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CoolBreeze66

Classic Connie--Your Killing Us Here!

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This morning the classic Constitution was released as a redeemable.  This created an interesting discussion on the global chat.  Here are my two cents.  Your killing us here.  Constitution remains today one of the finest, most amazing, deadliest ships produced during the age of sail.  I have stood on her decks in Boston on two occasions.  She is something to behold.  Yet this game has reduced her to a mere shadow of her ability.  In this game, her speed is terrible, her turning worse and you give us one with 2 more bow chasers. What are you guys doing, she is for all purposes in this game useless. She should be one of the most sought after 4th rates in the game but she has become a harbor queen, never sailing on many worthwhile missions.  Many this morning commented on how much they love her, but simply can't use her.  I am asking for a group of dedicated players who have stood by you and this game, even when the population has dwindled.  Do something worthwhile, make her a first choice fighter at the 4th rate.

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I will agree with some good points.

But... "her speed is terrible, her turning worse" ... maybe it is all others that are "over the envelope" and overperforming (!?)... and as such she seems underpar when she isn't.

 

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It's not the only ship in the 4th rate class underperforming.

The Agamemnon ought to outperform every single ship in the 4th rate class atm, but she doesn't. The Agamemnon deserve its rightful place as a Nelson's favorite 3rd rate ship of the line (speed and manouvreability).

Agamemnon needs more HP and Thickness

Constitution needs more turn and HP

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Constitution always had a big lobby, but honestly, what has she ever achieved besides sinking a few smaller ships?

Please don't let me call @Fluffy Fishy to destroy your dreams of Constitution being made of adamantium.

 

If you think she is useless and not worth sailing I will happily take yours for a few salt :)

Edited by Batman
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I has been an heavy user of Connie... even after a bunch of nerfs hitting her, for example still a lot by the time of Global-EU servers merge.
I used her in any possible fashion, from fir/fir to LO/WO. I knew she was well afar from being a "meta-ship", still I tried because I liked her.

I gave up.
It's simply impossible to use. Her speed (LOL) is under Agamennon one and her turning rate is on par with... Bellona (WTF).
So, even if being nicely thick and sturdy... these nice plus get totally overshadowed by above weaknesses, being unable to out run nor out turn ANY enemy, bigger or smaller.

I was looking forward with great interest to a revamped Connie... and what did we get?
A reworked model (nice, indeed) I should level again from zero books (with my use of connie I should have like 20 books opened on her) with 2 more bow chasers (nice)... BUT THE SAME CRAPPY STATS OF NORMAL CONNIE!

What should I test? that she doesnt turn? that she's slower than an Agamennon? That force mods impact badly her performances so I cant either overbuff her speed with them?

REALLY WHAT AM I ESPECTED TO TEST?... aside I have to press bar space 4 times in place of 2 using bow chasers. And I can assure it works as intended.

My Constitution Classic testing is already finished.

Sincerely. Nice work with the model. Avoid wasting database room to keep 2 models. Update Constitution model and (if really doing this only) add her the 2 extra chasers... and keep seeing her NOT USED.

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2 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

Constitution needs more turn and HP

No. Wrong. She needs SPEED.

She's already well sturdy... and I think she should not be fast and nimble (we got already a good share of OP 5th rates).
Hull shape wise (lenght in particular) and sheer dimentions... she should not be a tight turning ship.

SO she needs SPEED, only SPEED... to be able (on paper at least) to out run easily bigger stuff, and even if not outmanouvering, still strongly out soaking and out gunning other Frigates (being BTW her role).

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As I said in another post regarding Diana.

This ship will never be used with such a low base speed. Frigates need a minimun speed to be attractive as they usually have to run from a group of line ships.

Less than 12.5-12.6 is a no go for most players.

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16 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

What should I test? that she doesnt turn?

Its a new ship even imported from old conni it might have bugs. And be it visual bugs like the diana had (being on fire + fireshock and diana had no flames + smoke)

Edited by z4ys
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2 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

No. Wrong. She needs SPEED.

She's already well sturdy... and I think she should not be fast and nimble (we got already a good share of OP 5th rates).
Hull shape wise (lenght in particular) and sheer dimentions... she should not be a tight turning ship.

SO she needs SPEED, only SPEED... to be able (on paper at least) to out run easily bigger stuff, and even if not outmanouvering, still strongly out soaking and out gunning other Frigates (being BTW her role).

My reasons, though they may well be wrong:

  1. Her speed (As I understand it) was not due to her design but rather the choice of construction material. She was built by superior wood types that would've made any ship faster. The Endymion on the other hand was built for speed but with inferior wood (to the Connie).
  2. My reason for her turn rate is to bring her in line with the other 4th rates - purely for balance with no historical basis.
  3. HP is simply for her to stand out from the other frigates, though this can be discussed.

 

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1 minute ago, Percival Merewether said:
  1. My reason for her turn rate is to bring her in line with the other 4th rates - purely for balance with no historical basis.

 

Its based on hull length. The longer the hull the more worse the turnrate gets.

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The Constitution was/is a good ship, but not as fantastic as some believe.
It was a ship which fought a lot asymmetric fights and had luck when being "ganked".

The Aganemnon should really be reclassed as a third rate, where the Wasa already was moved to.
If that happens, the Consti will get back its title as most performant 4th rate.

Well, until it meets me in the Wapen that is. :D

Edited by sveno
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4 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Its based on hull length. The longer the hull the more worse the turnrate gets.

Very true, Admin has stated that. But in real life there is more to turn than merely hull length.

I also do not believe that it'd be a terrible idea to look at game-balance when implementing and tuning ships.

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5 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

Very true, Admin has stated that. But in real life there is more to turn than merely hull length.

I also do not believe that it'd be a terrible idea to look at game-balance when implementing and tuning ships.

We got realistic speed curves. Admin already set we will get back fantasy speed curves soon so all ships might get fantasy stats in the future.

Edited by z4ys

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39 minutes ago, Batman said:

Constitution always had a big lobby, but honestly, what has she ever achieved besides sinking a few smaller ships?

Please don't let me call @Fluffy Fishy to destroy your dreams of Constitution being made of adamantium.

 

If you think she is useless and not worth sailing I will happily take yours for a few salt :)

Do I have to? There is already so much wrong with this thread surely there must be some old threads you can quote from. ;)

The summary is most of what we "know" about connie is propaganda and that when president (the finest ship of the class) was captured by the British they were less than impressed by her.

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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2 minutes ago, z4ys said:

We got realistic speed curves. Admin already set we will get back fantasy speed curves soon so all ships might get fantasy stats in the future.

Considering that 90% of the game is fantasy, I think it’s detrimental to the game using realistic speeds and turn if nothing else has any real basis to it..

an Agamemnon should have as much HP as the Vic, and the speed of a third rate should be similar to a brig.

Either go all-in realism or all-in balanced gameplay. I will play both, but for the sake of the game I’d recommend balance

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2 minutes ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

Do I have to? There is already so much wrong with this thread surely there must be some old threads you can quote from. The summary is most of what we "know" about connie is propaganda and that when president (the finest ship of the class) was captured by the British they were less than impressed by her. ;)

And Shannon, a smaller ship, captured Chesapeake.

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You're missing one fact, the USS Constitution was one of the few that faced many, and the only one with any successes. It's very dear to our American friends, it doesn't matter that all others in her class ended up in a bad way, she has a very strong sentimental value.

 

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5 minutes ago, z4ys said:

We got realistic speed curves. Admin already set we will get back fantasy speed curves soon so all ships might get fantasy stats in the future.

I would be careful with calling the speed curves even remotely realistic for the following reasons:

  1. Speed is not only dictated by sail plan, but in large part by the hull shape below the waterline.
  2. All ships in Naval Action can run absurdly close to the wind. Even modern high-end racing yacht with drop keels can go no closer than about 30° to the wind. Square riggers drop to negligible speeds on anything closer than 80°.

Both those points are understandable though, because simulating laminar streams in fluids (1.) is ridiculously complicated and this is still a game and as such should be playable without having to wait 10 minutes for a large frigate to finish tacking.

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What I got from this:

If we're looking for historical accuracy and not game balance, Connie should have the hull thickness of a third rate and a heavier broadside than most other frigates.  Honestly, the ships she took in the war of 1812, were lesser ships than the Connie, being they were all 5th rates where the Connie would be the same as a British 4th rate, would be the same as a MMA fighter winning in a barroom fight... it's kinda expected.  

Edited by Salty Dog
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14 minutes ago, Le Raf Boom said:

You're missing one fact, the USS Constitution was one of the few that faced many, and the only one with any successes. It's very dear to our American friends, it doesn't matter that all others in her class ended up in a bad way, she has a very strong sentimental value.

 

agreed but just because she has sentimental value to some players doesnt mean devs should make the ship op ..

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