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Speed meta is silly and has always been silly. Why is it silly you might ask? Well imagine for a second a speed capped frigate. This ship is uncapturable downwind. You can only match it's speed, not exceed it. This is a very serious problem. Ships are being built to reach the speed cap which is game breaking. They can attack at will, and run when challenged. What does this mean? A skilled player will never lose. 

So my suggestion, looking forward we'll soon (soon) no longer have extreme mod stacking, beyond that who knows what kind of balance will take place (already talks of buffing all 6th rates, we know where that ladder goes)

Assuming ships become more similar in speed, the biggest factor likely being ship wood type affecting speed. What does that mean for combat? Well it will be harder to get away, less difference in speed, less distance you can cover over time. How do we reconcile the ability to disengage from combat in a balanced way?

You throw everything overboard, obviously.
As a last ditch effort, you throw your cannons off the ship, you gain speed and you can get away. You lose the cannons, but keep the ship if all goes well.
You may ask, why do we need this? Well why do some players insist on 14.5+knt ships for PVP? Everyone want's the ability to disengage from unfavorable odds, no one wants to lose their ship to a group of 10.

Once mod harmonization update comes through, It's very likely that ship speeds will be lessened across the board. This is good, speed meta is cancer; but gank meta is just as bad. This is a fair, balanced way to retain the benefit we seek from speedy ships, but without the cheese that you get from people sailing around at the physical speed limit all the time.

little details:
simple keypress/confirm to activate
not all cannons tossed at once, two at a time, should take a few minutes.
speed increases as weight drops.
(optional)
visual of cannons dropping from the ship to alert the enemy
alternatively a status on scoreboard (surrender, sank, captured)
strike a flag to show you've routed, as to alert friendlies.

that's it, thanks for reading.
 


 

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...I'd rather there not be a speed cap and instead just nerf the hell out of all speed mods and Nerf all base speeds on every ship.

Also, I find a number of people regularly PvPing in ships that aren't speed capped, or speedy...they are looking for a fight. The only reason I have seen folks go for a speed build is still stay away from ganks.

simple thing (except for the Requin) a speed ship cannot go toe-to-toe with a non-speed ship IF both players are of similar experience.

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34 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

...I'd rather there not be a speed cap and instead just nerf the hell out of all speed mods and Nerf all base speeds on every ship.

Also, I find a number of people regularly PvPing in ships that aren't speed capped, or speedy...they are looking for a fight. The only reason I have seen folks go for a speed build is still stay away from ganks.

simple thing (except for the Requin) a speed ship cannot go toe-to-toe with a non-speed ship IF both players are of similar experience.

Max achievable speed should be somewhere around 14.5 knts for the fastest and lightest of ships. There should be no need for a speed cap in a well balanced setup.
Speed is king, if you have speed you dictate the terms of the fight always unless you get caught ashore. It's been clearly shown that too much speed is bad, because players won't be looking for a fight, they'll be looking to pick off easy targets while not being caught.

It breeds bad gameplay, I attack you but you're 3 knots faster than me in the same ship. You will always run and not have to fight. A disservice to both sides, neither are getting good content.


 

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Speed ships are far less relevant today than they use to be. Speed ships are for the solo pvper who doesn't want to get ganked. Occasionally a gank squad of speed ships is ok too.

It takes a huge investment to make a ship go 15knts and its not worth it.

Endymions that go 13.5knts are considered fast in this day and age.

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21 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Max achievable speed should be somewhere around 14.5 knts for the fastest and lightest of ships. There should be no need for a speed cap in a well balanced setup.
Speed is king, if you have speed you dictate the terms of the fight always unless you get caught ashore. It's been clearly shown that too much speed is bad, because players won't be looking for a fight, they'll be looking to pick off easy targets while not being caught.

It breeds bad gameplay, I attack you but you're 3 knots faster than me in the same ship. You will always run and not have to fight. A disservice to both sides, neither are getting good content.


 

The issue of speed is I think quite complex, different classes of ship type often had significant differences in speed, hull-form, sail plan and rig all made a difference. Even within a class of ships there would be a fast one, a slow one and the rest would fall somewhere between those, the difference may only be measured in 10th's of a knot, if that, but that difference can still be life or death. Many Captains would adjust a ships rig on taking command, his experience would be different from the previous commander and he may know his preferred rig produces a fraction of a knot more than his predecessor. Even today no two warships in a class share identical properties, there will be a fast one a slow one, one that turns slightly faster or slower, they all have individual characters if you like.

It is, I think, vital that the ship you use for a given role be actually capable of fulfilling that role, Line ships do not need speed, they do need armour and brute force, small ships demand speed sacrificing armour and brute force for maneuverability, it is true that commerce raiders relied on speed  to catch traders and evade frigates, it is also true that hybrids like the later Battlecruiser concept which sacrificed armour, yet, retained the firepower of line ships were of mixed value, they were meant to out run anything that could sink them and sink anything that could out run a line ship, it was, in part, the misuse of their role that caused the loss of so many of them at Jutland and of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait. The same holds true in game if your ship cannot fulfill the role it is designed for it will very likely fail, if you fight a battle it is not designed to fight it will very likely fail.

Yes speed is vital in ships that need speed, Armour and brute force is vital in ships that are expected to fight toe to toe, did some ships have both? Yes, but they had to live with the facts, if they met a slower equally powerful ship it was very likely run or die, if they met ships of equal speed they would very likely win, unless they are unfortunate enough to run into greater numbers.

Of course the day may come when you meet a lesser ship commanded by a more experienced Captain, (or a Captain who will stand and fight even knowing the outcome), and i am sure everyone has been there, where his skill, experience and knowledge made the difference between success and failure, or, more rarely, a less experienced Captain who stands and fights to stalemate, or is lucky enough to actually win, such can be the fortunes of war.

 

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46 minutes ago, Sir Lancelot Holland said:

The issue of speed is I think quite complex, different classes of ship type often had significant differences in speed, hull-form, sail plan and rig all made a difference. Even within a class of ships there would be a fast one, a slow one and the rest would fall somewhere between those, the difference may only be measured in 10th's of a knot, if that, but that difference can still be life or death. Many Captains would adjust a ships rig on taking command, his experience would be different from the previous commander and he may know his preferred rig produces a fraction of a knot more than his predecessor. Even today no two warships in a class share identical properties, there will be a fast one a slow one, one that turns slightly faster or slower, they all have individual characters if you like.

It is, I think, vital that the ship you use for a given role be actually capable of fulfilling that role, Line ships do not need speed, they do need armour and brute force, small ships demand speed sacrificing armour and brute force for maneuverability, it is true that commerce raiders relied on speed  to catch traders and evade frigates, it is also true that hybrids like the later Battlecruiser concept which sacrificed armour, yet, retained the firepower of line ships were of mixed value, they were meant to out run anything that could sink them and sink anything that could out run a line ship, it was, in part, the misuse of their role that caused the loss of so many of them at Jutland and of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait. The same holds true in game if your ship cannot fulfill the role it is designed for it will very likely fail, if you fight a battle it is not designed to fight it will very likely fail.

Yes speed is vital in ships that need speed, Armour and brute force is vital in ships that are expected to fight toe to toe, did some ships have both? Yes, but they had to live with the facts, if they met a slower equally powerful ship it was very likely run or die, if they met ships of equal speed they would very likely win, unless they are unfortunate enough to run into greater numbers.

Of course the day may come when you meet a lesser ship commanded by a more experienced Captain, (or a Captain who will stand and fight even knowing the outcome), and i am sure everyone has been there, where his skill, experience and knowledge made the difference between success and failure, or, more rarely, a less experienced Captain who stands and fights to stalemate, or is lucky enough to actually win, such can be the fortunes of war.

 

That's a good point. .1 knt in game is negligible but IRL over many hours or days of chase could be a definitive advantage. Likewise a smaller ship didn't always equal faster or a larger ship more armored. In real life a larger ship sails better than a smaller ship with risk of damage to the rigging from high winds, so it wasn't always so cut and dry that raw speed was king, there were many factors at play.

For game purposes it's a natural tendency to assume that 5th rate would be faster than a 3rd rate. In real life this wasn't always the case, but in the current state of the game I think it should be. For what other reason would anybody sail a 5th rate if not for it being faster and more agile? Maneuverability is more than just turn rate, it's the ability to position which includes speed which without good positioning a 5th rate will lose to a larger ship, especially in groups.

So say we did a basic pass on speeds for all ship's base speeds, going something like

7th rate: 14.5knts

6th rate: 14knts

5th rate: 13knts

4th rate: 12.5knts

3rd rate: 12 knts

2nd rate: 11.5knts 

1st rate 11knts

 

Keep in mind, these are base speeds give or take a knot for ship types woods and mods.
Is this historically accurate? No. Is it balanced? I say yes. Why? Because no ship of the same type will be more than 2 knts faster than it's counterpart. A larger class ship can be faster, but not by much. Small ships are the only thing close to reaching 15knts, because they're like flies.

Where my problem comes from is that I can take a bellona, make it FIR/FIR, stack speed mods and sail force mods, get it to 15knts and still have more health and firepower than a frigate, making actually frigates irrelevant. I understand people want to get away from ganks in any ship, fair enough. That's where my suggestion comes in.

 

 

Edited by Slim McSauce
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16 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

That's a good point. .1 knt in game is negligible but IRL over many hours or days of chase could be a definitive advantage. Likewise a smaller ship didn't always equal faster or a larger ship more armored. In real life a larger ship sails better than a smaller ship with risk of damage to the rigging from high winds, so it wasn't always so cut and dry that raw speed was king, there were many factors at play.

For game purposes it's a natural tendency to assume that 5th rate would be faster than a 3rd rate. In real life this wasn't always the case, but in the current state of the game I think it should be. For what other reason would anybody sail a 5th rate if not for it being faster and more agile? Maneuverability is more than just turn rate, it's the ability to position which includes speed which without good positioning a 5th rate will lose to a larger ship, especially in groups.

So say we did a basic pass on speeds for all ship's base speeds, going something like

7th rate: 14.5knts

6th rate: 14knts

5th rate: 13knts

4th rate: 12.5knts

3rd rate: 12 knts

2nd rate: 11.5knts 

1st rate 11knts

 

Keep in mind, these are base speeds give or take a knot for ship types woods and mods.
Is this historically accurate? No. Is it balanced? I say yes. Why? Because no ship of the same type will be more than 2 knts faster than it's counterpart. A larger class ship can be faster, but not by much. Small ships are the only thing close to reaching 15knts, because they're like flies.

Where my problem comes from is that I can take a bellona, make it FIR/FIR, stack speed mods and sail force mods, get it to 15knts and still have more health and firepower than a frigate, making actually frigates irrelevant. I understand people want to get away from ganks in any ship, fair enough. That's where my suggestion comes in.

 

 

in game I think that the limitation of speed should be to what that type, or class within type were physically capable of, raising or lowering  speed constraints 'across the board' achieves nothing of significant value. Minor variations of speed within class were the norm, indeed even the different classes within a ships rate had minor speed variations. The illustration you provide looks reasonable, and if battle damage is taken into account, in theory a fir/fir Bellona may not be capable of reaching her maximum speed, or maintain that speed, and may even be slower than her Oak/Oak counterpart given damage and even reps carried at the time, and, of course assuming the more sturdy ship will have suffered less damage, at least hull wise, although that may not always be the case.

The point you make regarding Fir/Fir Bellona's is no different to to the debates between Admirals Beatty and Fisher regarding the Battlecruiser concept, which was basically a speed v armour debate, it was also felt in some quarters that the Battlecruiser would render the Cruiser obsolete just as HMS Dreadnought rendered the Battleships of her generation obsolete. So in truth your point about rendering Frigates obsolete actually mirrors real life thinking in a later century. Further, the Torpedo Boat Destroyers of the same era reinforces that point, and of course the they became the Destroyer of escort and anti submarine warfare fame, and, at no time did they threaten the Frigates and Corvettes of convoy escort fame, but, they did compliment them. It was their speed that made Destroyers the natural escort for battle groups where Frigates and Corvettes escorted convoys for the most part.  In reality the Battlecruiser never replaced Cruisers either, the concept failed due to misuse and bad cordite handling procedures. 

I do not think we need speed mods, the sail-force mods alone provide significant difference in performance in the same way that a Captain would fine tune the the rig of his new command to his preference. Such a system may even make the Captain's skill sets more important than the artificial 'turbo charging' of speed mods, it is of course theory, but, it is in battle where theory becomes fact or fiction.

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3 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

So say we did a basic pass on speeds for all ship's base speeds, going something like

7th rate: 14.5knts

6th rate: 14knts

5th rate: 13knts

4th rate: 12.5knts

3rd rate: 12 knts

2nd rate: 11.5knts 

1st rate 11knts

This is my way of thinking. And yes I think it is realistic at some point. Let's check the real maximum speeds of each class, there will be difference, hull shape, size etc. would matter a lot.

We need speed caps for each rate, provided sail refits gets hard nerf, speed mods nerfed. So in order to achieve hard caps on your specific rate of ship, you have to invest all in speed, sacrifising fighting capability. Also I find only 2 full loads of chain to be encouraging speed meta, feel like it must be 3 or 4 sets, cause any speed moded ship can carry 3-4 sets of repair easily.

Speed Caps for Each Rate, achievable with many speed mods:

Lineships 1st and 2nd rate 12.5 knts

3rd rate 13.5 knts

4th rate 14 knts

5th rate 14.5 knts

6th and 7th 15 knts

All ships will find a role, in PB or OW PVP. You can not gank in speed capped 3rd rate anymore, you should be ready to fight, refitted for battle, not all the way running.

Where is Renomee, cerberus and some other forgatten ships ? They need to be taken into PVP gameplay.

And I really find mods like copper plating and similiar to be really unbalanced, they should not be that rare, should not cost more than a ship :)

Edited by AeRoTR
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I wonder if the answer lies not in making larger ships slower than smaller ships, but in trying to simulate the increase in cost of operations. Yes, I know that there is a lot of gold in players hands, but it’s not spread evenly and if a significant money sink to sail the biggest ships existed, perhaps our fleets would become more task oriented. US aircraft carriers are among the fastest and undoubtedly the most powerful warships afloat but they are not used for every mission. That costs too much.

Of course this suggestion is useless as long as the answer to every sailing decision is our little frankenships Requin and Hercules. 

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