historical).

Against other 4th rates, some Spanish rigged could escape... others can go side to side with less HP but more guns. All will turn better.*

*Reworded: Others 4th rates will be able to run if light and spanish rigged... or if strong going side to side vs. Connie having less HP but more guns (so fair).
And moreover other 4th could outturn her.

Edited by Licinio Chiavari
roworded phrase

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6 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

No one asking making her totally OP.

But at the moment turing like a 3rd rate and a speed under Agamennon one... gives her ZERO uses in PvP. Period.
Endymion sometime ago had a terrible profile (very tunnel like best point) and a terrible turning rate... still had some uses in PvP... granted the extremely high speed.
This is balancing.

Constitution cant simply be used being too slow even to keep at bay some SoLs and too clumpsy to camp bigger enemies and not to say to fight back nimble frigates. So she loses both against bigger and smaller enemies. So, not by chance, is not used in PvP.

Give her a nice speed... and she'll be the fastest 4th rate and the sturdiest... but the least armed and least nimble. Balanced.

She'll be able to easily outrun bigger foes... and to try to outsoak and outgun smaller.

so too fast for bigger ships to catch .... too sturdy for smaller ships to damage ... sounds op to me

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As far as the Constitutions speed and maneuverability is concerned, she was originally made of Live Oak and White Oak. In the game she gets the same speed and turning penalty as every other ship when using those woods. If Constitutions speed and turn rate is historical, then if you raise her speed turn rate by the amount of the LO/WO penalty it should fix her. Maybe.

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6 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

There we go... the turn of the coin when it suits...

Care to elaborate for non-native speakers who and what you mean by that? 😃

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1 minute ago, Old Crusty said:

As far as the Constitutions speed and maneuverability is concerned, she was originally made of Live Oak and White Oak. In the game she gets the same speed and turning penalty as every other ship when using those woods. If Constitutions speed and turn rate is historical, then if you raise her speed turn rate by the amount of the LO/WO penalty it should fix her. Maybe.

That is not the case, Live Oak was what made her as fast as she was, the wood in itself is a reallife overpowered material.

In real life Live Oak increases speed due to stiffness, it's terribly misrepresented in-game (due to balance).

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7 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

There we go... the turn of the coin when it suits...

That comment is not particullary helpfull nor constructive...

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1 minute ago, Tom Farseer said:

Care to elaborate for non-native speakers who and what you mean by that? 😃

you are flipping a coin till you got what you want.

by that heth means lets build an op ship

Edited by z4ys
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Maybe it is all others that are over performing and the Constitution is still a legacy "envelope" from when the ships felt much better than they do now.

You know, when sailing profiles were almost on spot without too much speed here and there and turning on a dime like we have now ( Snow ! I am looking at you. )

Everything is so fast, so spinny, and you guys ask for more instead of questioning the opposite - why are our ships so fast and so turny turny...

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2 minutes ago, Old Crusty said:

As far as the Constitutions speed and maneuverability is concerned, she was originally made of Live Oak and White Oak. In the game she gets the same speed and turning penalty as every other ship when using those woods. If Constitutions speed and turn rate is historical, then if you raise her speed turn rate by the amount of the LO/WO penalty it should fix her. Maybe.

Engineering wise... the problem ingame is that the (real) extra weight of different woods impact TOO MUCH on sailing performances (turning and speed): on speed there's an 20% difference from heaviest to lightest builts... that's way too much.

In game a LO/WO Connie can barely go at 11kts. So totally dead against any kind of enemy, even 1v1.
 

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6 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

so too fast for bigger ships to catch .... too sturdy for smaller ships to damage ... sounds op to me

You may notice I said "TRY" outgun and outsoak other frigs... that will still have a good edge out manouvering a Connie.
In game manouvrability in a 1v1 counts a lot. And having a crap turning rate (I never said to buff it - not randomly) on par to Bellona makes connie beatable by other frigs simply stern camping... as they do dailiy vs. SoLs.

BUT if she'sslower than SoLs... she has no uses at all - like now.

 

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7 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Engineering wise... the problem ingame is that the (real) extra weight of different woods impact TOO MUCH on sailing performances (turning and speed): on speed there's an 20% difference from heaviest to lightest builts... that's way too much.

In game a LO/WO Connie can barely go at 11kts. So totally dead against any kind of enemy, even 1v1.
 

we ask for unrealtsic sailing and ship performance why should wood get realistic? if we get realistic wood distribution as well so will we are limited to build ships out of fir because oak and liveoak are very very very rar?

Edited by z4ys

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15 minutes ago, Le Raf Boom said:

People bring up the 'realism' thing to support their argument, it's funny how selective it is though.

 

You know I rarely use realism argument.

Still ship unbalanced stats come out exactly mixing up some realism (like turning - also - in relation with hull lenght) with ingame balance (different wood types speed bonus/malus or different ships gaming niche) and playability (utterly not real sailing profiles - of all ships).

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51 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

She would be able to hunt frigates (her role) BUT at risk of being outturned.
She would be able to outrun SoLs quite easily (again: her role).

I think it was not her role to hunt frigates but to stand against (faster) frigates and to outrun SoLs. I would agree to buff the upwind speed a bit. Over all she should never be as fast or turnable as a 5th rate frigate but should have better (esp. upwind) speed than SoL and other 4th rates.

I hope the new hullshape will make her bounce more shots. If not, maybe she could need a little more thickness and or hull (old ironside). 

Lets test first.

I think there will be a rework of ballance of all ships because there are many ships witch are not used often but I think admin knows this (there are some very good threads about diversity) and will deal with it before game will be released.

The new Consti looks great. Good work!

Edited by Sir Loorkon

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Turn time can be equal, say put side to side two ingame ships with 3.00, but hull length tells that the distance to perform a equal evolution will be very very different. Longer hull will have a wider radius, longer distance.

So for every wear, as an example, the Constitution model would separate more and more and gain distance, being of such length compared to a cruiser frigate or even a shorter hull 74 gun.

 

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1 hour ago, Le Raf Boom said:

You're missing one fact, the USS Constitution was one of the few that faced many, and the only one with any successes. It's very dear to our American friends, it doesn't matter that all others in her class ended up in a bad way, she has a very strong sentimental value.

 

Off the top of my head, the Constellation had a very long and successful Career and is anchored at Baltimore harbor. Your statement of all others in her class ended in a bad way is simply wrong.

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One of the biggest things that people forget about the age of sail is that the experience of the Officers and quality of the professionalism of the crew mattered a lot more than the ship that they were sailing. Americans in this time period were inexperienced and average at best when they first manned a ship. The British Navy on the other hand had the best ship Captains of any Navy in the world and the best trained crews. The point is that if you put the best Frigate in the world in the hands of a sub par Captain the ship will not perform well. The opposite is also true in giving an inferior ship to an Elite Captain and crew.

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Crusty having served in the US Navy for 20 years, that fact you just related is as true today as it was yesterday.  Look at the McCain and Fitzgerald collisions.  Those captains were woefully sad.  One not ever being on the bridge of the ship transiting the deadly and treacherous Straits of Malacca, been there, did that, got through without a scratch.  A well trained and drilled sailing crew under the capable handling of a competent sailing master could make a ship like he Connie come alive.  In fact, isn't something like an Elite British Rig Refit reflective of that idea?

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