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Keeping Your Ship After a Lost


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Losing, losing, losing doesn’t help anyone, PvP, even PvE, and especially the game.

By letting players keep their ship after a lost, not only it’s good for player retention but un-savvy players can come back to the battle and try again and again and again, until they get better and begin to start to put up a fight and against more experienced players, even start to challenge them and the status-quo, it’s a win-win for everybody.

Obviously a insurance mechanic is the answer, players to insure their ship for the return of their ship.

But capturing is a problem, you can’t split a ship into two and give one to the captor and one to the loser.

So for the one ship state only …

When a ship is captured, if the ship is insured, then a “Collect  Insurance” button is enable and if the ship is not insured the button disable.

This would give the captor a juicy option, keep or collect.

Now here’s my twist on it…

“The insurees gets to set the insurance amount!”, the sum the captor collects, this way there are choices on both sides, especially for the captor, if the sum is worth it, "juicy" or "pitiful". The sum to show up on the button.

Now there’s still potential for lost, risk but also now opportunity for profit, yield and returns for both parties, and thus still keeping within the developers theme and keeping the population healthy.

 

PS, if a player ship is release back to them, then I would also suggest a “Retreat Flag” to be assigned to them and their ship, so the player can sail back to their outpost ratter than directly returning to port. No player can attack anyone under a retreat flag, they’re usually heavily damage anyway. To last until the player enters a outpost or if the player uses any of their repairs while in OW. And maybe the player to be voided from attacking anyone else too (penalty).

 

Update…

Insurance fee to be restricted.

7th Rate Ships - Unavailable.

6th Rate Ships - 50k limit.

5th Rate Ships - Unlimited fund.   

4th Rate Ships - Unlimited fund.   

3rd Rate Ships - Unlimited fund.  

2nd Rate Ships - Unavailable.

1st Rate Ships - Unavailable.

 

7th rate ships, players to earn the ability by reaching 6th rate (crew-able level).

6th rate ships, 50k is the base cost to re-place/re-build a Cerberus, highest 6th rate, so if the loser losses out on the 50/50 choice of the captor, then they can withdraw the insurance fund and re-build anyway and being limited, will impose a slender risk/reward aspect.  

5th, 4th, 3rd rate ships, this is the bulk of the mechanic, to cater for every player trying to play the game to its full “battle” amplitude, as stated, the mechanic only mitigates risk to a 50/50 chance of lost but now a chance of players bettering themselves and learning how to compete and eventually emulating the elite.

2nd, 1st rate ships, these levels to be played at the full simulator breadth and experience, so-to-speak, if you want to play with big boys, then you should play with unbridle risk.

 

PvE

The AI captor/game should have a mean sales cost of the ship in question, if your funds are about close to that then it’s a 50/50 roll of the dice, with greater funds the odds are favourable, less funds the odds will diminish.

 

 

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Ships aren't that difficult to get (aside from 1st rates which you need a clan to produce). And these days all you need is gold because people sell ships all over the map.

Letting a player keep his or her ship after a loss not only robs the game of any meaning but it quite literally robs the winner of any benefit. It would lead to much more griefing and fireships. 

80% of the fun in this game is the risk/reward system of ships. This is part of the reason I dislike the DLC. 

Edited by RedNeckMilkMan
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4 minutes ago, RedNeckMilkMan said:

They had this system before the wipe. Ships lost all value.

Good point, I’ve only recently joined and I don’t know but was the game populate back then?

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2 minutes ago, BuckleUpBones said:

Good point, I’ve only recently joined and I don’t know but was the game populate back then?

 

The game had more players back then because it was newer. Post wipe it had a resurgence of players in the same way it does now when a patch drops.

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9 minutes ago, RedNeckMilkMan said:

Ships aren't that difficult to get (aside from 1st rates which you need a clan to produce). And these days all you need is gold because people sell ships all over the map.

Letting a player keep his or her ship after a loss not only robs the game of any meaning but it quite literally robs the winner of any benefit. It would lead to much more griefing and fireships. 

80% of the fun in this game is the risk/reward system of ships. This is part of the reason I dislike the DLC. 

I hope we'll get buy contracts for ships with the new port UI. As it is more guessing what people might be looking for right now for crafters.

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2 hours ago, RedNeckMilkMan said:

80% of the fun in this game is the risk/reward system of ships

I disagree with that 100%.

No fun with total lost!

Take just the upgrades and not anything else, it takes a reasonable amount of effort to grind them out, fun, but once sunk all is lost, is that fun!

No offence but In my opinion, that risk/reward lost doesn’t outweigh accomplishment of crafting, upgrading and sailing those ships back into battle again and again.

For me in PvE at the moment , even against AIs, I’m not going risk my 2nd rate ship, it was too much of an effort to get her. I just want to go into a winnable combat, that is just to keep her, just to keep her even if I go into a challenge.

Can you understand that, accomplishment! This “Fun” applies to PvP, especially PvP!

Wouldn’t it be better to have battles of fully upgraded ships, equally upgraded on both sides.

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1 hour ago, RedNeckMilkMan said:

80% of the fun in this game is the risk/reward system of ships. This is part of the reason I dislike the DLC. 

Maybe for you and the rest of the 10% gamers that think that way, but for the rest they don't like getting camped and every ship sunk every two seconds by vets that won't go fight each other .  There needs to be safe zones (real safe zones) so the casuals can play and the others can grow.  You run off all the Casuals, RP guys, and Traders you have no more sheep to hunt.   Only wolves and that gets really boring real fast.  

I got to give Chris Roberston credit for something he said in one of the last videos they did for star citizens about PvE and PvP.  There is a reason they are making the game 80% AI over it being all PvP, it's not fun to get killed/ganked all the time from players, so instead you give them a lot of AI to fight and do other things than just PvP.  As dieing all the time isn't fun.  I booked marked it where he talks about PvE and PvP.

 

 

Edited by Sir Texas Sir
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2 hours ago, RedNeckMilkMan said:

Ships aren't that difficult to get (aside from 1st rates which you need a clan to produce). And these days all you need is gold because people sell ships all over the map.

By the time you have crafted or purchased a decent ship, there can be a sizable investment. The upgrades often cost more than the ship itself or require a grind to either find rare materials like copper or a port that sells upgrades. If combat marks or PvP Marks are needed to procure upgrades like Naval Hull Refit, then even more time is required. The ship becomes an investment some players are reluctant to loose. 

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Seems that risk is a choice.

We can chose to sail a ship we can afford to lose.

Players that become very wealthy can afford to lose more expensive vessels, mods and cargo.  Often the reward for this risk may be greater.

Clans can afford the biggest losses and can take huge risks, for potentially huge rewards.

I sail little ships because I have a modest trading business.  I like the excitement of the PvP server.   

It doesn't sound like a great idea to remove the risk via insurance just so everyone can sail expensive boats, with more expensive mods, and not care about sinking/losing them.

 

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9 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

Seems that risk is a choice.

We can chose to sail a ship we can afford to lose.

Players that become very wealthy can afford to lose more expensive vessels, mods and cargo.  Often the reward for this risk may be greater.

Clans can afford the biggest losses and can take huge risks, for potentially huge rewards.

I sail little ships because I have a modest trading business.  I like the excitement of the PvP server.   

It doesn't sound like a great idea to remove the risk via insurance just so everyone can sail expensive boats, with more expensive mods, and not care about sinking/losing them.

 

Mods are unbalanced and greatly affect the outcome of any battle. A wealthy person with all the right books and mods will no doubtedly be more likely to win regardless of the skill or effort that got them to that point. Why should you get it any easier because you have all the gold in the world to fund your expeditions.

Battles getting decided by risk aversion and materials before they even happen. No wonder this game has reputation for being excessively new player unfriendly. It's pay to win in the figurative and the literal sense.

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2 hours ago, Macjimm said:

Seems that risk is a choice.

We can chose to sail a ship we can afford to lose.

Players that become very wealthy can afford to lose more expensive vessels, mods and cargo.  Often the reward for this risk may be greater.

Clans can afford the biggest losses and can take huge risks, for potentially huge rewards.

I sail little ships because I have a modest trading business.  I like the excitement of the PvP server.   

It doesn't sound like a great idea to remove the risk via insurance just so everyone can sail expensive boats, with more expensive mods, and not care about sinking/losing them.

Most solo players can’t handle this kind of lost as describe but really, can clans without population?

It must be hard for developers, risk/reward vs effort/deeds.

Point of fact, the suggestion doesn't remove all the risk, it just mitigates to maybe a 50/50 level, please don't just read the titlebar.

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from a old paper i wrote

"Our aim, as players, is not to undermine the established status quo provided by the practical design, established setting, playing board, governing rules; but to provide the content ( narratives and stories that shape the play world ) that the rules do not create, given rules themselves are sterile without scenarios to apply them in and, obviously, the players to conduct themselves through those same scenarios ( the conflict resolution  )."

...

playing solo = single player

NA is a multiplayer game.

---

the choices made by the players by remaining in the zones, preferring to play the "what if..." card of having a battle always open instead of playing more safe with a battle that closes in 3 minutes is the greatest loss culprit.

I would advocate a navy commander to always have a ship if we had a game design based on career. Alas we do not.

Also Insurance ( unless 100% face value... but how to define face value ? the cost of the materials ? the price you paid to another player ?  ) can be very very very easily be exploited to generate wealth without effort.

Overcome "Gear Fear" and enjoy.

Also, it is a multiplayer game and design is based on that player will cooperate. Solo is a choice of the player. It is bringing the difficulty from normal to hard. It is not the "intended" standard gameplay unless you are ready to accept that it will be difficult and very challenging at all levels.

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13 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Mods are unbalanced and greatly affect the outcome of any battle. A wealthy person with all the right books and mods will no doubtedly be more likely to win regardless of the skill or effort that got them to that point. Why should you get it any easier because you have all the gold in the world to fund your expeditions.

 You make a good point.  Perhaps there is problems with the mods.

I don't have expensive mods or all the gold in the world.  If the mods are unbalanced I'm not sure insurance will make losing more fun. It is still a loss. My point was; that if there is no risk there is less excitement.   I prefer the PvP server verses the PvE.  

I have heard lots of complaints that the DLC content has encouraged gameplay where players do not care if they lose a ship because it will be promptly replaced.  Seems to me that easy replacement can be viewed as an improvement or a degradation depending on your goals.

I'm more inclined towards a game environment where there is some atmosphere of danger.   I think that insurance might foster attitudes were players don't care how they play.

Currently if players want to use very expensive ships that are difficult to replace they have options to use support from other players and sail in a group.  They could also accept replacement mods or ships from a clan.   Perhaps it is unfair if players are stronger when they work together but the opportunity of a collective advantage can create teamwork and cooperation.

It's speculation from my vantage.  I don't participate in player squadrons or utilize the resources of a powerful clan.  But the player interactions are facinating, and I enjoy hearing about the open world sandbox MMO politics.  It provides content and a richer story.

13 hours ago, BuckleUpBones said:

Most solo players can’t handle this kind of lost as describe but really, can clans without population?

Not sure what you are asking.  I am not very knowledgeable of the clans in NA.  For myself I am able to handle the losses in game.  Perhaps my expectations are too modest.  I don't think I can handle loss much better than other players.

I read your posts, not just the title.

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11 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

"Our aim, as players, is not to undermine the established status quo provided by the practical design... )."

The game is in Alpha, isn't it, to me that means free-for-all suggestions, rules aren’t set! why have an suggestion forum if you can’t suggest! On release games are to be played on their merits, I agree.

11 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

NA is a multiplayer game.

What! That means nothing, if Game-Labs went exclusively MMO, hypothetically, it be like having a ticket on the Titanic! Please google some gaming surveys on solo players.

 

11 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Also Insurance ( unless 100% face value... but how to define face value ? the cost of the materials ? the price you paid to another player ?  ) can be very very very easily be exploited to generate wealth without effort.

Winning the battle is the first effort, I can’t see any difference between capturing/selling or collecting insurance fee, valuing wise.

 

11 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Overcome "Gear Fear" and enjoy.

Its not “Gear Fear” (sounds like a clan term), more the "Waste of Effort".

I’ve just crafted a Bucentaure, it took me 4 days to just level up a “Level 3 Shipyard”, the fittings! 2000!, another 2 days for resources, 2 days to craft materials, another day to craft her, every step of the way dog-tied by “Labour Hours”.

Now I’m to grind-out the upgrades, I only play a few hours at night, so maybe a week, most likely more.

Nek minnit sunk! oh no, no, no! the lost! I feel like I should rage-quit!     (not really though).

This is the perspective, this is exactly why I’m playing PvE.

If this effort could be saved in PvP, then I would absolutely 100% play PvP, I prefer PvP generally, mostly better opponents! but I’ve played too many games before to go through this wasted effort again, and again, and again.... …..  …..  …..

 

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I feel your pain. We all do. (Except for the aholes lol). We've all lost ships that hurt. Hell, I can build multiple copies of any ship and put on the best upgrades and still hate it when I lose a store bought Snow.

As others have suggested, playing with others significantly helps mitgate losses.

Playing solo makes most things take longer. That includes building wealth and a fleet. You're very concerned about the Buc you worked so hard on. That's understandable. It's a nice ship. But I'd suggest that if one Buc represents so high a percentage of your game wealth and effort -- and its potential loss stresses you this much -- you may have built and started sailing a 2nd rate too soon.

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21 minutes ago, Farrago said:

and its potential loss stresses you this much -- you may have built and started sailing a 2nd rate too soon.

Not at all, just my take on an insurance mechanic, that's all, maybe I've been pressing it home to hard, LOL.

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13 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

playing solo = single player

NA is a multiplayer game.

by that logic any other online game has to be played with others, else you're not playing it online..?

why make such a hard restriction? playing solo in this game works perfectly if you wish to do so (true, in limited options compared to having the options of crafting lots of ships in a clan), but still

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For Jack:

I usually sail a T Lynx with a 2 T Lynx fleet.

  • Most upgrades are too expensive but I use some Cotton Sails and some books that help with speed (Optimized Ballast, Staysails, etc).   
  • I don't use expensive Ship Knowledge items.  It would make me too afraid to risk the ship. 
  • I have traded goods for Cotton Sails or bought them in Free Towns.  Don't spend much on them.
  • I don't carry cannon on any trade vessels because I'm a merchant and combat against most raiders in such small ships is pretty much futile.  Mostly I just get bored very quickly with the fighting.  Also the cannon will slow your speed, but probably not much. 
  • If you don't mind a little shooting you can carry Rig Repairs, cannon and load chain.  Head straight at the raider, aim at the raider's sails to slow him/her down as you pass.  If you sustain some rig damage, use your sail repair and then run upwind.  I've never tried this against a player but it sounds like fun.
  • You could replace one of the T Lynx with a warship.  Some players sail the warship and it will allow the fleet to escape.  (Soon this new patch will eliminate any chance for fleet ships to escape.)   Or you can use a warship as one of your fleet ships and give it orders to de-mast the enemy.  This may allow you to get far enough away from the raider to exit the battle instance ... and escape.  
  • Forget about changing ships in an instance while under fire, there is simply not enough time.
  • I never sail with more than 50% cargo because I think this gives me no speed reduction.  Could be delusional, I've not tested it.
  • You can outrun most ships if you sail closehauled.  When you see a raider approaching ...run.  Some ships will over take the T Lynx; like a Prince, Lynx or perhaps a Le Requin or Xebec.    Just hope that you don't see them.   If you see them too often, your trade route is in a poor location.  Pick a new port. 
  • Buy your Trade ships cheap and consider the loss part of doing business.  You are a target for raiders.  It is part of the game.  I find that the cost of a ship is much less than the cost of the lost cargo.  There are ship builders who will sell you decently fast T Lynx for a reasonable price.
  • Ask for help from your buddies who like fighting.  They often will shadow you on a trip eager to get in a fight.  Usually they are disappointed if the journey ends and you were not attacked.

Above all be vigilant.  Don't stop scanning for raiders.  Sail away from the coastlines.  You are most vulnerable as you approach a capital.  Never stop 360 watch.  Someday I hope the Devs will provide some sort of AI "Look Out" that will call out when they see enemy players, but in the meantime it is a boring tiresome part of the game.  Damn lazy mute crew.

z4ys offered a suggestion;  "Just surrender rightaway  while your ships escaped. raider has to sail towards your lost ship while you leave the battle and sail away with the remaining ships? Giving you a huge headstart".  I haven't tried this but it is worth a try.

If you are still having trouble getting ganked you might want to switch Nations.  I understand that it is much easier to be a trader for France than for the United States.  And the players are very helpful.  United States may be a difficult nation for traders.  I have only sailed for Great Britain.

Supplementary;  Be a gent don't destroy your cargo just to deny the raiders who are ganking you.   Your cargo makes the fight more worthwhile for them.   Although it seems reasonable to destroy your cargo when players are being unnecessarily rude.

Hope that helps.  Fair winds and happy trading.  The best part of this game is the community content.  

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I’ve updated the OP.

I’ve come to realize that there are two distinct sides to this debate, one, “The RvR dominating clan choking gankers”, and two, “The unescorted defender of the faith”.  

So now I think an insurance mechanic won’t work for the realm but still no mechanic will be dubious for the population, hence in the OP is a compromise.

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