Imported vessels - limited capture; safe teleport using fleets fix

[admin]

Hello Captains

Imported ship capture

We plan to update the capturable status for all vessels to make the rule: you can capture everything you see in the instance (temporarily for the duration of the battle). It will remove the annoying feature that you cannot capture imported ships in the instance. 

Here is how it will work. 

There are certain ships in the game that you cannot capture (e.g imported ships from players)

• You will be able to capture imported (premium) ships in the instance . Admiralty will take control of those vessels and compensate their prize money. 
• If you have no fleet after battle you will be sent to port. If you have a fleet after battle (for example your previous ship) you will be assigned to the ship in your fleet.

Safe teleport

Safe teleport from the instance using npc ship capture and surrender will also be fixed. If you have a fleet ship you will not be sent to port, but will be assigned to your fleet vessel. 

 

These two features will be delivered within next 2 patches (either with port UI or right after). 

[Archaos]

2 hours ago, admin said:

If you have a fleet ship you will not be sent to port, but will be assigned to your fleet vessel. 

How will this affect trader ships in fleet? Will you be assigned to one of your traders if you lose your main ship or does this only apply when you have captured ships in battle?

Even if it does only apply to ships captured in battle, how will it affect a raider who has captured a trader and wants to keep it because the cargo is more valuable than the PvP marks he would get for sinking it, yet after capturing in he is sunk by other ships in the same instance after he has sent the trader away. Does he now end up on a trader deep in enemy waters with a possible revenge fleet waiting for him?

[Christendom]

ETA on the next patch?  July has already come and gone it seems.  

[z4ys]

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

How will this affect trader ships in fleet? Will you be assigned to one of your traders if you lose your main ship or does this only apply when you have captured ships in battle?

Even if it does only apply to ships captured in battle, how will it affect a raider who has captured a trader and wants to keep it because the cargo is more valuable than the PvP marks he would get for sinking it, yet after capturing in he is sunk by other ships in the same instance after he has sent the trader away. Does he now end up on a trader deep in enemy waters with a possible revenge fleet waiting for him?

if i understand correct:

Trader sails with 4 ships. He splits -  3 fleetships sail  in different directions fleet ships escape. Player trader ship gets sunk. Trader spawns at the battle symbol in one of his 3 fleet ships. raider can continue to kill the other 3 ships. Splitting the trade ships will not help after this patch. Trader will have to start fighting for their stuff and not get free rides.

Edited August 6, 2018 by z4ys

[Ortac]

I presume this ruling applies if you transfer yourself and your crew to the captured ship, then continue the battle in the captured ship until you leave or the battle simply ends.

There is nowhere in Admin's post that mentions this.

[z4ys]

4 hours ago, admin said:

Safe teleport

Safe teleport from the instance using npc ship capture and surrender will also be fixed. If you have a fleet ship you will not be sent to port, but will be assigned to your fleet vessel.  

 

These two features will be delivered within next 2 patches (either with port UI or right after). 

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

How will this affect trader ships in fleet? Will you be assigned to one of your traders if you lose your main ship or does this only apply when you have captured ships in battle?

Even if it does only apply to ships captured in battle, how will it affect a raider who has captured a trader and wants to keep it because the cargo is more valuable than the PvP marks he would get for sinking it, yet after capturing in he is sunk by other ships in the same instance after he has sent the trader away. Does he now end up on a trader deep in enemy waters with a possible revenge fleet waiting for him?

2 minutes ago, Ortac said:

I presume this ruling applies if you transfer yourself and your crew to the captured ship, then continue the battle in the captured ship until you leave or the battle simply ends.

There is nowhere in Admin's post that mentions this.

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by z4ys

[Archaos]

7 minutes ago, z4ys said:

if i understand correct:

Trader sails with 4 ships. He splits -  3 fleetships sail  in different directions fleet ships escape. Player trader ship gets sunk. Trader spawns at the battle symbol in one of his 3 fleet ships. raider can continue to kill the other 3 ships. Splitting the trade ships will not help after this patch. Trader will have to start fighting for their stuff and not get free rides.

Well that would be just wrong as it makes it too easy for the raider as he can take his time killing the trader rather than have to try and get them quickly before they escape. The only defense for a trader is to delay the attacker so much that the rest of the fleet escapes. If you now make them have to fight individually on each ship in the fleet you may as well get rid of fleets and trading altogether.

Can I also ask is this the response from the Devs or just your interpretation of what has been announced? I would like it confirmed from the Devs.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Archaos

[z4ys]

1 minute ago, Archaos said:

Well that would be just wrong as it makes it too easy for the raider as he can take his time killing the trader rather than have to try and get them quickly before they escape. The only defense for a trader is to delay the attacker so much that the rest of the fleet escapes. If you now make them have to fight individually on each ship in the fleet you may as well get rid of fleets and trading altogether.

or trader could just atucal start to equip guns and fight instead of accepting what they think is their fate.

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, z4ys said:

or trader could just atucal start to equip guns and fight instead of accepting what they think is their fate.

Get real, about the only trader ship that could stand any chance against another vessel even when armed is an Indiaman, the rest just have too few crew or guns to make any difference against any serious opposition. The only option for traders is running and scattering so that at least some escape when facing a single raider. This also replicates the reality of it, if the raider spends too much time capturing one trader the rest have time to get away. A skilled raider can keep multiple ships tagged and capture and sink them all, so this now just looks like another way of making it easier for the raiders, and people have the cheek to call traders "carebears".

[z4ys]

Quote

Get real, about the only trader ship that could stand any chance against another vessel even when armed is an Indiaman, the rest just have too few crew or guns to make any difference against any serious opposition. The only option for traders is running and scattering so that at least some escape when facing a single raider. This also replicates the reality of it, if the raider spends too much time capturing one trader the rest have time to get away. A skilled raider can keep multiple ships tagged and capture and sink them all, so this now just looks like another way of making it easier for the raiders, and people have the cheek to call traders "carebears".

Why not use a convoy guarding ship like wappen? No lets take 4 traders for maximum profit no guns no repairs and cry afterwards that the trader has no chance.

Then lets scatter so only 1 ship is able to focus the 1 raider instead of all ships focusing the hull of the raider so he has to withdraw. ANd most important part stick together.

Withdraw of the attacker is a win for the trader.

But i understand crying and being a sheep is easier. The ones that put up a fight are the ones that get away. Nobody expects a trader to fight. An agressive trader will always get you by surprise.

[Sella]

8 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Get real, about the only trader ship that could stand any chance against another vessel even when armed is an Indiaman, the rest just have too few crew or guns to make any difference against any serious opposition. The only option for traders is running and scattering so that at least some escape when facing a single raider. This also replicates the reality of it, if the raider spends too much time capturing one trader the rest have time to get away. A skilled raider can keep multiple ships tagged and capture and sink them all, so this now just looks like another way of making it easier for the raiders, and people have the cheek to call traders "carebears".

Psst.. I've heard that this problem can be solved with player escorts

[z4ys]

1 minute ago, Sella22 said:

Psst.. I've heard that this problem can be solved with player escorts

in a 1 privateer vs 4 merchants scenario even self defense will solve that

[Hethwill]

2 minutes ago, z4ys said:

in a 1 privateer vs 4 merchants scenario even self defense will solve that

Problem is the squadrons.

So we have a organization issue.

Gankers take time to organize themselves and sail together.

Traders cannot spare a minute to organize themselves in a large convoy and sail together.

I mean... mechanics cannot possible cover all of the human made choices.

 

I am intrigued about this change and eager to see it in practice.

[Sella]

I don't get why there should be a failsafe for everything. If you get tagged in your trader fleet you have done something wrong(chose the wrong route) or you were plain unlucky. 

Back on topic, a small but meaningful addition. I like it.

[Raf Van Boom]

I'm more interested in status report for this 'economy/UI' patch, this stuff does not pique my interest at all.

[Archaos]

6 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Why not use a convoy guarding ship like wappen? No lets take 4 traders for maximum profit no guns no repairs and cry afterwards that the trader has no chance.

Then lets scatter so only 1 ship is able to focus the 1 raider instead of all ships focusing the hull of the raider so he has to withdraw. ANd most important part stick together.

Withdraw of the attacker is a win for the trader.

But i understand crying and being a sheep is easier. The ones that put up a fight are the ones that get away. Nobody expects a trader to fight. An agressive trader will always get you by surprise.

Even with an escort, the reality of it is that the trader ships in the fleet would scatter and the escorts job is to allow the traders sufficient time to escape. Traders are not supposed to be fighting ships and if you remember correctly there was a time when you could not even install guns on them.

People keep mentioning player escorts, but they have never tried employing someone to act as player escort or they would soon find that they could not find anyone to do it or that the price charged is so exorbitant that its is not worth it.

Even with 4 fully armed trader brigs working together, one single Le Requin could rage board them each in turn without blinking and take each one out in a single round in boarding.

I have faced a raider before in an unarmed trader and managed to stop him boarding for best part of 30 minutes while my other fleet ships escaped, why should I then be back at square 1 and have to go through it all again for each of my other ships, surely that time I have bought them would have taken them well away from the battle even when you account for the time differences between instance and OW.

On the other hand I have attacked fleets of traders and the skill is keeping them all tagged so you can get as many of them as possible. Now you want to remove that challenge so the raider can leisurely take down the player because he knows that the rest will be waiting for him to do it all over again. So basically no skill required. 

[Hethwill]

Escort duty mean the warship must be ready to face the odds. The escorts ships safety is secondary to the convoy. Not many are ready to do this.

 

[Archaos]

14 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Problem is the squadrons.

So we have a organization issue.

Gankers take time to organize themselves and sail together.

Traders cannot spare a minute to organize themselves in a large convoy and sail together.

I mean... mechanics cannot possible cover all of the human made choices.

 

I am intrigued about this change and eager to see it in practice.

In the case of gankers or organised groups of raiders, there is not an issue as they will be able to take out all the traders in one instance. This change if it works like I suspect it will give too much advantage to the raiders and increase what is already easy PvP marks, as they will get PvP marks for each trader they kill.

If it only applies to ships captured in battle and not ships already in fleet, then I have no issue with it.

[Hethwill]

Just now, Archaos said:

as they will get PvP marks for each trader they kill.

? I see no mention of that.

[Archaos]

2 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Escort duty mean the warship must be ready to face the odds. The escorts ships safety is secondary to the convoy. Not many are ready to do this.

 

Exactly and the escort ships sacrifice if he cannot overcome the odds means that the traders have time to escape, but now it looks like you can lose both so no point in having an escort.

[Hethwill]

Just now, Archaos said:

Exactly and the escort ships sacrifice if he cannot overcome the odds means that the traders have time to escape, but now it looks like you can lose both so no point in having an escort.

I mean both escorts and trader convoy are players. Not AI. Hence the comparison of - organization. Raiders have to organize themselves. Traders have to organize themselves. Or...I mean... sorry... I thought this trade convoy is already done by many, maybe i'm wrong.

[Percival Merewether]

2 minutes ago, Archaos said:

They will get PvP marks for each trader they kill.

While this is true in theory, it will require the raider to drag the battle out for a full hour - I doubt that will happen.

To be on the safe side though, it may be a good idea to prevent the "Recently kill" timer from counting down during battle. Just to avoid kiting of course.

[Archaos]

Just now, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

? I see no mention of that.

Okay look at this example, I sail out with a Wappen as they suggested to escort my fleet of 3 Indiamen, I get attacked by a single raider and I send my 3 Indiamen away and fight with my Wappen, I am up against a skilled raider and he defeats me but my 3 Indiamen have escaped. So the instance ends and now I appear in OW in one of my Indiamen with 2 Indiamen in fleet so the raider tags me again and this repeats over another couple on instances till all my ships are sunk. Are you saying he will not get PvP marks for each kill, rather than the current single set of PvP marks for the kill on the Wappen?

[Hethwill]

Just now, Archaos said:

Okay look at this example, I sail out with a Wappen as they suggested to escort my fleet of 3 Indiamen, I get attacked by a single raider and I send my 3 Indiamen away and fight with my Wappen, I am up against a skilled raider and he defeats me but my 3 Indiamen have escaped. So the instance ends and now I appear in OW in one of my Indiamen with 2 Indiamen in fleet so the raider tags me again and this repeats over another couple on instances till all my ships are sunk. Are you saying he will not get PvP marks for each kill, rather than the current single set of PvP marks for the kill on the Wappen?

Okay, thanks for the example.

I see a very strong reason for traders to organize convoys and simulate this 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pulo_Aura

or this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali_Strait_Incident

[Archaos]

2 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

While this is true in theory, it will require the raider to drag the battle out for a full hour - I doubt that will happen.

To be on the safe side though, it may be a good idea to prevent the "Recently kill" timer from counting down during battle. Just to avoid kiting of course.

This raises an interesting point, so after the first instance the raider will drag the next battle out over an hour so he can get more PvP marks, just keeping the vessel tagged enough to keep him in battle till the timer expires and he can get more PvP marks, then rinse and repeat for the next two fleet vessels. You may doubt that will happen but I can guarantee it will happen even if it is just for trolling purposes.