Remove clone ships from game

[Batman]

Currently we have several ships ingame that don't really serve a purpose because they have a nearly identical clone with same or better battle performance stats.

• 3rd rate & Bellona
  • For a long time 3rd rate could only carry 18pd & 24pd guns, while Bellona was able to carry 32pd & 18pd guns (was upgunned to 32 & 24). At some point, the 3rd rate was buffed to 32 & 18pd gun layout, but nobody would use it because everyone had grinded Bellona and thus nobody would do the same for 3rd rate, which is basically exact same ship as Bellona besides equipable guns. 3rd rate should be removed from game, because it is no longer a cheaper alternative to Bellona.
• Brig & NavyBrig
  • Two identical ship models (visually). NavyBrig receives an extra gun slot over the Brig (9 vs 8). Overall, NavyBrig has also better stats than Brig, with only speed being inferior to the normal Brig. Thus, Brig has no real use while NavyBrig is around.
• Frigate & Pirate Frigate
  • While the Pirate Frigate has slighty more crew (300 vs 280) and broadside weight (306pd vs 288pd), it is also slower and has slighty weaker base stats compared to normal Frigate. Overall, there are better alternatives to the Frigate/Pirate Frigate in the 5th rate class and the ship is hardly ever seen on the open world.
• Rattlesnake & Heavy Rattlesnake
  • When released, the Rattlesnake soon became the favourite hunting ship of many Captains. For some reason the devs decided to introduce a fantasy version of the ship called "Heavy Rattlesnake" with more guns (24 vs 18) and better base stats, with only speed being inferior to the normal Rattlesnake (1 knot difference). The Rattlesnake always was a nice little ship that performed well in OW and Port Battles, until her heavier sister appeared in the game ...

Ship data taken from https://na-map.netlify.com and a poll added - What's your opinion on having variants of the same ship ingame?

Edited August 31, 2018 by Batman

[Angus MacDuff]

Are there unnecessary ships?  Sure.  Should it be corrected?  Nah....Nothing wrong with a little diversity if it has no negative impact. 

[Hethwill]

Leave the Brig and Navy Brig alone please. Thank you.

[Guest]

There is nothing wrong with having more ships!

[Hethwill]

Different paints for the variants, for example, Trader Brig, Brig, Navy Brig. Or, Trader Cutter, Cutter.

[Angus MacDuff]

3 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

These are fake "copy-paste" ships that ruin gameplay. Do they add extra variety to the game? Is more always better? 

What if we copy pasted Bellona74 into 6 different versions, with different size of guns, few % more HP, few % less HP, few % more speed... That way we can create even 10 more "Bellonas" as new ships. Is that diversity, more content? This is still the same ship, maybe just new paint (minor visual difference), few % better or worse stats (this is what basically mods do atm). 

So in form of paints + mods we create new ships and diversity. 

@Hethwill the Harmless what is the reasoning behind Navy Brig? Same ship as Brig, just 2 more guns, more HP, bit slower... same with Heavy Rattle, fake ship created for RvR purpose to have a tanky beast in shallow PBs (probably to compete with mercury or be a special Event-only drop as it was introduced). 

Many argued that Pirate Frigate is a fake ship as well. It kinda look nice and I love the ship, but then I ask myself why would I ever use a normal frigate? I used both ships... They are same ships with minor differences. Instead of having twin ships (copy-paste) we should have more settings in outfit and paints. 

Nothing that you're saying is incorrect.  But, there is no reason to take away what is already there.  It doesn't have any negative impact on the existing game.  Nobody is saying we should have more clone ships, but why would we waste the effort to remove any of the 'useless" ships?

[Batman]

2 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

 but why would we waste the effort to remove any of the 'useless" ships?

New players often ask "What is difference between 3rd rate and Bellona" for example. You then need to explain the minor differences between the two ships, same as for the other ships and their clone variants. Removing these ships (on release for example) won't lead to less diversity, only to less confusion amongst new players.

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Batman said:

New players often ask "What is difference between 3rd rate and Bellona" for example. You then need to explain the minor differences between the two ships, same as for the other ships and their clone variants. Removing these ships (on release for example) won't lead to less diversity, only to less confusion amongst new players.

Fair enough.  I was a new player and this confused me at first also.  Then I figured it out and didn't care much after that. It probably wouldn't use up too much effort on the Dev's part to remove some of them.  But I keep coming back to "so what".

[Cecil Selous]

My only problem is the Rattlesnake heavy. An abomination of a ship that should go back to hell where it came from.

[admin]

45 minutes ago, Borch said:

Those ships were developed for real money. Its much easier to tweak their stats, appereance, cannons and make them usefull than to remove them completely. I'm saying no to "two steps back" developement.

Comparative cost of the vessel will be one of the decisions points as well. This will be addressed in the economy rebalance. Current costs are unbalanced and all over the place.

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

The idea that there are some ships that are so close to each other statistically that one is virtually redundant I think is accurate.

Both the Brigantine and the 3rd rate are generic terms for a specific type of ship, the 3rd rate was the workhorse of the Ships of the line, and, we currently have a restricted choice of this type of vessel. i feel that if the generic 3rd rates were removed the choices would be more restricted. Much emphasis is placed on 1st rates simply because they are so well armed and armoured, as indeed they should be, with a wider selection of 3rd rate classes the generic 3rd rate in game can be paid off, replaced by better quality ships that should provide both diversity and flexibility in fleet composition.

The same is I think true of the Brigantine rigged ships, they too were very numerous, both in merchant and military use. Like the 3rd rates a wider selection  of classes brings diversity (both in performance and visually) and flexibility to the game, and as the OP states the Brig and Navy Brig are far too close statistically to be of any real value in game.  

In respect of the Pirate Frigate, it is something a Pirate would not use, they often preferred overmanned/over gunned  Brigs, Schooners ect. Easy to crew, with far less maintenance, and with better sailing characteristics than Frigates,  they were difficult to catch, more suited to some of the more shallow areas where they could shake off bigger warships and generally increased their chances of survival in a world where every man and his dog wanted the them dead. 

The Rattlesnakes were truly magnificent little ships, almost never seen now, the advent of the 'Heavy' Rattlesnake which is marginally slower and less maneuverable in exchange for 6 guns I think detracts from the highly skilled cut and thrust of small ship, shallow water warfare.

The replacement of the generic 3rd rates, and the Navy Brig by named classes of ships, I think, would improve the game at both ends of the game, the removal of the Pirate Frigate (which is a rare sight anyway) and the 'Heavy' Rattlesnake may well prove beneficial to the game in the long term.

   

[Eyesore]

I sail normal frigats and brigs and sometimes i even win in them 🙂

I think they are awesome, all those topships are not interesting to sail, because they pose less of a challenge.

 

 

[Hethwill]

47 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

what is the reasoning behind Navy Brig?

Civilian and Navy commission brig rigs archetypes. Perfect example of how shipyards could build more or less fast/stout ships that are different without resorting to modules and mimimi to make them feel different and whatever...

 

 

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

2 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

We could always have a "refit" option. Merge ships into one and give option for x gold to refit them with more guns, crew, chasers, swivels etc. 

Instead of having dozens of different ships that are the same in theory, we can have more refitting and outfitting options.

Yes, Captains were given a good deal of latitude as to what they could do with their commands, they could alter the sail plan, exchange armament, even the ship's colour scheme was largely in their hands since they actually paid for the paint themselves.

The Admiralty only really began to make decisions regarding refits toward the end  of the Napoleonic wars with the adoption of Nelson's Chequer board  livery, he was I think the first Admiral to insist on uniformity of ships colour schemes within the RN, Prior to that Captains would buy in the cheapest colour paints they could find.

[Eyesore]

don't the upgrades and modules make us able to 'refit' our ships?

[Hethwill]

Just now, Eyesore said:

don't the upgrades and modules make us able to 'refit' our ships?

build them completely different as they were built, aye

[Hethwill]

No. One civilian build. More light, less resilient to combat.

The other is navy grade, more strong, heavier.

without mimimods they retain their exact brig rig specs, with appropriate turn developments, etc.

As designed and as possible in a game.

 

[Eyesore]

2 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

It does not allow putting more guns, swivels or chasers (differences between mentioned ships). 3rd Rate always had smaller guns than Bellona but it's same ship in theory.

No, they don't. Perhaps a new upgrade or module could be created for that (not really a fan of these things btw, but that is not on-topic) ... what kind of monstrocities/frankensteins would we be able to make? If it could be done, should something like that be easy or hard to do? (to prevent too much unbalance)

[Thomas Boyle]

Const & ConstClassic. What is their destinies?

[StaleMemes]

2 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

No one uses Brigs because we have Navy Brigs.

Can't comment on the others, but I used brigs all the time before the requin 6th rate apocolypse, no reason I would not do so again once they are fixed.

i love the Brig and see no reason to remove her.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Capt Aerobane

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

In truth, no two ships of a class or type were identical, there have always been small visual differences, small performance differences, and, given that Captains could alter the sail plans, change the armament, within the parameters of what the ship could carry, there were as many variations as there were ships.

The cut of the sails and rigging, the paint scheme, were often tell tales of what ship you were looking at, especially if a man had served aboard her. If you knew her Captain you'd know what guns he'd prefer to use, Most Captains would know who commanded an enemy fleet, some would even know the Captains within that fleet, the navy was, and, still is, a small world,  in times of peace much could be learned just by visiting a ship.

You could have two Leda class Frigates, built by the same builders, to the same plans and specifications, yet, be as different as chalk and cheese by the time a few Captains had commanded them, yet, still look like sisters, or, even identical to a layman. 

[Sella]

4 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Can you elaborate why you didn't use a stronger version of it - Navy Brig?

Personal preference maybe. You don't have to sail the strongest of every class to enjoy the game 

[Lovec1990]

16 minutes ago, Thomas Boyle said:

Const & ConstClassic. What is their destinies?

Two theories:

1.) Two names becouse one is current model, but new model is named Constitution Classic just for testing and after release of new model Constitution Classic will become just Constitution.

2.) We could have Two constitutions in game

[Old Crusty]

Historically there were a lot of variants to ships of the line, and Frigates. Right now we have very few variations. The Developers give us variation by allowing us to give completely different builds to the same ship. I think that everyone can agree that a Fir/Fir Bellona with all long guns is a completely different ship than a LO/WO Bellona with carronades.

For me, I would rather see a lot more ships that are similar but have less choice on build and load out. 

Currently you can unbox that Bellona with a LO/WO build, then build yourself a Fir/Mahogany Bellona That is fully unboxed even though they are really a completely different ship.

There are a lot of different ships from the approximately 50 years that the game covers. I would love to see 100+ ships offered to play in game with less choice on build and load out.

[StaleMemes]

11 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Can you elaborate why you didn't use a stronger version of it - Navy Brig?

Sailing alone, I like the speed. On the other hand when I'm trying to weave through a fleet avoiding enemy fire, a little structure or an extra cannon won't make a difference, but the speed and agility might. I also like the aesthetics of the regular brig, although I enjoy both ships. For me it's not about being meta it's about sailing a ship I like. That's why I use the yacht, pickle, brig, and surprise a lot when most of those ships (except surprise) have much stronger competitors that are the smarter choice.