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Lost a Victory two two small ships recently, the players concerned achieved this victory by basically "Hugging" my ship so that my guns would not bear. I have no complaints about the players, they skillfully exploited a game loophole and I have no problem with them, in all honesty they were better PVP players  than me. What I do object to, however, is the fact that that the game's combat mechanics allowed this tactic to succeed. Naval Action claims to be a "realistic, and beautifully detailed naval combat game" and beautiful it certainly is but would this tactic have worked in reality? No chance. A small ship alongside would have been subjected to withering musket and swivel gun fire from the larger vessel, not to mention grenades (grenadoes in those days) being lobbed down. In reality the life expectancy of anyone on the attacker's exposed deck would probably have been measured in seconds. The first to die would have been the officers on the quarterdeck and the helmsmen, followed by just about anyone else. You may say (probably correctly) that I should have stopped and boarded, or turned into the wind and gone astern, etc, etc, for failing to attempt these tactics I blame too much beer. However I still maintain that this tactic is grossly unrealistic. From the moment the small vessel makes contact, their crew numbers should start to decrement maybe by one a second if not more. Their ability to control their vessel should progressively deteriorate do to loss of officers, helmsmen and sail handlers. In short, "Hugging" is basically an exploit (or bug if you prefer) and as such the game's combat mechanics should be adjusted to prevent it. I would be interested to hear what the devs have to say on this topic. 

 

 

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I wonder why you didnt just stop your ship and board them with you 300% more crew if they continued to stick to you. Or turn them into the wind with your stronger sails.

 

Dont sail first rates if you cant deal with someone getting under your guns.

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Still his point is valid. 

Many players sailing in big ships fear more frigates (or even smaller ships) because of this tactic.

Also take in mind that boarding a smaller vessel means that another one can easily stern rake with grape while your ship is inmovilized.

Edited by Intrepido
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tbh nobody can turn a xebec into the wind when it has pirate rig refit.

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17 minutes ago, z4ys said:

tbh nobody can turn a xebec into the wind when it has pirate rig refit.

You can get it off of you long enough to get a shot at it.

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15 minutes ago, z4ys said:

tbh nobody can turn a xebec into the wind when it has pirate rig refit.

But if it goes faster, it means it was shaken off from hugging. If not, it gets boarded. It's funny how people using 1st rates complain about small ships that can literally die from ONE broadside. The 1st rate will never die from a single broadside, it usually takes 30 minutes, sometimes a full 1:30h fight. @admin once posted a painting of a smaller ship hugging bigger ship, so the bigger vessel couldn't hit it. It's a valid tactic that was used in Age of Sail. 

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They should allow the crew on 1st rates to simply drop cannonballs onto the smaller vessel and sink it that way.

Seriously though it might have happened in history at some point or another and under very specific conditions, this game is far removed from reality anyway with the pushing, hugging, turning your bow/stern toward the enemy to glance shots etc etc. There is nothing realistic about this combat.

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5 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

But if it goes faster, it means it was shaken off from hugging. If not, it gets boarded. It's funny how people using 1st rates complain about small ships that can literally die from ONE broadside. The 1st rate will never die from a single broadside, it usually takes 30 minutes, sometimes a full 1:30h fight. @admin once posted a painting of a smaller ship hugging bigger ship, so the bigger vessel couldn't hit it. It's a valid tactic that was used in Age of Sail. 

I completely agree on that.

I just wanted to point out that the xebec sailforce is over the top especially with force mods. I could push my way through an anchored lgv and indiaman  while they were rubbing each other sides. I still did over 8kn while pushing both (straight downwind in a xebec with elite refit). In my opinion that shouldnt be possible. Shame i havent recorded it.

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1 hour ago, Arngill said:

Lost a Victory two two small ships recently, the players concerned achieved this victory by basically "Hugging" my ship so that my guns would not bear. I have no complaints about the players, they skillfully exploited a game loophole and I have no problem with them, in all honesty they were better PVP players  than me. What I do object to, however, is the fact that that the game's combat mechanics allowed this tactic to succeed. Naval Action claims to be a "realistic, and beautifully detailed naval combat game" and beautiful it certainly is but would this tactic have worked in reality? No chance. A small ship alongside would have been subjected to withering musket and swivel gun fire from the larger vessel, not to mention grenades (grenadoes in those days) being lobbed down. In reality the life expectancy of anyone on the attacker's exposed deck would probably have been measured in seconds. The first to die would have been the officers on the quarterdeck and the helmsmen, followed by just about anyone else. You may say (probably correctly) that I should have stopped and boarded, or turned into the wind and gone astern, etc, etc, for failing to attempt these tactics I blame too much beer. However I still maintain that this tactic is grossly unrealistic. From the moment the small vessel makes contact, their crew numbers should start to decrement maybe by one a second if not more. Their ability to control their vessel should progressively deteriorate do to loss of officers, helmsmen and sail handlers. In short, "Hugging" is basically an exploit (or bug if you prefer) and as such the game's combat mechanics should be adjusted to prevent it. I would be interested to hear what the devs have to say on this topic. 

 

 

Remember that the realism card in this game works only when devs want to.

This means that you may even be historically right, but your suggestion will not be listened to simply because the veteran OS PVPers would uproar if they would no longer be allowed to ruin the day of a shiny 1st rate in a pair of cheap snows.

Edited by victor
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Do not sail 1st rates, if u have a chance to lose it. You should be easly boarding them.

However a 1st rate has hundreds of musketeers, which should be killing crew of single deck ships hugging them. Which unfortunatly not implemented into the game. 

Approching graple distance, muskets should be firing if prepared. 

 

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The secret is out anyway, hugging > your first rate. There was a video of 2 basic cutters hugging a pavel and actually managing to sink it.  It might have taken them an hour but they did it, and sure there are steps you can take to try and avoid it but the whole thing is just hilarious.

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48 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

Do not sail 1st rates, if u have a chance to lose it. You should be easly boarding them.

However a 1st rate has hundreds of musketeers, which should be killing crew of single deck ships hugging them. Which unfortunatly not implemented into the game. 

Approching graple distance, muskets should be firing if prepared. 

 

I agree, if the ship has marines, marines should be able to fire muskets against targets thats withing 100m, but then again i guess the problem is the load on the servers handling 50 1st rates with possible 1200 crew each.

Edited by Wyy

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This is not an exploit, it can be discussed as combat mechanic suggestion though

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9 minutes ago, Ink said:

This is not an exploit, it can be discussed as combat mechanic suggestion though

It's been brought up several times and even @admin let us know you have a feature that would prevent this, simulated musket/crew fire within close range and we have said we are willing to test it.  So why haven't we tested this yet?

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9 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

It's been brought up several times and even @admin let us know you have a feature that would prevent this, simulated musket/crew fire within close range and we have said we are willing to test it.  So why haven't we tested this yet?

It was in the game and was removed. 

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We all know in reality Musket fire from the big ship firing downwards would see off smaller ships that got along side.

To implement that though would be a passive skill and the devs don't like passive skills because its too much of a field leveller.

 

 

 

 

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Come on we have ultimate passive  perk "determined defender" 

So both DD and muskets should work when above some preparation. 

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8 minutes ago, Fletch67 said:

We all know in reality Musket fire from the big ship firing downwards would see off smaller ships that got along side.

To implement that though would be a passive skill and the devs don't like passive skills because its too much of a field leveller.

 

 

 

 

well this behavior is also a field leveler , from the exploit.

so devs have to make a choice   

to put in a counter >> determent gunner 

 lol

 

 

Edited by Thonys

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It’s not an exploit, it’s a tactic. You should not have let a small ship get that close to you. One broadside can cripple them. Either into the hull, masts, or sails. 

Also as mentioned, you can stop, reverse, do fancy maneuvers, etc. to try to shake them once they’ve gotten that close. 

Ultimately, a first rate—even alone—in the hands of a competent skipper is going to be a nearly impossible target for smaller ships unless they come in overwhelming numbers. Poorly handled though, and it is one of the most vulnerable targets imaginable.

Furthermore, this is not limited to only 1st rates and small ships, frigates can easily do the same thing. Not long ago, I was sailing a 4th rate and one of the “pros” in Prussia thought he was doing great against the standard variety of noob when his Endy could hug my side and took me to 25% HP. I think I surprised him when I managed to time a tack just right and then throw it in reverse. He sailed right past me, I shot away his foremast and then he wasn’t an issue for a while in that fight. 

I do agree, however, that steady musket and swivel fire when at close range should be a thing, for all ships, but proportionallly stronger when coming from a larger ship down into a smaller ship. We’ll see if something like that ever makes it into the game...

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2 minutes ago, William Death said:

It’s not an exploit, it’s a tactic. You should not have let a small ship get that close to you. One broadside can cripple them. Either into the hull, masts, or sails. 

Also as mentioned, you can stop, reverse, do fancy maneuvers, etc. to try to shake them once they’ve gotten that close. 

Ultimately, a first rate—even alone—in the hands of a competent skipper is going to be a nearly impossible target for smaller ships unless they come in overwhelming numbers. Poorly handled though, and it is one of the most vulnerable targets imaginable.

Furthermore, this is not limited to only 1st rates and small ships, frigates can easily do the same thing. Not long ago, I was sailing a 4th rate and one of the “pros” in Prussia thought he was doing great against the standard variety of noob when his Endy could hug my side and took me to 25% HP. I think I surprised him when I managed to time a tack just right and then throw it in reverse. He sailed right past me, I shot away his foremast and then he wasn’t an issue for a while in that fight. 

I do agree, however, that steady musket and swivel fire when at close range should be a thing, for all ships, but proportionallly stronger when coming from a larger ship down into a smaller ship. We’ll see if something like that ever makes it into the game...

of course not..... it is not an exploit.....

its a picnic by the gunners and marines on the big ship 

let's say a barbeque in the afternoon

disobedience by the captain crew  whose ship is getting wrecked 

 

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2 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

But if it goes faster, it means it was shaken off from hugging. If not, it gets boarded. It's funny how people using 1st rates complain about small ships that can literally die from ONE broadside. The 1st rate will never die from a single broadside, it usually takes 30 minutes, sometimes a full 1:30h fight. @admin once posted a painting of a smaller ship hugging bigger ship, so the bigger vessel couldn't hit it. It's a valid tactic that was used in Age of Sail. 

Paintings.........those are like photographs, only made up right? :P

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Funny what Beer can make us do or lack there of! Yes i agree with realistically the higher tier ship would use musket, swivel or removing front wheels on the battery to gain greater angle etc to fend off smaller vessels from having real impacts on them, this game lacks realistic and proper mechanics, its fabricated to an extent to gain the desired traits and new ships etc never have the proper balance before being implemented, Herc and Xebec being DLC ships were more then likely purposely made stronger and over balanced to get more people spending money on broken development strategies.

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2 hours ago, Ink said:

This is not an exploit, it can be discussed as combat mechanic suggestion though

First of all whoever rated this post with 1 star should be shot multiple timers.

It is an empty spot that needs to be filled. Marines could simply come to the deck sides and shoot the attacker from higher ground inside tiny boats. Bastards would have no chance to survive. In addition they could throw granadoes on the attacker deck causing devastating damage to crew. So, here we are thinking how to pug this hole. 

What can be done?

@admin  @Ink ALL NUMBERS ARE MADE UP FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSES

-Add a button for such close encounters. If ship is touching other ships hull or in close proximity(0-10m) then a button (Musket Fire) should highlight. Musket fire is a close range crew killer with a realistic timer (25 seconds reload). Musket fire damage and accuracy is increased if Marines are installed. 

-Damage only caused to top deck (open deck). Crew damage limit must be set. 

-Using musket fire will put timer on Grape.

-Attacker can use brace to reduce crew damage, trigger reload penalty for both guns and muskets. 

-The taller the ship( higher ground) the more crew damage it can cause to a much smaller vessel who is camping the hull. 

-This can also provide slight defense against boarding. When de crewed and demased. (Last stand). Fire whatever you got before you are boarded. 

-Allows new perks. Granadoes, Stinky pots and smoke that could increase crew kill efficiency. 

Example - Tiny boat touching Huge boat hull or in close proximity (1st rate) 

Tiny boat starting musket damage % = 0.01

Huge ship starting musket damage % = 0.1 (higher hulls, better kill rate)

In this case tiny boat can use (Musket fire) , but it will be ineffective due to upright fire. 

1st rate has much better kill rate due to a much higher ground and crew number. 

It simply means 1st rate is killing crew much faster compared to a tiny boat, but only on top deck(open deck). In our case tiny boat has only one open deck and will suffer a massive crew damage. 

Crew numbers

Every 100 sailors adds +.005 to Musket kill rate.

So,

L,Ocean 1100 crew (+.055) + Huge ship (+.1) = +.155 crew damage when touching hull/ close proximity.

Niagara - 155 crew (+.005) + Small ship (.01) = +.015 crew damage when touching hull/ close proximity. 

Ship Size and Musket Damage Chart - %(musket damage when touching hull or close proximity)

-Tiny - %

-Small - %%

-Medium - %%%

-Large - %%%%

-Huge - %%%%%

-------------------------------

*Damage must only be limited to open decks. ex. 2 decker will only loose people who are on top deck vs most of the crew on open brig or Niagara. This is designed to cause significant damage to small boats who are camping too close. Musket fire is disabled when ship takes range. 

Ask this guy how well it works when you shoot scum from the higher ground. 

B9IIdnTCMAEivwx.jpg

Edited by Wind
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1 minute ago, Wind said:

It is an empty spot that needs to be filled. Marines could simply come to the deck sides and shoot the attacker from higher ground inside tiny boats. Bastards would have no chance to survive. In addition they could throw granadoes in the attacker deck causing devastating damage to crew. So, here we are thinking how to pug this hole. 

What can be done?

-Add a button for such close encounters. If ship is touching other ships hull then a button (Musket Fire) should highlight. Musket fire is a close range crew killer with a realistic timer. Musket fire damage and accuracy is increased if Marines are installed. 

-The taller the ship( higher ground) the more crew damage it can cause to a much smaller vessel who is camping the hull. 

-This can also provide slight defense against boarding. 

Sounds good to me

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The question we really have to ask is that from a game play standpoint do we really want mechanics that supports the "Bigger Ship Always Win," creep that some people seem be clamoring for in this thread?  I don't want to see that, and I doubt that the OP would have the same outcome if they fought the battle all over again. Why? Because he learned something.

I'd say leave the balance as it is. Right now, Bellonas are the new PvP meta as they probably should be.. First rates are vulnerable when sailing alone which reduces 1st Rate Creep somewhat, and this isn't a mechanic that is employed by experienced players vs. other experienced players except in rare occasions.

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