Hugging, boarding, and determined defender.

[Old Crusty]

   I think that a smaller ship hugging a larger ship to death is about the most unrealistic part of this game and hurts the game badly. Here is what I think could be the solution. All thoughts about this, positive and negative would be appreciated.

   When one ship comes in contact with another a timer is started. As the timer continues, the requirement of ships speed for grappling start to slowly go up. It of course starts at 3 knots but after 90 seconds it might be at 4 knots and at 2 minutes at 5 knots. At the same time, determined defender becomes less effective because the other ship is doing whatever they can to overcome it. So after 90 seconds being in contact determined defender is only at a 20% difference in crew and at some point it would be completely nullified. 

   I know that this can be exploited but the system now without collision damage is being exploited by smaller ships so badly that realism in battle has been thrown completely out the window.

   Thoughts please.

[Rabman]

This sort of selective realism would be a poor counter balance. In poor wind Line Ships shouldn't be able to maneuver like they're a Brig, but they currently do. The reality is, if you are in a larger ship you are most certainly threatened by a pack of smaller ships. One single smaller ship is not a threat to you. Simply stop and get him off your side or go in reverse mode (realism?)

If you are a large ship, you require an escort; another large ship or a couple of smaller ships to cover you. You have to leverage your crew advantage or broadside advantage and not negate your firepower by playing into their only tactic short of attempting to stern camp.

Personally I love determined defender and hate the whole rage boarding mechanic. It takes a good fight with skill and excitement and turns it into a last second click fest of who has more men.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Rabman

[Gregory Rainsborough]

People really seem to have difficulty with reversing. I had a battle with a Spanish Santi not so long ago and he fought me off for an hour and twenty in my Herc I think it was. It's very easy to deal with them provided you lose the *line up alongside to shoot* mentality.

There is a reason aircraft carriers have escort ships.

[Licinio Chiavari]

9 minutes ago, Rabman said:

 

Personally I love determined defender and hate the whole rage boarding mechanic. It takes a good fight with skill and excitement and turns it into a last second click fest of who has more men.

Boarding is far more historical and realistic than a lot of this game stuff (mast sniping, infinite in combat repair, Enterprise like crew teleport in OW... setting aside manouvrability of ships).

And that a better trained (marines, Nassau boarders, 5rings) and better geared ( muskets and grenades) crew will overcome another (often fewer) is the most single realistic feature of the game.

I'd note that a boarder is devoting almost all his slots to it. Giving up reload, precision, repair, etc ... Easy going only gunnery fully modded for it against no mods. Right?

Secondly if you get boarded not being prepped is your fault: there is plenty counters.

Thirdly you can devote 2 easy books (axes and barricades) to be a pain to board. Ah, right: you have to give up some fancier stuff.

Fortly you get the determined defender crap... 2 boarding ships so unable to board eachother even if both wishing to do so: happened to me in a weird LGV refit v Requin battle.

Fiftly you consider stern camping a SOL or hugging to her with an Hercules more real. Long way to get a grasp on 1800 naval combat.

 

OT suggestion is well reasonable. Even too soft. I'd rework DD to make it having boarding timer / pulling longer function of crew ratios: the more defending crew the longer, the more attacking crew the shorter.

 

PS: personally I cant hear anymore speaking about "rage" boarding.

There is no last ditch rage in my boarding and in majority of other boarders.

Everything from wood choise passing with mods then tagging and the very first manouver is aimed to it. Well before ever seeing a single enemy. So definately cold blooded.

And I raided mainly the very same way well before Requin. So no P2W crap please.

 

PPS:

Would you ask a more interesting boarding game? I agree.

But realism, again, calls that a better lead, better trained, better equipped, better prepped crew will still win over an inferior one. I would add, even if the latter is in higher numbers.

 

[Hethwill]

Maybe rework true broadside weight to make people think twice ? I mean, can you imagine what a 74  would do to a brig or a 26/32 gun cruiser if the latter makes one single mistake....!...? Or what a 120 gun would do to a 64 ?

Maybe rework spawn distance for warning shot range ? No way you would sneak up under her skirts ( forget false flags ).

When Rabman points out selective realism, he knows exactly what he is saying.

Careful what you wish for.

[Old Crusty]

29 minutes ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

There is a reason aircraft carriers have escort ships

Um, aircraft carriers do not have their own offensive ship to ship firepower to defend themselves. That is s large part of the reason to have an escort.

[Old Crusty]

So what I am hearing so far is “hugging a bigger ship to death is part of the game. Deal with it”. Here I thought we were testers and we were supposed to find ways to improve the game.

[Raf Van Boom]

It would make all smaller ships useless and there would be packs of 1st rates sailing around... Not sure you realize that the only reason why you don't see many 1st rates in the OW is because of this. Your suggestion fixes one problem and creates a new one. You also seem to have a problem with determined defender, and I don't think you understand the consequences fully.

I don't think testers are supposed to find ways to improve the game, we provide feedback and devs do the rest, and besides that, whatever you said it's not something that hasn't been said a 1000 times already.

[Hethwill]

Nope Crusty, no way, no one is to let the arms down  keep rolling the boulder. There are others ways for sure.

There are more SOLs sailing around than 32 gun frigates and non full rigs. Think about that when connecting the dots. Once that part is accepted by us, with birth giving pains of how hard building a SOL is, then we can look to how powerful they really were.

Funny how things are  ; they could really be queens of Conquest and certainly be extremely challenging, almost suicidal to attack in a corvetter, but I guess we rather have it it extremely easy construction, negligible really when compared to realism without selectivity.

At this stage I am out of ideas other than shot being truly dangerous but SOLS would have to be really rare, as we are playing the game many asked for - broadside to broadside - maybe just not the way they imagined it to be.

[Raf Van Boom]

That's a lot of words in what appears to be sentences that don't make sense together.

[Hethwill]

Just now, Le Raf Boom said:

That's a lot of words in what appears to be sentences that don't make sense together.

6 months real time worth of LH to build a 90 gun SOL

SOL broadside weight is enough to send a 46 gun frigate to hell and back.

happy ?

[Licinio Chiavari]

9 minutes ago, Le Raf Boom said:

It would make all smaller ships useless and there would be packs of 1st rates sailing around... Not sure you realize that the only reason why you don't see many 1st rates in the OW is because of this. Your suggestion fixes one problem and creates a new one. You also seem to have a problem with determined defender, and I don't think you understand the consequences fully.

I don't think testers are supposed to find ways to improve the game, we provide feedback and devs do the rest, and besides that, whatever you said it's not something that hasn't been said a 1000 times already.

Broken Logic.

Arent vets saying it is simple to counter a smaller ship?

Arent vets saying that SoLs should not sail alone?

Still I see hunting packs going around in 5th rates mainly.

 

[Raf Van Boom]

Yes, that does make sense, you could try and keep it concise. You have a very strange style of writing, flowery, oratory almost.

[Hethwill]

Just now, Le Raf Boom said:

Yes, that does make sense, you could try and keep it concise. You have a very strange style of writing, flowery, oratory almost.

My english tutor said i must try to write as much as i can. Sorry  

[Licinio Chiavari]

1 minute ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

My english tutor said i must try to write as much as i can. Sorry  

English and rich oratory rarely work well together.

Brits had to import Shakespeare to get a grasp of the power of words. 🤣🤣🤣

[Raf Van Boom]

3 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Broken Logic.

Arent vets saying it is simple to counter a smaller ship?

Arent vets saying that SoLs should not sail alone?

Still I see hunting packs going around in 5th rates mainly.

 

What's your point? I'm trying to make sense of what you wrote and failing, I think you might have misunderstood my post.

[Raf Van Boom]

Probably true, it's usually short and to the point in English, I do speak other languages where these extra words are a welcome addition but to me now that's just useless fluff

[p i t]

ship hugging was taken to the extreme with a 32lb carro -low hulled le requim... take away its carros.

[Hethwill]

Sure. Will try to be more direct and raw. 

[Dibbler (Retired)]

35 minutes ago, Old Crusty said:

So what I am hearing so far is “hugging a bigger ship to death is part of the game. Deal with it”. Here I thought we were testers and we were supposed to find ways to improve the game.

 

If you turn your front sail you can lower guns by heeling on bigger ship and turn the smaller into matchwood.

I do think hugging though is silly tbh.

Sailing a SOL without escorts though is a bad move in general.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Dibbler

[Licinio Chiavari]

Just now, Le Raf Boom said:

What's your point? I'm trying to make sense of what you wrote and failing, I think you might have misunderstood my post.

You said that making sols better at defending will give no use to smaller ones.

But vets says they already able to defend themselves especially if 2-3 together.

So: why arent all hunting packs sailing on SoLs?

[Raf Van Boom]

2 minutes ago, pit said:

ship hugging was taken to the extreme with a 32lb carro -low hulled le requim... take away its carros.

Are you back @pit? We've missed you! Take away the carros and the result will be the same, it will just prolong the agony!

[Raf Van Boom]

2 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

You said that making sols better at defending will give no use to smaller ones.

But vets says they already able to defend themselves especially if 2-3 together.

So: why arent all hunting packs sailing on SoLs?

You mean people don't hunt in Bellonas? Or is this specifically about 1st rates? I can't speak for everyone else but I do not hunt in a SoL because most PvP happens in protected areas and I simply want to have a chance to survive the encounter, that's one, two if I come in 1st rate I will mostly likely be never tagged,

[Tom Farseer]

39 minutes ago, Old Crusty said:

1 hour ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

There is a reason aircraft carriers have escort ships

Um, aircraft carriers do not have their own offensive ship to ship firepower to defend themselves. That is s large part of the reason to have an escort.

You comment one the snide remarks and miss the  important part.

 

1 hour ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

People really seem to have difficulty with reversing.

[...] lose the *line up alongside to shoot* mentality.

Put your ship into the wind, and start reversing. Works against Herc, works against Reqs if you do it right.

[p i t]

gives the SOL more time to figure out how to get out of it...and theres plenty of ways.

And

™soon

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by pit