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Sunleader

My reasons why this Game will never Succeed....

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19 hours ago, BuckleUpBones said:

I’ve only played a few hours but there’s real potential in the battle gameplay,  if they dolly-up the port UI, get rid of the shop contract system, and like everyone has mention give new players (losers) a fair go, move the game from alpha to beta soon (advertisement), then the game will have a good future, me thinks.   

 

 

The Last Point is the Critical thing.

There is no real Protection left. Thanks to the Update you can now even Gank Players in the Capital Reinforcement Zones.

So New Players come in. Get Raped and then leave saying yeah Screw you, I am out. Leaving a Negative Review making a Negative Review and if Possible Return the Game.

But a Fair Go is Impossible right now. The Entire Game System is laid out so that you are absolutely useless in a Fight unless you already got High Grade Ships to Farm for Equipment and Upgrades of PvP Ships.

New Players right now dont even get to the Point where they would actually have a Chance to Learn something from a Fight. Because they just get Bashed by Ships 3 times as Strong and 3 times as Fast with Armor that they cant even Hurt when Sterncamping....

But thats not all. The main Problem remains.

Because the PvPers HATE the Constant Grind for new Upgrades and Stuff.

And the PvEers dont want to be Constantly Fighting.

This Game cannot possibly get anywhere unless it decides on One Group and Adjusts the Gameplay Accordingly.

 

16 hours ago, Wind said:

This game already succeeded.

300 000 sales x $40 = 12mil

 

 

Actually there is only 100-200 Thousand Owners Listed. Not 300...

Pls note that not all of these were Full Price Purchases. There is Events and Sales in this as well.

By now the Game only Costs 37 Euros. I think it was about 50 at Start.

But hey lets assume 50.

That would be 10 Million.

Take off Steam Shares and your down to 7 Million.

Take off Development cost like Salary for the Devs and Equipment to Start as well as Rent and Building Maintenance and Servers etc etc and your likely down to less than 2 Million.

And here is the Catch.

The Game is still Costing Money. If the Servers and Maintenance would cost less than 10.000 per Month I would be Really Surprised. And the Dev Team needs to be Equipped and Fed as well. Meaning that you can likely assume at least 30-40k per Month on just keeping the Lights on.

This means the 2 Million of actual Profit they made is being Eaten away at a good Pace. And the Main Sales are done. The Sales will likely only Drop from now on.

Needless to say less Money per Sold Copy comes in due to Price Drops.

 

Long Story Short.

Not even 2 Years after the Game is out. They are likely at a Point where each Month their Stockpile of Money is Dropping rather than Rising.

Now gladly the Devs are not just Stubborn on their Game when its about how they make it. They are just as Stubborn about making it.

Meaning that they will likely keep the Lights and Servers on till the Bitter End.

But at this Rate right now. This Bitter End might come in 3-4 Years. And unless they change something Tremendously this might be faster than the Game leaves Early Access :P

 

Now who knows.

Maybe they got an Ace up their Sleeves and will Suddenly bring out a Super Big Update that will actually change the Game.

They said in the Past that they were Planning to Add much more PvE Content for the Players to Play with.

Which would Run the Game more into PvE Direction by Providing actual Content and thus might give some new Momentum.

But so far unfortunately little to nothing happens. :)

 

 

 

 

 

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Returned to NA after at least 1.5 years of absence and I have to agree with the OP. The game seems to be in hiatus and waiting for the bitter end. Maybe the Devs should just pull the plug. It was a noble effort, but it did not work out good.

Edited by Voltaire1512

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On July 15, 2018 at 3:44 AM, Voltaire1512 said:

Returned to NA after at least 1.5 years of absence and I have to agree with the OP. The game seems to be in hiatus and waiting for the bitter end. Maybe the Devs should just pull the plug. It was a noble effort, but it did not work out good.

They should sell Legends to Wargaming or gaijn. They might even let it resemble what it was supposed to be. 

Either way it's obvious, despite the devs best effort they are simply over their heads on this one. It seems like they don't have the staff needed to pull Naval Action in any way shape or form off.

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The future of the game basically boils down to new player retention. The people that are invested in the game with lots of ships and big clans are the ones that will always be here. It's the new player who load up in their cutter, get annihilated and log out that we have to worry about. I've found it extremely difficult to get friends into this game, when you need to invest lots into the game to get anywhere, only to lose all your progress when you get ganked by some wallet warrior in a Requin.

Not to mention that this game is not for the solo player, the nature of the RvR requires you to be part of a clan, and for that clan to be an active participant in nation politics. It's good in theory, but unless you're max rank with a clan supporting you with a constant supply of LO/WO 1st rates, you're limited in your enjoyment of the game.

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1 hour ago, Aaron702 said:

Not to mention that this game is not for the solo player, the nature of the RvR requires you to be part of a clan, and for that clan to be an active participant in nation politics. It's good in theory, but unless you're max rank with a clan supporting you with a constant supply of LO/WO 1st rates, you're limited in your enjoyment of the game.

And... clan #2 in my first six months is now a bust.

The whole clan thing IS a nice theory, though.  Not real wild about signing up for #3.

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40 minutes ago, Marcus Corvus said:

And... clan #2 in my first six months is now a bust.

The whole clan thing IS a nice theory, though.  Not real wild about signing up for #3.

Clan turnover is a thing and something we all deal with. But you should probably look at the clans involved with the people who've been around the longest on the forum and that would be a good place to start. I don't know what nation you play in but just ask around, look at the clans of people whose name's you recognize and hit them up in game.  They should be able to integrate you into their ship line production and get you going in steady activities. :) 

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Clan turnover is a thing and something we all deal with. But you should probably look at the clans involved with the people who've been around the longest on the forum and that would be a good place to start. I don't know what nation you play in but just ask around, look at the clans of people whose name's you recognize and hit them up in game.  They should be able to integrate you into their ship line production and get you going in steady activities. :) 

Yay, being a resource mule for higher up clan members is always what I wanted in a game.

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3 minutes ago, Justme said:

Yay, being a resource mule for higher up clan members is always what I wanted in a game.

You can play the game you want to play but even a small clan with a functioning ship line is better than playing alone with regards to time/effort vs. getting to PvP/combat.  Maybe your experience as mule is predicated on the fact that you've mostly played with assholes instead of one focused on getting ships to everyone in your clan in the most expedient way possible?  ;) 

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Much more pve NOT PvP is the way to save this game.

A small minority of players have the time to become good enough and rich enough to excel at PvP. 

Pve is a foundation that ensures more mainstream players keep intrested.

Everyone should be able to reach the top via different routes.

More PVE content will provide casual players with game satisfaction.

Not all fish are predators but they shout the loudest.

 

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3 hours ago, Crow said:

Much more pve NOT PvP is the way to save this game.

A small minority of players have the time to become good enough and rich enough to excel at PvP. 

Pve is a foundation that ensures more mainstream players keep intrested.

Everyone should be able to reach the top via different routes.

More PVE content will provide casual players with game satisfaction.

Not all fish are predators but they shout the loudest.

 

I hope you are right ( for a pve server that is )...

... but hearing a ton of players saying that fighting 1 to 2 odds against NPC is too difficult ( final exam )  I come to wonder what type of pve do we want... always a boring steamroll the NPCs ?...

... and I still wonder why players chose PvP server...

... be honest.

 

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2 hours ago, Hethwill said:

I hope you are right ( for a pve server that is )...

... but hearing a ton of players saying that fighting 1 to 2 odds against NPC is too difficult ( final exam )  I come to wonder what type of pve do we want... always a boring steamroll the NPCs ?...

... and I still wonder why players chose PvP server...

... be honest.

 

 

My opinion is that he is right.  Most of us say that majority of NA problems would go away with significantly higher player numbers.  And that's the only way to do it.  You aren't going to get significantly higher player numbers on this path of less than 100 super uber elite pvp fighters with OP ship fitouts and OP DLC's.  Not going to happen, ever.

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7 minutes ago, Jean Ribault said:

 

My opinion is that he is right.  Most of us say that majority of NA problems would go away with significantly higher player numbers.  And that's the only way to do it.  You aren't going to get significantly higher player numbers on this path of less than 100 super uber elite pvp fighters with OP ship fitouts and OP DLC's.  Not going to happen, ever.

??? Subject was more PvE activity... why is there PvP in the mix other than personal choice of playing in PvP server... *sigh* ?

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3 hours ago, Hethwill said:

I hope you are right ( for a pve server that is )...

... but hearing a ton of players saying that fighting 1 to 2 odds against NPC is too difficult ( final exam )  I come to wonder what type of pve do we want... always a boring steamroll the NPCs ?...

... and I still wonder why players chose PvP server...

... be honest.

 

Because once you get outside of the capital zones the PvE server is a player desert.

And one of the reasons is the inability to see contract activity without visiting a port.  It stovepipes the player econ inside capital region ports.  Which means no players in the open world, so nothing but AI to interact with.  Might as well be a non-multiplayer game that happens to be mostly devoid of content.

Would YOU play that game?  The same structural problem is present on PvP but it is masked by the larger player base and the player dispersion from the PvP activity.

I get the distinct impression that very few of the posters in these forums have any interest in how the player economy actually works. 

Or fails to work.  If the player economy doesn't function on PvE, it really doesn't function at all.  It is merely propped up by other game factors and the whole thing probably ought to go over the side and be done with it.

My discussion on the matter from EXACTLY this question from @admin

 

I am flabbergasted this keeps getting asked.

If this game is going to have a player economy, get it working on PvE.  That will benefit both servers.

Or don't have one at all.

 

Edited by Marcus Corvus
correction
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8 hours ago, Hethwill said:

??? Subject was more PvE activity... why is there PvP in the mix other than personal choice of playing in PvP server... *sigh* ?

 

I guess you didn't read my comment completely, or just didn't understand it.  I was talking about PVE.

I was clearly saying that PVE IS NEEDED, just comparing it to the flipside which will not produce the desired results, in the context of higher server numbers.

Or maybe I just don't understand your response because it makes no sens to me.

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No worries. I find it confusing myself. When bots are challenging - it is too hard! - if they are too easy - it is boring! - what kind of pve indeed.

And no, there's nothing beyond combat against bots and trading with "bot" markets. That's been established.

PvE server -and- PvP server ( with pve option but always open to pvp).

Make yer choice, sir.

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35 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

...

PvE server -and- PvP server ( with pve option but always open to pvp).

Make yer choice, sir.

 

Not necessary to choose, I do both.

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13 hours ago, Hethwill said:

I hope you are right ( for a pve server that is )...

... but hearing a ton of players saying that fighting 1 to 2 odds against NPC is too difficult ( final exam )  I come to wonder what type of pve do we want... always a boring steamroll the NPCs ?...

... and I still wonder why players chose PvP server...

... be honest.

 

PVE only guys want brain dead AI fleets to massacre and to sail back and forth between point A and B with 0 risk.

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2 hours ago, Hethwill said:

No worries. I find it confusing myself. When bots are challenging - it is too hard! - if they are too easy - it is boring! - what kind of pve indeed.

And no, there's nothing beyond combat against bots and trading with "bot" markets. That's been established.

PvE server -and- PvP server ( with pve option but always open to pvp).

Make yer choice, sir.

Thats not really True.

I still remember when you Buffed the AI Fleets. And that was not Challenging.

It was simply a mess. The NPCs basicly ignored Wind and Waves and could Shoot Full Broadsides out of their Front or Rear because their Cannon Shooting Arcs where basicly 170 Degree instead of the like 90 Degree a Player gets. 

The NPCs were just as stupid and boring as before. Instead of having any improvement on constantly sailing straight into the Wind and getting stuck they simply Cheated and kept Broadsiding you out of their Arses....

And this is not Challenging. Because Skill doesnt help here. After all what good does it do to you when you can Maneuver as you want and still will be inside the Enemies Broadside Arc simply due to him having Arcs so wide that they can shoot Broadside out of their Rear lol

 

The Problem with NPCs is that they are Boring.

All of them Sail almost exactly the same. They are 100% Predictable and constantly get Stuck on Beaches or against the Wind unable to do anything to you because they need an hour to get around.

All of em can be Manipulated because if you Turn in on them they will turn around as well showing you their Rear and allowing you to just shoot into it.

What we wanted you to Fix was that the NPCs become somewhat Smarter and more Varied. So they Employ different Tactics and dont constantly get stuck.

Instead you simply went ahead giving them such wide firing Arcs that they could get Stuck but just Shoot you anyways.

 

Its the same as with Strategy Games. Turn Civilization on Godlike and the NPC will be just as stupid as before. The only difference is he gets like 100 times ressources and research thus having an Army 10 times as big and 2 ages ahead of you.

 

 

 

Challenging would be if after a Maneuver I would not know how the NPC Reacts.

Challenging would be if the NPC would not Shoot each Cannon as it goes into the Arc thus allowing me to just Deflect his First Salvo by Angling. And would instead wait for a Good Chance to Shoot.

Challenging would be if the NPC would be able to Sail Properly and would not constantly end up Stuck on Beaches or against the Wind and then needing long to get around again.

Challenging would be if the NPCs would have Different Classes and Tactics.

 

 

Each Rank of Captain should have a Set of at least 3-5 Tactical Behaviors for each Ship Class he is usually using.

So that an Admiral with a Ship of the Line will attempt to stay at Range and in its Fleet Formation. Instead of instantly closing in due to the "I have higher Crew so I try to Board" programming....

While a low level Commander with a Small Frigate might be more stupid and try to go for a Close Combat Fight Maneuver Fight.

 

The entire Programming based on Stats is Bullcrab anyways. In Reality you did not know the Enemy Crew Strength and while you could classify a Frigate from a Ship of the Line. Anything more Accurate like Class or Armament etc was something you would not know till your much closer. And you would never know how fast or agile that ship is and how much Firepower it has. Having the NPC Programmend to line out its entire behavior based on such Stats is not only unrealistic but also makes the Game super Boring because the NPC always does the same.

 

The NPC Should decide a Strategy based on Raw Size/Class and should have a Chance to Alter this Strategy during Battle.

For example if both the NPC and the Player have a Frigate. The NPC could decide to go for a Straight on Broadside Battle.

Then if he takes 2 Broadsides where he takes Significant Damage while not causing much Damage to the Enemy he could have a certain Chance to Disengage from Broadside Battle and Change to Maneuver Combat.

There should be Variations here as well. One NPC Should try to Match Speed in Broadside Combat trying to stay on Middle Range.

Another might try to be Faster while Closing in on Parallel.

A Third Strategy might always run faster or slower but staying distance to try and force the Enemy into Bad Wind.

 

 

 

If you want to make NPCs Challenging just Buffing their Stats and allowing them to Cheat is not going to make any Player have more Fun.

Do you know why Dark Souls was so Successful despite being super hard ???

Because it was FAIR. Enemies where not Dangerous due to being Cheating or Overpowered. But because they had Behavior Sets and Attacks which changed with each Enemy thus keeping the Game super Interesting as you constantly had to Update your Tactics but never had the Feeling that you only lost or died due to the Enemy Cheating you.

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On 7/16/2018 at 10:47 AM, Wraith said:

You can play the game you want to play but even a small clan with a functioning ship line is better than playing alone with regards to time/effort vs. getting to PvP/combat.  Maybe your experience as mule is predicated on the fact that you've mostly played with assholes instead of one focused on getting ships to everyone in your clan in the most expedient way possible?  ;) 

It still blows folks minds when I hand them a first rate like it’s candy.  We have at all times a dozen Oceans and Bellonas on stand by ready.  I even started to jot some of those with cannons to quickly hand out.  

I was once told when I joined BLACK back on global.  The clan is as weak as the weakest player that shows up to fight.  So if the guy next to me is in a crap store boaght ship it’s my fault for not getting him into something better.  I still think this way with how I have ran UISK in Russia and now CSA in US.  Part of what makes that happen is you have to as a clan pool all your resources together and work as a t am to make it happen.

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@Sunleader

You are correct regarding the AI. 100%

But you see, best AI behavior coding, and most "bang for the buck", is to replace the NPCs with Human Players. That way the NPCs become unpredictable, do have to work the wind, etc etc etc

Oh wait...

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On 7/16/2018 at 6:41 AM, Wraith said:

Clan turnover is a thing and something we all deal with. But you should probably look at the clans involved with the people who've been around the longest on the forum and that would be a good place to start. I don't know what nation you play in but just ask around, look at the clans of people whose name's you recognize and hit them up in game.  They should be able to integrate you into their ship line production and get you going in steady activities. :) 

US, but I would consider changing nations to join one where the play styles were friendly to merchant activity.  The first one was a bad fit in that regard.  The second one was better but it recently collapsed.  According to one of the remaining members, an officer looted the clan warehouse and skipped town to join a different nation.  The founder didn't appear to be very picky about who he gave officer status to.

I am hoping the planned clan leaderboard provides enough information.  This appears to have been a long-standing weakness in the integration of new players.  Very few of my fellow clan members in either of my first two appeared to have any awareness of these forums.  Which means new players are pretty much at the mercy of whoever happens to recruit them.

Not a good plan for player retention.

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16 minutes ago, Marcus Corvus said:

US, but I would consider changing nations to join one where the play styles were friendly to merchant activity.  The first one was a bad fit in that regard.  The second one was better but it recently collapsed.  According to one of the remaining members, an officer looted the clan warehouse and skipped town to join a different nation.  The founder didn't appear to be very picky about who he gave officer status to.

I am hoping the planned clan leaderboard provides enough information.  This appears to have been a long-standing weakness in the integration of new players.  Very few of my fellow clan members in either of my first two appeared to have any awareness of these forums.  Which means new players are pretty much at the mercy of whoever happens to recruit them.

Not a good plan for player retention.

What nation are you in by chance?  

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On 7/7/2018 at 11:22 PM, HachiRoku said:

newly released on steam and games tend to loose 90% of playerbase after 2-3 weeks. Its rare for games not to. Devs dont market and that also is a BIG issue. Most entertainment products have 50% of the budget for marketing. 

Not really. There are a lot of people who are interested in it. I am a former player and quit because of the obvious reasons. When I started there was a playerbase of ~1500 for several months. The downward spiral began when certain clans thought it's a great idea to exploit, wipe out nations or gank the crap out of other players especially the new ones around the capitals.

 

I told this will happen 2 years ago but the gankers didn't stop. Btw where are they now? Especially that one "special" clan?

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