Port Battle 1 hour early entry window for attackers

[Tiedemann]

Hey!

Suggestion:
Have the Port battle instance open for entry an entire hour before the port battle starts. Then the attacking fleet have a much larger window of opportunity to enter the PB. This would make it more difficult for defenders screening fleet to predict when they will arrive at the enemy port, and therefor making a bit more difficult to screen them out.
We now have an 4 minute waiting period in the port battle instance, after it is scheduled to start. I'm suggesting that the port battle instance is open for entry 1 hour before the scheduled start, and that we have a 1 hour waiting period. 

The PB will not start 1 hour earlier or when the attackers join, the port battle instance is just opened 1 hour before the PB is scheduled to start. So if you enter 60 minutes before it is supposed to start, then you have to sit there and wait for 60 minutes.

This suggestion is inspired by the "hide in battle strategy". This was widely used by most RvR nations and it was proven extremely effective for increasing the chance for attackers to enter the port battle. I have tried to base this suggestion on mechanics that are already in game mostly because I'm not creative, but also because there is no need to "reinvent the wheel".  

Reasoning:
Now the attackers and defenders can only enter the port battle after it officially set to start. This time is available for all to see, so screening fleets for defending nation and defending nation allies knows where the attacking PB will be and they have a very accurate estimation of when they will be there. If they check the wind they can also figure out where it is most likely that the attacking fleet would want to enter and place screeners there. 
If the attacking PB fleet are late to join the port battle, their chance at winning will decrease. If they are more than 10 minutes late then they have a huge disadvantage because of the defenders by then have control of multiple circles and are gaining points.   

We now have smaller BR ports in game to give smaller nations and clans a chance to do RvR (I belive). But because the screening is so OP, smaller player groups/clans have no chance against a nation with more players or with more allies because they just get screened out of the port battle. So this would lower the "thresh hold"/need for player numbers for smaller groups of players/ clans, increasing the chance that they try out and join RvR. More RvR players = more RvR content = more quality content for all.  

If the attacking fleets are more successful in getting in to port battles then RvR outcome will become more skill based and not so depended on who has the biggest screening force at any given time. 

Issues:
If attackers and defenders can enter an entire hour before the PB starts, then the defenders have 1 extra hour to look at the attackers fleet setup and adapt/change their own fleet setup to counter it. That is not fair imo so the early entry option should only be for attacking fleet, or the specific ships the players have in the battle should be hidden in the TAB battle screen until the PB starts.

Also during this 1 hour wait the disconnection feature of inactive players/afk players should be disabled, or the game needs to active something to counter it because most will go afk for this long time period.

This suggestion would make it easier in generell for all attacking fleets to enter pbs, because the screeners are highly motivated by the precise when and where aspect of attacking RvR fleets. If they have to sit some where for an hour it is not so tempting anymore.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by Tiedemann
Attempt to clarify based on comments bellow

[vazco]

Both solutions require for defenders to be ready 1 hour longer, which makes organizing a defense more of a work than pleasure. Anything that requires from players more time spent mostly on waiting is bad for the game. It probably won't change the outcome, it will just increase the burnout. With second solution, it also makes multiflips stronger.

 

[Gregory Rainsborough]

#Spainneedsevenmoreadvantages

[Hethwill]

So, extend Conquest window by 1 hour but just for attacker because OW screening can happen which buys time for the fleet in port (defender ) to sally and gain advantage of strategic PB map positions ( circles ).

Am I interpreting correctly ? 

Thanks.

[Tiedemann]

21 minutes ago, vazco said:

... bad for the game.

Now it can be impossible for attackers to get into certain pbs when the defender have an organized screening fleet. This is an option to help increase the attackers chances at entering the port battle. How can you say thats bad for the game?

22 minutes ago, vazco said:

It also makes multiflips stronger.

Two main reasons to do multiflips as I see it. You either want to stretch the enemy's forces, so they they are not capable at screening out the attacking pb fleet. We do this because we want to increase our chances at thereing the pb.. So my suggestion would actually help countering this if it proves effective..
The other reason to do it is to zerg a smaller nation/alliance and hoping they do not have forces to defend all ports..  

[Tiedemann]

58 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

So, extend Conquest window by 1 hour but just for attacker because OW screening can happen which buys time for the fleet in port (defender ) to sally and gain advantage of strategic PB map positions ( circles ).

Am I interpreting correctly ? 

Thanks.

Eh, no! That's just not what I intended to suggest and would effect hostility grinding, not the port battle entrance and screening.. 

When we enter a pb at the moment the port battle is open (The time is is scheduled to start the day after it was grinded), we all have to wait 4 minutes until the battles actually starts. During this time we can not put up sails, reload cannons etc. Just like in OW battles this is 30 seconds. 
So in sted of this wait 4 minute wait after the battle have started, I'm trying to suggest that the attackers have a 1 hour window before the pb starts to enter and sit insite the battle and wait for it to start. 

[Hethwill]

Exactly, can enter 1 hour in advance of the PB start timer, that's what I meant.

How is it different from the old "hide in a battle" in front of a PB ?

[vazco]

56 minutes ago, Tiedemann said:

Now it can be impossible for attackers to get into certain pbs when the defender have an organized screening fleet. This is an option to help increase the attackers chances at entering the port battle. How can you say thats bad for the game?

It's simple - you're trying to fix a minor problem with a solution that introduces a major one. Being screened out is a nuissance. There are multiple ways of going around screening, you can cheat them. When I was commanding fleets, multiple times in a row we went through 15-20 screeners eg. around El Soco. Our efficiency was 75%. You can also simply get counter-screeners as allies. 

Having to be prepared 1h before the battle every time when you defend means you actually need to be there 2h before the PB as a screener when you count in the organization. Including a fight, you need to organize  3-4 hours of time for every defensive battle - and you don't even know if you'll have a fight. After 2-3 empty PB's like these people will stop participating in RvR.

 

 

If you want to nerf screeners, there are many better ways - eg. make ships in some distance to port impossible to tag (bad idea, but better). Organize an actual lobby. Require higher BR to tag battle group. That's better than wasting countless hours of defensive screeners just to have a similar outcome in the end - bored screeners will screen you out.

 

 

About multifilps - I was commenting Graf's idea, not yours. Having a larger window when you can choose a time to attack makes multiflip much easier to organize. This means more empty PB's and worse experience for everyone.

[Tiedemann]

38 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Exactly, can enter 1 hour in advance of the PB start timer, that's what I meant.

How is it different from the old "hide in a battle" in front of a PB ?

Sorry, misunderstood you. You make an excellent point there, and I just realized I stole the idea from the "hide in battle strategy". So it's basically integrating that into strategy into a special port battle feature. The idea was developed by RvR players in this game, it principle was tested and found quite effective, so I'm confident it would be used!

Screeners will hate this no doubt. It would force them into investing more time in scouting and waiting. Also the devs did implement countermeasures for "the hide in battle" strategy, so I'm not feeling their love on this..

[Hethwill]

Sure. I understand the reasoning now.

Next step, to what real purpose ? ( gamewise )

 

[z4ys]

1 minute ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Sure. I understand the reasoning now.

Next step, to what real purpose ? ( gamewise )

 

screening is bs

[Tiedemann]

The point is to make small nations/clans capable of doing RvR on their own and not depend so much huge screening fleets and alliances to be capable in RvR. It would also make screening more of an effort that is is now. This would benefit all the attacking port battle fleet, but at the same time demand more effort out of the screners. 

[Hethwill]

You will be given a free card, as an attacker, that works against the effort of  being "social enough" ( not fro a month but for years now ) and having a nice reputation AND having that very much needed screen fleet.

Or maybe i'm not getting it right.

Say a small nation has 1 port and you want it. They send out a SOS and the entire server comes to their aid. But the Attackers are already inside the port.

Is this how it will work if implemented ?

 

[Tiedemann]

53 minutes ago, vazco said:

you're trying to fix a minor problem with a solution that introduces a major one.

What's the "major one"? Nothing changes except the time the screeners need to invest in screening. Compared to what the attackers have invested, defenders do very little. All the screeners have to do is to sail out 1 hour before they normally would. So yes this might force the screeners to invest more time into screening, but that is the entire point! Now it is to easy.

1 hour ago, vazco said:

You can also simply get counter-screeners as allies. 

I'm trying to reduce the need for this..

1 hour ago, vazco said:

After 2-3 empty PB's like these people will stop participating in RvR.

You seem to be worried about empty pbs, I feel the same. I'm just focusing on buffing the side that creates the content for the defenders..  

1 hour ago, vazco said:

 1: If you want to nerf screeners, there are many better ways - eg. make ships in some distance to port impossible to tag (bad idea, but better).
2: Organize an actual lobby.
3: Require higher BR to tag battle group. 
4: That's better than wasting countless hours of defensive screeners just to have a similar outcome in the end - bored screeners will screen you out.

1. That might also work, a huge sone where nobody can attack anyone.. I would like to see you suggest that mate, but i fear it would kill of screening 
2. Would require a entire new feature worked out and kill of screening completely. My suggestion can be made with the features that are ingame, just need to change timers basically. 
3. We had this, but they nerfed it. But it was still a numbers game, and not helping the little nation/clan when they are 6 players in ships to fir in a 2500 BR pb, vs 25 1. rates screening fleet. I really liked it this equal BR and it made screening battles better imo.
4. Don't agree because we used this strategy in the past because it was very extremely effective!

[Tiedemann]

9 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Say a small nation has 1 port and you want it. They send out a SOS and the entire server comes to their aid. But the Attackers are already inside the port.

Is this how it will work if implemented ?

If defenders and their allies come 1 hour earlier to screen than they do now, nothing changes. The attacking fleet still have to sail to and join the circles. The battles does not start 1 hour earlier, or when the attackers join the battle. The port battle instance is just open for entry! So if the attackers enter 1 hour before it is scheduled to start, they have to sit there and do nothing for 1 hour.

A larger time window for entering the battle instance gives attacker possibility to sit and wait for darkness of night or a storm to cover their approach to the port. Also given the 1 hour time window the screeners might not have organized yet, and if attackers sail in then the few screeners that are there can't drag them into combat..

9 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

You will be given a free card, as an attacker, that works against the effort of  being "social enough" ( not fro a month but for years now ) and having a nice reputation AND having that very much needed screen fleet.

Nope, if the port is impotent for the defender and defenders alliance they will have screeners precent 1 hour before the port battle starts. And then attacker needs their own screening fleet like now. This would not help attacking the top most valuable ports in this game, because those are protected by hard core RvR players and they will adapt.   

Edited August 19, 2018 by Tiedemann

[Old Crusty]

As it stands now the attacker does not get to choose when he attacks. The time and day is set 24 hours in advance on a ridged schedule. Very unrealistic. I think that an hour window is reasonable.

[Hethwill]

Okay, so the PB entry timer just shifts to 1 hour earlier although the PB only starts 1 hour later.

What is the "profit" for the gameplay ?=

 

( I agree with Crusty, the rule is very gamey but, regarding the past tests this is the less intrusive solution yet - no alts taking spots, no blocking conquest with alt flags, etc )

[Slim McSauce]

trying to polish the turd that is RVR I see.

I think major changes are needed for RVR to be accessible and fun, it's pretty stale and hasn't improved any since introduction.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[vazco]

6 hours ago, Old Crusty said:

I think that an hour window is reasonable.

We had this with hide-in-battle exploit and it was commonly criticized. No need to repeat old mistakes.

This game should focus on providing people combat and give them participation in battles as quickly as possible. There's completely no point in making it an attrition game, giving advantage to people who can invest 1h into WAITING.

 

 

3 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

[RvR is] pretty stale and hasn't improved any since introduction 

You must have missed introduction of BR-limited PB's, hostility introduction and hostility reworks, land-in-battle, circle system, as well as patching countless exploits and issues. Your statement that RvR hasn't improved any since introduction is not necessarily true. Sure, it should be improved though.

Edited August 19, 2018 by vazco

[z4ys]

28 minutes ago, dark lord rediii said:

he wants to do something against the screening zergs that got introduced with hostility system. This didn't exist with flags 

It's the announced date and time for the happening

[Tiedemann]

6 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

What is the "profit" for the gameplay ?

 

18 hours ago, Tiedemann said:

We now have smaller BR ports in game to give smaller nations and clans a chance to do RvR(I think), but because the screening is so OP they have no chance against a nation with more players or with more allies, because they just get screened out of the port battle. 

 

9 hours ago, Tiedemann said:

The point is to make small nations/clans capable of doing RvR on their own and not depend so much huge screening fleets and alliances to be capable in RvR. It would also make screening more of an effort that is is now. This would benefit all the attacking port battle fleet, but at the same time demand more effort out of the screners. 

From my point of view aggressive RvR is the main creator of quality content in this game. I'm not seeing that much new players in aggressive RvR (a lot of new nicks, but behind them is still the old RvR players that where here 1 year ago). I would like to lower the attackers need for screening, so a smaller group of players have a larger possibility to enter a port battle. If it becomes easier to get in to pbs I'm certain more players will try RvR. This would create more quality content for all.

[Slim McSauce]

2 hours ago, vazco said:

You must have missed introduction of BR-limited PB's, hostility introduction and hostility reworks, land-in-battle, circle system, as well as patching countless exploits and issues. Your statement that RvR hasn't improved any since introduction is not necessarily true. Sure, it should be improved though.

None of those really improved anything imo. The BR limits just created smaller PBs with the same composition, hostility missions...eh I kinda prefered raising hostility hitting OW fleets and PVP. People still complain about PVE so it wasn't a big step forward. Circles are a blessing and a curse. Land in battles, I'll give you that one, for sure.

Fundamentally RVR hasn't improved beyond a generic battle with circles. It's still a chore more than anything, not very dynamic or large scale. Not inclusive and only marginally retaining players on it's own.

[Hethwill]

Ok thank you.

A potential always equal fight inside the PB at the expense of operational/tactical deployment in the OW ( tied with the social aspect of the game which enables the clans helping each other).

Thanks for your answers.

 

[z4ys]

I personally enjoy the 8-10 players portbattles but due to screening and without national/diplomatic effort they are nothing for fast meaningful action. Attacking is more a waste of time so i rather defend as to attack.

[Tiedemann]

32 minutes ago, z4ys said:

I personally enjoy the 8-10 players portbattles but due to screening and without national/diplomatic effort they are nothing for fast meaningful action. Attacking is more a waste of time so i rather defend as to attack.

I totally agree, but this is very bad! If we all start to think this RvR dies..