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Patch 26. Spanish Frigate Diana, BR rebalance - Diana is a timed reward.

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13 hours ago, Wraith said:

Agreed on the approach creating far more problems that it solves, and the shortsightedness involved.

But I disagree about the stopping of a ship. What we are simulating here is not just the effect of hand ropes and grapples but of the catastrophic entanglement of yards and rigging that would occur at less than half a ship length in distance.  So there's that to consider in the "accuracy" department (of which I'd say we really shouldn't be all that concerned with since we're playing a sailing game sitting behind a monitor with Netflix on in the background, not standing at the capstan with teeth falling out from scurvy and decks awash with the blood of our comrades...).

The goal was to reduce the hugging by available means without programming time (just by tweaking speeds) but higher speed reduces tactical depth of combat.
We want to increase the tactical depth and coordination, not decrease it.

As a result we will reduce the max allowed speed back to 3.5 knots from 8, but will keep the lower speed difference. All other changes will remain.

Hugging and stern camping will have to be solved by musket fire. This will require programming time and cannot be expected until localization is finished (or during localization). One option is to just add another slot to cannons and allow the players to aim them in combat (but adding another cannon slot will require full ship wipe thus can be done only before release of the game).

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4 minutes ago, admin said:

The goal was to reduce the hugging by available means without programming time (just by tweaking speeds) but higher speed reduces tactical depth of combat.
We want to increase the tactical depth and coordination, not decrease it.

As a result we will reduce the max allowed speed back to 3.5 knots from 8, but will keep the lower speed difference. All other changes will remain.

Hugging and stern camping will have to be solved by musket fire. This will require programming time and cannot be expected until localization is finished (or during localization). One option is to just add another slot to cannons and allow the players to aim them in combat (but adding another cannon slot will require full ship wipe thus can be done only before release of the game).

I think you should give us at least a week testing it properly tbh... and if its still to much move down to 6kn, then 5kn and so on. No need to revert after 1 day.

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49 minutes ago, IceBurg said:

its now a book of five rings meta

1 person in my clan has 5 rings.

You guys talk and make suggestions based on extreme mods all the time.

Normal players do not have these mods.

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16 minutes ago, admin said:

The goal was to reduce the hugging by available means without programming time (just by tweaking speeds) but higher speed reduces tactical depth of combat.
We want to increase the tactical depth and coordination, not decrease it.

As a result we will reduce the max allowed speed back to 3.5 knots from 8, but will keep the lower speed difference. All other changes will remain.

Hugging and stern camping will have to be solved by musket fire. This will require programming time and cannot be expected until localization is finished (or during localization). One option is to just add another slot to cannons and allow the players to aim them in combat (but adding another cannon slot will require full ship wipe thus can be done only before release of the game).

 

On 9/1/2018 at 9:02 AM, Borch said:

I understand, however:

Now frigate captain foolish or not skilled enough that position himself the way he is open for a full lineship broadside should be punished properly for his mistake.

 

The third British ship into action was HMS Orion under Captain Sir James Saumarez, which rounded the engagement at the head of the battle line and passed between the French main line and the frigates that lay closer inshore.[87] As he did so, the frigate Sérieuse opened fire on Orion, wounding two men. The convention in naval warfare of the time was that ships of the line did not attack frigates when there were ships of equal size to engage, but in firing first French Captain Claude-Jean Martin had negated the rule. Saumarez waited until the frigate was at close range before replying.[88]Orion needed just one broadside to reduce the frigate to a wreck, and Martin's disabled ship drifted away over the shoal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Nile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Orion_(1787)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_frigate_Sérieuse_(1779)

Now I'm not saying that the frigate should be wrecked completely by one broadside, but at least in a deep shock, potentially allowing lineship another clear shot at it. This should be a mechanic giving a lineship a bit of a chance in encounters with smaller vessels and is a lot more reasonable than magic musket fire which doesnt require any kind of a skill. 

PS. All rates of lineships should have their thickness brought closer with each other in terms of balance.

How about this way?

17 hours ago, Borch said:

People who asked for it were the ones who are not so skilled in NA and who wasnt able to defend against hugging and stern camping.

This is what I suggested. An unskilled player could with some luck deliver a nice broadside and be able in theory to finish his target without the need to rely on some imaginative musket fire.

What the devs change will do is:

- skilled players will still stern camp

- skilled players will side hug less but still will be able to get the conditions to do it

- skilled players will board more easily

- unskilled players still wont be able to defend themselves from stern camp

- unskilled players wont be able to deny conditions for enemy to effectively side hug

- unskilled players wont be able to defend boarding (unskilled players will be repeatedly boarded with AI)

- whole NA will be forced into mod cookie cutter boarding build

- combat will become more boring and predictable

 

Expect more crying posts in the future about our new feature which is simply bad for the game. Expect more time lost on balancing it and possibly removing it.

While I understand that it is game in testing I have seen enough combat tweaks that were taking too much devs time. Game needs to focus on neglected features finnaly.

 

Also, trying to solve hugging and stern camping problems is a good try to help less skilled NA players who dont know how to counter that tactic. I would argue that theese players no matter what changes you bring still will be stern camped without problems and maybe a bit less hugged but still unable to counter it (no matter muskets or not). Its like you are trying to fix "ganking" issue here or OW time compression. Some people are beyond any help and some problems cant be fixed.

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17 minutes ago, Havelock said:

I think you should give us at least a week testing it properly tbh... and if its still to much move down to 6kn, then 5kn and so on. No need to revert after 1 day.

Boarding at higher speed on the parallel course should be possible - but it will only increase tactical depth if ships continue on their way if they started boarding at 8knots. 
If ships board each other on 8 knots - they must entangle and continue on their way at 8 knots in their direction.
In addition to that - captain should be able to use [ ] (point blank fire) during boarding. 
If ships continue on their way - this will drastically increase depth and coordination required for others to help during boarding. And will completely remove the option (hey i boarded - now stern rake it for me)


We cannot allocate the programming time to that because we want to finish kill, hunt, search and destroy mission improvements and deliver port UI to players. 
So it is better to revert until we can remove stoppage. 

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9 minutes ago, Flash Jack said:

1 person in my clan has 5 rings.

You guys talk and make suggestions based on extreme mods all the time.

Normal players do not have these mods.

Currently I think im the only active player to have it in mine and I’m one book shy of having a second copy for an alt I play mainly in shallows.  My main is the only one with cargo distribution and gunnery too out of my alts.  Most folks don’t have those either.  Just the rich and old school vets and die hards.  Hell I know folks that don’t even have all the barricades.  Lucky I had some extra to hand out. 

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18 minutes ago, Havelock said:

I think you should give us at least a week testing it properly tbh... and if its still to much move down to 6kn, then 5kn and so on. No need to revert after 1 day.

Yah I think most folks just want it lowered to below max speed of 1st rates so they aren’t instant boarded.  

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I would say increase grappling time, instant grapple and pull is so silly.

Edited by AeRoTR
Correction
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@admin boarding needs many changes, but I know it all might come after big patches. What if... with current mechanics:

1. Two or more players can board 1 ship at the same time. A more realistic approach, no boarding swapping between ships (friend stopped next to the enemy and pulling after disengage) 

2. Boarding grapples cooldown 2-3 minutes (immunity mechanic, not single player cooldown) - no boarding swapping again. After I disengage, NO ONE can pull me for 2-3 minutes. Also, I cannot board anyone as well during this time.

3. End last-second commands mechanics. This is just a weird system. Make musket/deck guns/grenades much stronger. All players choose the command on start. That will solve poker mind-games, ping related issues etc. This will make boarding much easier for new players! They all get confused by last second changes and havoc caused by it.

4. Nerf AI boarding mods (really)

I think these 3 suggestions will improve boarding mechanics BEFORE we can get a proper 3D realistic boarding model in the game. All should be easy to implement maybe besides multi-player boarding window... But who knows, it's worth asking. Players die to boarding so often because it's too complicated and too complex. All the preparation numbers and seconds passed after clicking etc. 

Edited by Banished Privateer
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1 hour ago, admin said:

The goal was to reduce the hugging by available means without programming time (just by tweaking speeds) but higher speed reduces tactical depth of combat.
We want to increase the tactical depth and coordination, not decrease it.

As a result we will reduce the max allowed speed back to 3.5 knots from 8, but will keep the lower speed difference. All other changes will remain.

Hugging and stern camping will have to be solved by musket fire. This will require programming time and cannot be expected until localization is finished (or during localization). One option is to just add another slot to cannons and allow the players to aim them in combat (but adding another cannon slot will require full ship wipe thus can be done only before release of the game).

Remove this stupid Determined defender perk and all is fine

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13 minutes ago, Christoph said:

Remove this stupid Determined defender perk and all is fine

 

No need to remove it now,  many have just dropped the perk.

 

 

Edited by Dibbler
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So now.....After a whole 24 hour testing.🙄

We are left with the one true raider in the game as one of the weakest ships in the game 'Le Nerfed'.

All the crew mods have been nerfed.

Cramped bonuses nerfed.

Extra crew trim nerfed.

All anti-boarding mods have been buffed. 

AI has been buffed to silly levels. (Rear admirals for Le Nerfed and Herc).

The reinforcement zones remain huge.

However @admin this will make no difference to the players crying the loudest.

They have constantly failed to adapt or even try to change their tactics.

They are poor players and you cant fix poor players with 24 hour hot-fixes.

The boarding game requires them, to put thought an effort into how to defend against it and use mods, which they simply wont do.

They will continue to cry. 😭😭😭

I just hope for the sake of the game you stop wiping their tears.

 

 

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2 hours ago, admin said:

The goal was to reduce the hugging by available means without programming time (just by tweaking speeds) but higher speed reduces tactical depth of combat.
We want to increase the tactical depth and coordination, not decrease it.

As a result we will reduce the max allowed speed back to 3.5 knots from 8, but will keep the lower speed difference. All other changes will remain.

Hugging and stern camping will have to be solved by musket fire. This will require programming time and cannot be expected until localization is finished (or during localization). One option is to just add another slot to cannons and allow the players to aim them in combat (but adding another cannon slot will require full ship wipe thus can be done only before release of the game).

You made a major leap in solving the hugging problem just by nerfing DD.  It will be easier for a larger ship to board a smaller ship now.  Good Captains already know how to counter the hugging tactic and bad Captains will always find a way to lose their ships, getting hugged is only one of them.  I have only played this game a short time and don't have any experience from when you received lots of collision damage, but I saw a suggestion about damage to smaller ships that are rubbing against a larger ship.  This would be a great hugging deterrent.

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7 minutes ago, Crow said:

So now.....After a whole 24 hour testing.🙄

We are left with the one true raider in the game as one of the weakest ships in the game 'Le Nerfed'.

All the crew mods have been nerfed.

Cramped bonuses nerfed.

Extra crew trim nerfed.

All anti-boarding mods have been buffed. 

AI has been buffed to silly levels. (Rear admirals for Le Nerfed and Herc).

The reinforcement zones remain huge.

However @admin this will make no difference to the players crying the loudest.

They have constantly failed to adapt or even try to change their tactics.

They are poor players and you cant fix poor players with 24 hour hot-fixes.

The boarding game requires them, to put thought an effort into how to defend against it and use mods, which they simply wont do.

They will continue to cry. 😭😭😭

I just hope for the sake of the game you stop wiping their tears.

 

 

 

 As usual in life the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

 

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2 hours ago, admin said:

Boarding at higher speed on the parallel course should be possible - but it will only increase tactical depth if ships continue on their way if they started boarding at 8knots. 
If ships board each other on 8 knots - they must entangle and continue on their way at 8 knots in their direction.
In addition to that - captain should be able to use [ ] (point blank fire) during boarding. 
If ships continue on their way - this will drastically increase depth and coordination required for others to help during boarding. And will completely remove the option (hey i boarded - now stern rake it for me)

Hi dev,

With that you'll still have the full boarding meta, and this will certainly not improved tactical depth. This too wont prevent "hey i boarded - now stern rake it for me", stern rake at 8 kn is still possible, just a bit more difficult to achieve, and even easier in some cases (if stern rakers have smaller and faster ships than the one boarded) . You'll end with "all go for boarding" fights (as yesterday ;) ), no more naval tactics (keeping the wind), no more team coordination.
Sure the stern camping thing is bad when boarded ship is stopped, but why not keeping the  slow 3.4kn during boarding, with in addition the eventual rotation the ships had just before boarding, with even a possible interruption of boarding if the grapple was not made correctly. (not perfectly parrallel course with ennemy ship at the moment of grapple), this would improve tactical depth and stern rake is more difficult on turning ships.

regards,

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There is nothing wrong with stern raking a boarded ship.  If its 1 v 3 and the 1 gets boarded, the other two ships should still continue combat.  Realistically, they would have joined in the boarding, but I guess we can't have that in game.  Don't get outnumbered or don't expect to survive if you are outnumbered.  C'est la guerre.

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2 hours ago, admin said:


Hugging and stern camping will have to be solved by musket fire. This will require programming time and cannot be expected until localization is finished (or during localization). One option is to just add another slot to cannons and allow the players to aim them in combat (but adding another cannon slot will require full ship wipe thus can be done only before release of the game).

I think musket fire is very reasonable - crew damage at a timed rate based on crew size and the further away both ships the less damage, lessening exponentially - and it can wait, after all we're still testing the game.

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just had the most stupid idea ever

what IF boarding wouldn't be a "to the end" affair ?

what IF boarding would last only 4 turns then "disengage" is automatic ( player can still use prep for disengage in 2 turns, 1 turn for axes )

what IF same ship couldn't be boarded by anyone during 60 seconds after the disengage

i mean... pressure is on the "attacker" so he better take the enemy deck with momentum, force and fast...

shrugs

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I avoided playng this game solo with larger ships for months. Now I see opportunity to deal with smaller ships. I can imagine that players don´t like to adapt, change play-style. Devs pls don´t revert so quick just because of whining on forums. Lets test the game and tune values for some time.

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1 minute ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

just had the most stupid idea ever

what IF boarding wouldn't be a "to the end" affair ?

what IF boarding would last only 4 turns then "disengage" is automatic ( player can still use prep for disengage 2 turns, 1 turn for axes )

what IF same ship couldn't be boarded by anyone during 60 seconds after the disengage

i mean... pressure is on the "attacker" so he better take the enemy deck with momentum, force and fast...

shrugs

You'd really be putting game play over RL with that one.  Boarding was often the end of the battle for both sides, not just the victor.  Wouldn't we all just brace for the 4 turns, then?

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Why not use collision damage ( which I believe you already have coded) to remove hugging?  The very common method of putting your 5/6th rate into the bow of the 4/3rd rate could be easily eliminated by making it cause massive damage.  The more nuanced “side hugging” should still be technicall possible but rubbing up against a much larger ship would open up gaps in the seams of the planking.  That should cause leaks.   

I think you have the means already to prevent small ships coming so near to large (unless they want to take the risk) by using this method.  You can remove the “ramming meta” which occurred last time by making the ship tonnage delta VERY curved.  I.E.- two 3rd rates rubbing wont cause any damage to either (like currently).  This will easily (and without further coding) fix the hugging problem.  

Stern camping is a bit harder.  But I’ve always thought small caliber guns did slightly too much damage on larger vessel sterns. 

I think it’s worth a quick test @admin before you devote a huge amount of time and effort to passive musketry.  

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Just now, Angus MacDuff said:

You'd really be putting game play over RL with that one.  Boarding was often the end of the battle for both sides, not just the victor.  Wouldn't we all just brace for the 4 turns, then?

Yes. Correct.

Very often the boarding was not decisive though, but let's not go that avenue ( some boarding actions lasted well over half a dozen hours and 12 attempts )

I am focused on the gamey part of boarding - preparation, engagement, resolution.

 

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57 minutes ago, Crow said:

So now.....After a whole 24 hour testing.🙄

We are left with the one true raider in the game as one of the weakest ships in the game 'Le Nerfed'.

All the crew mods have been nerfed.

Cramped bonuses nerfed.

Extra crew trim nerfed.

All anti-boarding mods have been buffed. 

AI has been buffed to silly levels. (Rear admirals for Le Nerfed and Herc).

The reinforcement zones remain huge.

However @admin this will make no difference to the players crying the loudest.

They have constantly failed to adapt or even try to change their tactics.

They are poor players and you cant fix poor players with 24 hour hot-fixes.

The boarding game requires them, to put thought an effort into how to defend against it and use mods, which they simply wont do.

They will continue to cry. 😭😭😭

I just hope for the sake of the game you stop wiping their tears.

 

 

Good .. Perhaps we will see the "Le Nerfed" less now and ppl will go raiding in other ships as well coz before more than half was Requins .. why? well no matter how retarded you were,  you could always kill someone and get away with it .. atleast in front of KPR coz nobody would be able to catch you if you're in a Req . Plus if you did manage to screw up and get killed oh well you haven't lost anything . 
@admin Le Requin and Herc redeemables should be an un-tradable Permit that you then have to go and craft the ship yourself .. and for ppl who want to redeem it in ports that have no infrastructure ok you can give the option to buy a resource package for 20PvP marks (like the other ships can be crafted for PvP marks)

We see a lot of ppl coming to die every single day basicly trolling and not caring if they lose the ship coz they can have another one for free. It's become coward's ships

Edited by John Sheppard
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Funny:

Le Requin > Le Broken > Le Nerfed

 

When we will see Le okish?

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1 hour ago, Crow said:

So now.....After a whole 24 hour testing.🙄

We are left with the one true raider in the game as one of the weakest ships in the game 'Le Nerfed'.

All the crew mods have been nerfed.

Cramped bonuses nerfed.

Extra crew trim nerfed.

All anti-boarding mods have been buffed. 

AI has been buffed to silly levels. (Rear admirals for Le Nerfed and Herc).

The reinforcement zones remain huge.

However @admin this will make no difference to the players crying the loudest.

They have constantly failed to adapt or even try to change their tactics.

They are poor players and you cant fix poor players with 24 hour hot-fixes.

The boarding game requires them, to put thought an effort into how to defend against it and use mods, which they simply wont do.

They will continue to cry. 😭😭😭

I just hope for the sake of the game you stop wiping their tears.

 

 

LRQ was not touched. It is still one of the best light ships in game. And the best raider together with Prince. We dont plan to change LRQ stats. 

Crew bonuses needed to go down there was not point to wait - 55% bonus for light ships was too big. Upgrade changes will only settle down once port ui patch hits (where player wont be able to stack similar group upgrades any longer). Only then we will see.
 

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