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I know that damages due to collision were removed because of abuse of kamikaze attitude of some… But it is totally unrealistic that a large ship be taken of by a small boats. a 6 rate or lover ship turning around and Killing the crew of ship of the line, is totally aberrant. Any 6 or even 5 rate ship entering in collision with a sol would have sunk on the spot or be so damaged that he could not do much after the encounter. Some kind of ship damage due to collision should be re-implemented, in my opinion.

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Agreed, this would balance out rageboarding a bit, at least temporarily because any ship can be rammed upwind, and small ships hugging much larger ships is slight bullcrap imo.

but only in the case of a large ship with a smaller one should it be large amounts of damage, otherwise we have problems.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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Head on colision should be devastating for both ships meybe not for unrated vs lineship. If Requin and Endy collide head on requin should suffer mast breakage,severe crew and cannon loss plus water leakage eg no way he will rageboard Endy whom also would suffer serious damage 

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A big ship crashing into a small ship, both ships come to a standstill except bow to stern. Even diesel engine one.

Check whatever vids you want. There's even a freighter crashing into a yacht and upon collision both come to a standstill right away.

So yeah... push meeeeeeeeeeee..... i'm being boarded.... :D 

Regarding damage, yes. One corvette from the portuguese navy under John Jarvis, and Marques de Nisa as vice admiral, assigned to mediterranean fleet was crushed when it was rammed at beam by a ship of the line with great loss of life. Was totally wrecked. The ship of the line was badly damaged as well but could reach port for repair works.

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Ships coming to a sudden stop (ie ramming a larger ship) should lose their masts, spring dozens of leaks and suffer crew shock.  When a large ship (SOL) rams a smaller ship it should cause severe damage and a Xebec should always be cut in half if t-boned.

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Ramming, pushing etc, should not be a thing, implementing that would be a serious challenge though. Ramming in particular has a great potential for abuse.

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To find a good and satisfying balance so that it won't get abused is the key and very difficult. T-boning a ship of equal size and also only slightly smaller ones (obviously also for larger ships) with "high" speed should always result in heavy damage for the ramming ship. Rigging damage/shock, crew shock, losing boarding prep and leaks were already mentioned. On the other hand it would also inflict serious damage (at least to the hull) on the rammed ship. The change in velocity for the one who gets t-boned may be not as drastic but it is still a tremendous force and momentum that is applied to the hull. And that's the point were the abuse kicks in. I believe we already had that in the past, where cheap npc bought ships were used to ram and sink others. You could take away the heavy damage for the rammed one (in the t-bone case. Head-ons should inflict equal damage). Thus it is in your responsibility to avoid ramming head on into another ship. either don't sail too fast in general or practice your abilities of fast decelerating your ship if your enemy tries to abuse it by deliberately sailing in your way. But that is also kind of artificial.

 

To address the pushing subject. I always wondered if it is really that easy to push another equally sized ship into the wind when you sail alongside and only turn into it. I mean for example tugboats today lineup at certain points of the hull and use their powerful engines to push them around. The vector of the force they apply to the ship is in line with the direction they are going respectively in line with the force which their propulsion puts out. That's not the case for two frigates sailing alongside each other in NA. Does anyone have experience with this? Is it easily possible to push/turn another ship of similar size like we do it in the game.

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I would like to have ramming damage back. Ramming is way to normal in battles now so I strongly believe it is needed and I loved the old leak system up until the point where they started sinking crafted 1. rates with shop bought ships. When accidental friendly rams could be catastrophic for both ships, rams in general where avoided at all cost making battles much more realistic. Taking you enemys bow spirit by ramming was not a valid tactic..  

I like the idea and realism of having leaks as part of the ramming damage, but as long as smaller ships can make leaks on a larger ships it is just to exploitable. If multiple smaller ships where unable to give a larger ships a critical amount of leaks, then I think it could be part of the impact damage between two ships. But as long as this is not possible it should be avoided.

Having mast damage/destruction and rigging shock as result of drastic deceleration from ramming would  would be very cool, but as long as smaller ships have the ability to unrealistically effect the speed deceleration of larger ships I fear this is also to exploitable. 

The way I see it both leak and mast damage need to take into consideration the two masses involved in the collision. I'm not sure if this is possible with the game mechanics in NA. So if devs can not make some idiot proof way of distinguishing the impad small ships should have on large ships and vice versa, then I think the safest is to limit ramming damage to hit point damage and crew shock.  

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3 minutes ago, Tiedemann said:

I would like to have ramming damage back. Ramming is way to normal in battles now so I strongly believe it is needed and I loved the old leak system up until the point where they started sinking crafted 1. rates with shop bought ships. When accidental friendly rams could be catastrophic for both ships, rams in general where avoided at all cost making battles much more realistic. Taking you enemys bow spirit by ramming was not a valid tactic..  

I like the idea and realism of having leaks as part of the ramming damage, but as long as smaller ships can make leaks on a larger ships it is just to exploitable. If multiple smaller ships where unable to give a larger ships a critical amount of leaks, then I think it could be part of the impact damage between two ships. But as long as this is not possible it should be avoided.

Having mast damage/destruction and rigging shock as result of drastic deceleration from ramming would  would be very cool, but as long as smaller ships have the ability to unrealistically effect the speed deceleration of larger ships I fear this is also to exploitable. 

The way I see it both leak and mast damage need to take into consideration the two masses involved in the collision. I'm not sure if this is possible with the game mechanics in NA. So if devs can not make some idiot proof way of distinguishing the impad small ships should have on large ships and vice versa, then I think the safest is to limit ramming damage to hit point damage and crew shock.  

This alone would almost make the Requin not as broken as they couldn't go and ram you into Irons anymore.

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5 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Check whatever vids you want. There's even a freighter crashing into a yacht and upon collision both come to a standstill right away.

I am sorry but I have to call BS on this statement, for a start this would defy the laws of physics.

A large freighter colliding with a yacht would not stop the large ship unless they realized they were about to collide and had their engines going astern and even then it would not be the collision that stopped them. There are many documented cases of large ships taking out small boats in collisions where the larger ship did not even realize they had been involved in a collision, there was one case I remember where the first indication that they had been involved in a collision with a yacht was when they arrived in port and part of the yacht rigging was found hanging off the ships anchor. As part of a ships sea trials stopping distance tests are carried out for inertia stops where the engines are just put to zero and the ship gradually loses speed and a crash stop where the engines are put full astern to bring the vessel to a stop as soon as possible and these are documented on a ships maneuvering characteristic chart displayed in the wheelhouse. Other outside forces can alter these stopping distances but it will never be zero unless the opposing force es equal and opposite.

In response to other comments in this thread, whether a smaller ship can push round a larger ship all depends on how the forces are acting on the vessel being pushed round. A small vessel pushing perpendicularly on the bow of a larger vessel will easily turn it round especially if the vessel is at slow speed as the only thing countering it is the moment of force generated by the rudder of the larger ship. At slow speeds or stopped the turning force generated by the rudder is small or non existent. At higher speeds the force is greater but may still not be greater than the force that the small vessel can apply at the bow it would all be dependent on the resolution of the force vectors. Look at the giant container ships of today and how a small bow thruster can be used to assist maneuvering in port when the vessel is at slow speed, once the speed of the vessel increases the bow thruster becomes ineffective as it cannot counter the increased rudder force.

As has been mentioned by others look at how harbour tugs operate, at times coming alongside much larger vessels and leaning on them to assist maneuvering.  These tugs come alongside and touch other vessels without causing damage to either vessel (well sometimes they get it wrong and cause dents), so a small vessel can come alongside a larger vessel and hug it without sustaining damage. For sailing ships this may be further complicated by masts and rigging becoming entangled.

Dont get me wrong ramming into the side of a larger ship at speed will cause significant damage, but the ability for a small vessel to turn a larger vessel or to lay alongside without damage is possible.

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13 minutes ago, Archaos said:

 These tugs come alongside and touch other vessels without causing damage to either vessel (well sometimes they get it wrong and cause dents), so a small vessel can come alongside a larger vessel and hug it without sustaining damage.

That is because tug boats have some sort of cushion to prevent the metal on metal that would cause said damage.

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24 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I am sorry but I have to call BS on this statement, for a start this would defy the laws of physics.

Just search vids of that before you call BS on the statement :) you'll see several.

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52 minutes ago, Archaos said:

As has been mentioned by others look at how harbour tugs operate, at times coming alongside much larger vessels and leaning on them to assist maneuvering.  These tugs come alongside and touch other vessels without causing damage to either vessel (well sometimes they get it wrong and cause dents), so a small vessel can come alongside a larger vessel and hug it without sustaining damage. For sailing ships this may be further complicated by masts and rigging becoming entangled.

Dont get me wrong ramming into the side of a larger ship at speed will cause significant damage, but the ability for a small vessel to turn a larger vessel or to lay alongside without damage is possible.

Very true, but if the larger vessel is fighting the force of the smaller vessel (and has far more inertia and sail force), it becomes very difficult fo a small vessel to move a large one...yes?

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This argument is pointless.  Ramming damage was already tried and tested and found to be exploitable/unfun.  It was removed. Move on.

Now, if you're talking about the physics, you can calculate it all out with force and momentum calculations if you like, there's nothing magical about it. That said it is exceedingly unlikely that a ship with less mass and/or momentum, especially once under the lee of a larger ship and with the reduced sailforce that implies would be able to overcome the larger ship's momentum to turn it into the wind from the downwind side.  A PIT maneuver, however, from the upwind side would physically be more likely to succeed. 

But all of that discussion is still hopelessly gamey and probably was never even considered in naval engagements because the reason you didn't have ships laying along side or ramming each other very often was because the rigging, stays, and spars would become hopeless entangled and both ships would probably be disabled for a long period of time, regardless of any damage to the hull that the action caused.

You could definitely argue the case that the artificial speed limit on boarding is silly and you should be able to board at relative speeds of less than 3 knots, and I could get behind this.

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Boarding shock = Rigging & Crew shock combined.

Pushing a ship, abeam, at several knots is quite gamey, but how do the tech allows to model it more credible without ramming damage abuse from both ends of the stick ?

It is a design challenge and a coding nightmare.

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57 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Pushing a ship, abeam, at several knots is quite gamey, but how do the tech allows to model it more credible without ramming damage abuse from both ends of the stick ?

It is a design challenge and a coding nightmare.

I don't know how the logic behind the mechanic we had worked, but I do believe it distinguished between big and small ships. It might also have taken into account the speed/angle/severity of the collision! But this is just based on what I remember.. And I'm old :( 
At least a lot of small ships where needed to ram and sink a large ship. While if to large ships rammed each other head on at high speed it was game over for both.
I sank within the 3 first minutes of a pb once, because I was afk and did not put up sail while the teammate behind me was afk, but with sails at 100%. For some annoying reason he did not sink though 🤩

I seriously think they could salvage that old leak mechanic by tweaking it if they had time. By giving larger ship a clear advantage in collisions with smaller ships. But that statment is based on the assumtion that they had some sort of way to distinguish small and large vessels and the severity of the impact.   

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3 hours ago, Radtke said:

That is because tug boats have some sort of cushion to prevent the metal on metal that would cause said damage.

Even metal to metal contact would only cause scraping of the paintwork and only things like protruding and angled edges would likely penetrate and cause damage, hence why they use fendering to prevent it. If it was flat metal plate against flat metal plate there would be no damage.

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3 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Just search vids of that before you call BS on the statement :) you'll see several.

Please provide a link as I would like to see the relative sizes and displacements of such ships and what speeds they were doing prior to the collision. As I said it should not be possible according to the laws of physics unless you are talking about similar size vessels at low speeds where there is not a lot of energy involved. Same as a car hitting a bicycle they do not just stop dead at the point of collision.

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2 hours ago, Oberon74 said:

Very true, but if the larger vessel is fighting the force of the smaller vessel (and has far more inertia and sail force), it becomes very difficult fo a small vessel to move a large one...yes?

It all comes down to the resolution of forces. Sail ships are not as straightforward as motor ships because the driving force is transmitted through the masts which are at various points on the vessel relative to the turning centre making a more complex balance of forces and turning moments which is why under certain sail plans there has to be constant counter rudder applied to counteract the turning forces induced by the sail balance. So in the end it comes down to resultant turning moment on the ship that is being turned.

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16 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Please provide a link as I would like to see the relative sizes and displacements of such ships and what speeds they were doing prior to the collision. As I said it should not be possible according to the laws of physics unless you are talking about similar size vessels at low speeds where there is not a lot of energy involved. Same as a car hitting a bicycle they do not just stop dead at the point of collision.

There's no water pressure hugging the car nor the bicycle.

Iue2b5ARxuo?t=1m49s

Reckon the engines are making their work, but momentum is there, maybe faster than any sail ship. In any case the damage is real. You have several collisions during the regattas in the Sail Channel that you can watch at your heart desire, from every direction imaginable.

We have linear. We crash and push all around because WE can, not becaue that's how it works :)

I accept that it is a game and we must always discuss and suggest improvements so devs can challenge themselves.

Water is the most dense element of nature. The harder it gets pushed, the hard it pushes back.

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15 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

There's no water pressure hugging the car nor the bicycle.

Iue2b5ARxuo?t=1m49s

Reckon the engines are making their work, but momentum is there, maybe faster than any sail ship. In any case the damage is real. You have several collisions during the regattas in the Sail Channel that you can watch at your heart desire, from every direction imaginable.

We have linear. We crash and push all around because WE can, not becaue that's how it works :)

I accept that it is a game and we must always discuss and suggest improvements so devs can challenge themselves.

Water is the most dense element of nature. The harder it gets pushed, the hard it pushes back.

Here is a video of a ship hitting a yacht, note how the speed of the ship does not even slow down a fraction during the collision.

 

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That's what happens when a Santi hits a Lynx.

Not when a bellona hits a bellona and keeps pushing it at 5 knots :) 

Or a Xebec ( cruiser sisze ) hits another frigate.

Especially when they crash abeam... 

snappy salute :) 

 

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