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Old Crusty

PvP marks and the seals

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Pvp marks are the best part of this game. Pvp needs to have a reward and now it does. Just like PBs have VMs which make pbs worth showing up for.

If all rewards were achievable with just raw pve grinding then there wouldnt be much reason to roam around pvping and there would be no need to rvr either.

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I think the idea of pvp reward being based on the difference in levels between the two captains has some merit.

I think now that some lower rank players probably don't engage in pvp because you have no way of knowing what you are going to be up against until it's already too late. All you would have to do it add the rank to the ship info, so a click on a ship would reveal ENEMY REAR ADMIRAL or ENEMY COMMODORE, etc.

If you took on someone of your own rank you'de get the pvp reward as now, less if you took on a lower rank and more if you took on a higher rank.

People will say you can exploit this with alts, but if it's an alt you already know what the rank is, so you could already do it and if the system was so no-one could hide behind the excuse of not knowing the rank of a player if they are engaged in seal clubbing.

 

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1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

I understand. You present a element of "gaming the game" and not of mechanics in place as they are intended.

That wasn't me who presented that. I was simply going off what admin said. You must mistake me for someone significantly more crafty than I am, I'm assuming you know how pvp marks work so I left out the fact that they can taken and held safely immediately and redeeming in any friendly port. Albeit that's likely to change with the economy update, 15 marks is still usually more valuable as a commodity than single frigate. That's a fact and a clear reason why people want/need marks to continue playing. Instead of capturing the ships they fight they're sinking them to create new ones out of thin air.

If you can't afford the same benefit to newbies as you do the veterans who routinely slaughter them then it's a flawed system. One side is getting nothing and therefore unable to continue while the other is making extreme bank and is sitting on a huge surplus which all snowballs.

PVP marks where always an effect of problems in the economy and crafting being tedious and time consuming. People wanted a ship and there wasn't always one on market to buy, or you didn't make enough gold from PVP alone. It's good now because ships are virtually free and you don't need crafting or economy so much. Too bad with that you'll never have good economy that way and I'll make the bet that's the result we'll see from DLC redeemables, but I would be glad to be wrong if that isn't the case with the Economy/UI/Mod balance update.

Edited by Slim McSauce
  • Like 5

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6 hours ago, admin said:

Patrols already give this safety pill somewhat. You get rewarded if you do damage and dont need to win. 
If we do this in battle - then it will breed a lot of exploits that are impossible to close. 

But patrols are empty content in the context of the game world, as they are meaningless to both RvR and crafting (since DLC ships are basically all anyone will risk, sailed with storeboight mediums and rarely repairs). Besides, splitting PvP marks and rewarding the loser doesn’t actually generate any exploitable mechanic which isn’t currently in the game already? The worst that could happen is that players would buy storebought ships and go out and sink them with an alt for PvP marks... which already happens... a lot.

To get full marks you sunk the ship. If someone is sinking an alt or a buddy all the proposed solution would do is make it so the same number of PvP marks are distributed to different characters. The ship and gold to buy it are still gone. This encourages people to get out and hunt, to risk an OW engagement they might lose, etc.

Now, I don’t know how all of this would interact with the new economy and crafting since we haven’t seen specific details on the conversion rates, minting, etc. But I suspect it still would be a good motivator to get more risk averse people to engage in PvP.

6 hours ago, admin said:

Remember how it all started? You could attack anyone, you could turn a pirate, you could enter everyone battle or port battle, you could announce your intentions and start PB by placing a flag. It all went down the drain because not all use features the way they were intended in good faith. 

I do remember and I think that the game is both better and worse since then, for multiple reasons. But one thing we’ve learned is that you can’t force people to play one way without alienating other players, and then they leave. In my opinion we want more and more content that provides players with the incentive and tools to create “content” themselves, through a dynamic economy, fun and more fairly rewarded PvP, regardless of whether it’s a gank or not, and many more opportunities to make clan vs. clan and RvR fun and not a grind.

Give them the tools and the players will figure out a way to make it great. :) 

Edited by Wraith
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14 minutes ago, Wraith said:

But one thing we’ve learned is that you can’t force people to play one way without alienating other players, and then they leave. In my opinion we want more and more content that provides players with the incentive and tools to create “content” themselves, through a dynamic economy, fun and more fairly rewarded PvP, regardless of whether it’s a gank or not, and many more opportunities to make clan vs. clan and RvR fun and not a grind.

Give them the tools and the players will figure out a way to make it great. :) 

 

This, mate. This!

Until the mindset will be to "force" people to do this and that instead of giving them rewards and incentives for doing the same things, I fear that the game will not go very far from where it is right now.

But the problem is that - in order to use "carrots" - you need to create new good content (then you need to have fresh money to put in the development) while just using the "stick" seems much easy and cheaper ... and this is the deadlock where we are trapped in right now: not enough resources to create carrots, a raging community of grumpy veterans that makes very difficult the recovery of fresh money with DLCs and advocates for "moar hardcore", and - last but not least - the crowd of average and casuals players that quit the game when they are beaten too much with the hardcore stick.

Edited by victor
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1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:

PVP marks where always an effect of problems in the economy and crafting being tedious and time consuming. People wanted a ship and there wasn't always one on market to buy, or you didn't make enough gold from PVP alone. It's good now because ships are virtually free and you don't need crafting or economy so much. Too bad with that you'll never have good economy that way and I'll make the bet that's the result we'll see from DLC redeemables, but I would be glad to be wrong if that isn't the case with the Economy/UI/Mod balance update.

I agree but some of the stuff that some folks consider tedious catches the interest of those playing the Econ side of game.  Which is how you have markets providing ships (and whatever else) in meaningful quantities at reasonable prices.  I actually found a niche to do this in the Charleston market until recently.  At present I am waiting for whatever adjustments may be coming with the reworks.

A functioning economy is a long-term proposition that requires a reasonably level playing field for all the participants.  You think in terms of weeks, instead of the next battle, and turning small investments into large operations over time.  And in order for this sort of economy to work you need to have a lot of players operating that way.  I haven't met many.

This is a different type of game from moving automatically dropped trade goods from one point to another that automatically consumes it for short-term profit.  Which is fine.  Some people are perfectly happy doing that and it keeps more targets in the game for you PvP folks.  And the crafting part might be fine if you got rid of the player markets and everything came from drops like that.

But that's not what held my attention when I started playing.

Edited by Marcus Corvus

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6 hours ago, admin said:

Patrols already give this safety pill somewhat. You get rewarded if you do damage and dont need to win. 
If we do this in battle - then it will breed a lot of exploits that are impossible to close. 

Remember how it all started? You could attack anyone, you could turn a pirate, you could enter everyone battle or port battle, you could announce your intentions and start PB by placing a flag. It all went down the drain because not all use features the way they were intended in good faith. 

Currently friends in different  nations take turns sinking each other’s DLC Hercules gaining PvP marks each day and not really losing a ship because they get it back the next day. You are worried about me exploiting the system?

   Right now a French, Prussian, or Pirate player will log into their second account and watch popular ports until they see an easy target and message their buddies that are waiting for the easy prey so they can swoop in and kill them. You are worried about me exploiting the PvP mark system?

   Currently someone can have a Le Renquin with over 300 crew and faster than the wind. They go to enemy ports, easily outrun anybody that tries to get to them until they get bored of chasing them and go do something else. Then the Le Renquin is free to find easy soft targets and farm PvP marks. You are worried about me exploiting the system? Really?

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21 hours ago, victor said:

Until the mindset will be to "force" people to do this and that instead of giving them rewards and incentives for doing the same things, I fear that the game will not go very far from where it is right now.

+1 I think the game is in a much better state than it was a year ago when everybody was calling out to punish new players into PVP by all means. Now that we have returned to a game that gives out more rewards and allows and accommodates a greater variety of play-styles there's a lot more interesting things happening.

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2 hours ago, BallsOfSteel said:

Stop pvp marks for sinking smaller br ships

I dont agree, but if you want to do that I want double PvP marks for sinking higher br ships

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8 hours ago, BallsOfSteel said:

Stop pvp marks for sinking smaller br ships

 

5 hours ago, Johnny Rotten said:

I dont agree, but if you want to do that I want double PvP marks for sinking higher br ships

Somewhere in the middle of this might be something good....

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