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Fluffy Fishy

Shot Weightings By Nation

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Over the past few weeks i've been slowly working on this little project. I am aiming to properly collect and show the different weightings of guns used by some of the major navies of the 18th century. I'd also like to start out by saying thank you to the people who helped me collect some of the data and the advise they have given me while I have started the undertaking of the project, so to all those who helped me I very much appreciate it thank you.

I started this project mainly to look at the various weapons we have in NA, and what we could potentially add to the mix to make a slightly more diverse game, with more load out options and more opportunities for sailing the ship set up you want to sail. Its also a pretty good insight into whether ships should or shouldn't have specific armaments available to them to be used, with some additional ideas from history that could be used. To get to this point I have spent quite a long time consulting my various books and also online resources and the communities here and elsewhere and while I have done my best to collect the most accurate data I can. I'm sure there are things I have missed or got wrong so please do correct me if that is the case, it would be great to see this grow into a wider community project where we can get specialists in their area to offer the best.

Some notes that I took while researching this are as follows; I haven't included the USA, not because their navy isn't important but for all the data I could see, their guns and weightings are identical to those used by the British, so please take British values provided and don't get upset that I've not included the USA, the only real differences I have seen between the two are British guns were ever so slightly better quality, and they used a slightly different set of windage ratios, something I don't consider important for what I want to set out here. I've also found some evidence to Portuguese using carronades, but I am unsure whether they are British or Portuguese weightings, so haven't included them in my tables because I can't accurately say one way or the other. Something else I discovered, whilst doing this project was not only that British guns coming in short, medium and long differentiations but also that Britain subdivided their carronades too, carronades coming in a long or short version.

The first table directly below shows the comparative weightings of what these nations local weight would be when considering the current NA gun lineup. I've done this so we can see an easy comparison between what say a Danish ship's guns would weigh compared to say a Spanish, so as to show for example the distinction between a Danish 24lb and a Spanish 24lb, it also means you can look at how a Portuguese 18lb gun is more similar to the power of a British 42lb, which seems crazy. Now lets get into the data itself, I have included because I think its important the localisation of the weights used, it not only makes it easier to discuss the particular guns involved but also creates a nice little additional flavour to the chart. Something I do find fascinating as it shows below is the complete range of weightings of the old imperial systems used by their respective nations, the difference between the lightest, the Venetian Libra Sotti and heaviest, the Turkish Okka being almost an entire kilogram at 981g in difference, not that it makes as big of a difference in the field as the 2nd table I have built shows. Its also staggering how different the weights can be between geographically close nations with Portugal using guns of almost double the weight of Spain.

Typical Guns British (453g) French Livre (489g) Russian Funt (494g) Spanish Libre (459g) Turkish Okka (1282g) Dutch Pond (494g) Venetian Libbre Sottili (301g) Portugese Libra (459g) Swedish Skålpund (425g) Danish-Norwegian Pund (499g)
6 2.718 2.934 2.97 2.754 7.692 2.964 1.806 2.754 2.55 2.994
9 4.077 4.401 4.455 4.131 11.538 4.446 2.709 4.131 3.825 4.491
12 5.436 5.868 5.94 5.508 15.384 5.928 3.612 5.508 5.1 5.988
18 8.154 8.802 8.91 8.262 23.076 8.892 5.418 8.262 7.65 8.982
24 10.872 11.736 11.88 11.016 30.768 11.856 7.224 11.016 10.2 11.976
32 14.496 15.648 15.84 14.688 41.024 15.808 9.632 14.688 13.6 15.968
36 16.308 17.604 17.82 16.524 46.152 17.784 10.836 16.524 15.3 17.964
42 19.026 20.538 20.79 19.278 53.844 20.748 12.642 19.278 17.85 20.958
68 30.804 33.252 33.66 31.212 87.176 33.592 20.468 31.212 28.9 33.932

The second table, shows a list of the typical guns I have found used by each of the nations I have looked at is they most often use the same numbers, something that staggered me is the amount of different guns Russia uses, almost double the standard armaments I found for typical British ships. I also find it quite interesting to see that to combat the British carronade, the French supplied the Spanish with their own French made obusiers, which adds a slightly interesting relation in that they were supplied with french ball sizes, something that must have caused quite some chaos if not properly organised within Spanish vessels. I also found some pretty interesting and unusual armaments used by a few of the less typical nations, for example the giant turkish kantar guns, I will leave a drawing of these in a spoiler at the bottom. Overall I hope I have the entire collection, I've not included smaller guns like swivels here just because I don't want to fiddle around with largely incomplete and difficult data beyond a few nations.

Britain (453g) France (489g) Russia (494g) Spain (459g) Turkey (1282g) Netherlands (494g) Venice (301g) Portugal (1012g) Sweden (425g) Denmark-Norway (499g)
42lb 36lb 68lb 36lb 14 okka 40lb 50lb 36lb 36lb 36lb
32lb 30lb 60lb 24lb 9 okka 36lb 40lb 24lb 30lb 24lb
24lb 24lb 48lb 18lb 5 okka 30lb 30lb 18lb 24lb 18lb
18lb 18lb 36lb 12lb 3 okka 24lb 20lb 12lb 18lb 12lb
12lb 12lb 30lb 8lb 1.5 okka 18lb 16lb 9lb 12lb 8lb
9lb 8lb 24lb 6lb 3 Kantar (169.5kg) 12lb 14lb 6lb 8lb 6lb
6lb 6lb 18lb 4lb 1 Kantar (56.5kg) 9lb 12lb   6lb  
4lb 4lb 12lb 48lb Obusier (French lb) 1/2 Kantar (28.3kg) 6lb 9lb   4lb  
3lb 48lb Obusier 8lb 36lb Obusier (French lb)     6lb   3lb  
68lb Carronade 36lb Obusier 6lb 30lb Obusier (French lb)     200lb Tirar Bombe (30lb)   2lb  
32lb Carronade 30lb Obusier 3lb 24lb Obusier (French lb)     120lb Tirar Bombe (20lb)      
24lb Carronade 24lb Obusier 96lb Carronade 18lb Obusier (French lb)            
18lb Carronade 18lb Obusier 68lb Carronade 12lb Obusier (French lb)            
  12lb Obusier 48lb Carronade              
    36lb Carronade              
    30lb Carronade              
    24lb Carronade              
    18lb Carronade              
    12lb Carronade              
    8lb Carronade              
    6lb Carronade              
    1 Pood Edinorog (63lb)              
    1/2 Pood Edinorog (29lb)              
    1/4 Pood Edinorog (9lb)              

I'd also like to post this picture of a reference I found in relation to the weightings of Bronze and Iron guns, with bronze being a fantastic ordinance metal, although not very typical outside of prestigious ships or ships that are in some of the less researched navies such as the Ottomans.  The use of Bronze guns over iron creates some distinct advantages in that the guns can be recast almost indefinitely, they are less dangerous to their operators, they can also take more powder and offer less friction naturally whilst also not rusting so offering better range, damage and penetration. The other benefit to bronze weapons is they can maintain a longer sustained fire as the metal cools much quicker than iron does, with heat in general having a less of an affect on their performance. Their main drawbacks is they are massively more expensive, with bronze costing about 5-12x the price of iron depending on the time period involved making it hugely expensive to equip a navy, with their massive need for huge quantities of guns and also that bronze guns require slightly more maintenance due to the barrel tending to wear slightly faster, although the main cost of recasting the gun is the time and equipment, with the material being so easily recycled, but also being harder and more dense, taking longer to drill.

0hTneJo.png

Finally I'd like to talk about how this could change the game itself, I'd personally like to see more choice available I'd like to see the addition of short cut cannons, obusiers and bronze guns, I'd also like to see the division of carronades into short and long cuts each with their own advantages and disadvantages, for example bronze being much more expensive to craft and purchase but offer a minor bonus to combat statistics, with long carronades having a little more weight, but slightly more stopping power, whilst short ones taking less time to reload and being lighter. It would also be great to see the French obusiers make an appearance, being a middle ground between a short cannon and carronade offering its own perspective and use in combat. This all allowing for more historical accuracy and diversity within the game.

Thank you for reading, please let me know any corrections of questions you might have, I am always up for a good discussion and hope you have enjoyed the data I have collected with the help of a few firends, sadly I haven't kept a list of sources so may struggle to find them again but if you want to know where I got any information I will do my best to relocate it for anyone who asks. Thank you again, I will leaves some pictures of some of the more unique guns in the spoiler below.

 

The French Obusier, a direct competitor to the British carronade, this was basically just a naval howitzer used to provide higher firepower to at first French but later supplied to Spanish ships too, one of the landmark guns of the period.

Obusier_de_vaisseau-IMG_8616-white.jpg

The Turkish Kantar gun, the huge raging monster that comes cast in bronze with some of the highest weightings I have ever come across, with projectiles of 169.5kg, 59.5kg and 28.3kg, it was built in a way so as to produce the most poundage whilst not increasing the weight of the gun too dramatically, they used a small winch system to load and were incredibly devastating but also very short range, the smallest weighting became a common main gun armament for large Turkish ships in the later 18th century.

mjakuRn.png

The Tirar Bombe, in many ways the forefather to the Paixhan gun and Russian Unicorn (Edinorog), but superior in every way, it was created from the large calibre arms race between the Venetians and Turks in the late 17th century and used well into the 18th. It was built using ideas from mortars and typical cannons to improve performance and fire either stone shot or explosive shells on a flat trajectory over huge distances with great accuracy. It uses not only a conical rather than cylindrical barrel but also an ovoid rather than round shot to improve range and accuracy. The also gun contained a constant aim system, something not seen again until 1898, a staggering piece of equipment. While it officially comes in calibres of 200lb and 120lb the actual shots weighed more similarly to the typical 30lb and 20lb shots.

Wjln1DL.jpg

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
Portuguese numbers edited, I left the main text as it was but some of it is now defunct, Thank you Lieste.
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Without limited/craftable ammo this game will never feel alright. Adding new guns, but having magical ammo is just silly. I did tons of research myself on 100s of different topics that are now collecting dust. Good work btw.. I admire people who love history. 

Edited by Wind
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3 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

I almost got a heart attack thinking it's a suggestion topic 😅

By all means if you want to use any of the data I've collected to build suggestions I am more than happy for anyone to use it open source style. I would gladly suggest quite a few of these guns, the 2nd to last paragraph did have a bit of a suggestive undertone ;)

1 minute ago, Wind said:

Without limited/craftable ammo this game will never feel alright. I di tons of research myself on 100s of different topics collecting dust. Good work btw.. I admire people who love history. 

Thank you, I would love to see limited ammunition in the game but more than anything I would like to see a bit more diversity on how you can arm ships. I'd mainly just like to see the obusiers, bronze and different gun cuts.

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16 minutes ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

Thank you, I would love to see limited ammunition in the game but more than anything I would like to see a bit more diversity on how you can arm ships. I'd mainly just like to see the obusiers, bronze and different gun cuts.

2

If you dig through early NA suggestions you will find a bunch of them that ask for a variety of guns, their material, and characteristics. I don't want to discourage you, but I do not think the game team has enough resources to create such content at this point. 

I think it might get attention after the game released. Right now they are just following their list and preparing to let the NA go to the public as soon as possible. 

This is the type of content NA needs badly. More guns, more gunpowder varieties, mods, ship refits, loot, ship customization options, personal avatar customization etc... and yes craftable ammo and ammo varieties that would influence ballistics (penetration, accuracy, distance etc..). 

More gun varieties + more ammo varieties + gun powder varieties = huge content addition. 

ex.

Fine Grain Powder + Carronade + Bronze ball = increased accuracy and range

and so on...

Edited by Wind
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2 minutes ago, Fenris said:

NA is ready doomed, having such "testers"....

Please explain

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26 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

I almost got a heart attack thinking it's a suggestion topic 😅

"I started this project mainly to look at the various weapons we have in NA, and what we could potentially add to the mix to make a slightly more diverse game, with more load out options and more opportunities for sailing the ship set up you want to sail"

"Finally I'd like to talk about how this could change the game itself, I'd personally like to see more choice available"

There you go.:rolleyes:

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4 minutes ago, Fenris said:

"I started this project mainly to look at the various weapons we have in NA, and what we could potentially add to the mix to make a slightly more diverse game, with more load out options and more opportunities for sailing the ship set up you want to sail"

"Finally I'd like to talk about how this could change the game itself, I'd personally like to see more choice available"

There you go.:rolleyes:

What is wrong with ideas that could be picked up by Devs? These posts are gold for any game developer who goes through these forums. You would be surprised to hear that ubi devs were camping these forums for the longest time.... 

Edited by Wind
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9 minutes ago, Fenris said:

NA is ready doomed, having such "testers"....

What is bad about posts like this one? The testers do good work and are valuable resource and they have very good knowledge on the history and ships. This kind of post is why I register here. Even if it don't get made in game it was really good for reading. Thank you @Fluffy Fishy 

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Great topic. I think the edinorog poundages were given in trade pounds, not artillery pounds.

While the national pound weights give an idea about the broadside weights, they should be compared with the weight of the guns. Heavier guns required more men, increased the heel and the strains on the hull. But the shot / gun ratio wasn't neither a criterium for best efficiency, since heavier guns absorb more energy from the recoil (decreasing the stresses or enabling to shoot with more powder).

The French obusiers were considered too dangerous with explosives, and weren't designed to shoot grape or balls. Theye were abandoned in 1804 for carronades.

Are you sure the ovoid form would improve the accuracy ? Do you know how the constant aiming system worked ? Also, any idea why those guns were abolished ? Were they threatening the survival of the wooden sailing warfare, un-christian as they said ?

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9 minutes ago, Angelo Morosini said:

What is bad about posts like this one? The testers do good work and are valuable resource and they have very good knowledge on the history and ships. This kind of post is why I register here. Even if it don't get made in game it was really good for reading. Thank you @Fluffy Fishy 

First of all, if you want to read something about ships of 17th and 18th century, you can visit any website in internet, which provides such informations.

Secondly, this project is at the edge of decay, with extremely low numbers of players, it is becoming boring very quickly, it is absolutely unbalanced, basic RoE is not fixed, there is nothing much to do but shooting ships and crafting ships.

I would expect from someone who is a "tester",  @Fluffy Fishysuggestions to break this wicked circle, named above and NOT a half ass scientific research about cannons and ships(Xebec) which are not needed.

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More gun types can be quite interesting (also dangerous due to balance issues) however crafting ammo would be a shore from the gameplay view due to logistics.

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10 minutes ago, Angelo Morosini said:

What is bad about posts like this one? The testers do good work and are valuable resource and they have very good knowledge on the history and ships. This kind of post is why I register here. Even if it don't get made in game it was really good for reading. Thank you @Fluffy Fishy 

Thank you for your kind words.

14 minutes ago, Wind said:

What is wrong with ideas that could be picked up by Devs? These posts are gold for any game developer who goes through these forums. You would be surprised to hear that ubi devs were camping these forums for the longest time.... 

I wrote this in history not in suggestions for that reason, Its mostly something I have researched and written for my own interest, but I thought I'd construct a proper post about it and share what I have learnt over the last few weeks with the community here just in case anyone was interested. While I have presented it as potentially having some opportunities for the development of the game I won't feel hard done by if the devs take no notice, I was mainly just drawing parallels between what the game uses because it made me a convenient start for the project.

8 minutes ago, Barberouge said:

Great topic. I think the edinorog poundages were given in trade pounds, not artillery pounds.

While the national pound weights give an idea about the broadside weights, they should be compared with the weight of the guns. Heavier guns required more men, increased the heel and the strains on the hull. But the shot / gun ratio wasn't neither a criterium for best efficiency, since heavier guns absorb more energy from the recoil (decreasing the stresses or enabling to shoot with more powder).

The French obusiers were considered too dangerous with explosives, and weren't designed to shoot grape or balls. Theye were abandoned in 1804 for carronades.

Are you sure the ovoid form would improve the accuracy ? Do you know how the constant aiming system worked ? Also, any idea why those guns were abolished ? Were they threatening the survival of the wooden sailing warfare, un-christian as they said ?

Thank you kindly.

I ripped the information for edinorog poundage straight out of Russian Warships in the Age of Sail 1694-1860, you are right they did use trade pounds over artillery pounds, I used the pounds given in the book, which as I read it the calculations have already been done and they quote numbers that have already been converted to artillery pounds. However if I have misread it and got it wrong I will have to modify it slightly. Here is a link for the section of the book I took the information from:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=70KyBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false

I quite like the obusiers, they have quite a pleasing design even if they lack the quality of the carronade, I also find them pretty fascinating how they spread into Spanish use.

The gun was tested with round balls as well as the ovoid its original designer intended, the ovoid shots performed significantly better than the typical round shot because they can't lose force on so many vectors so provides a straighter movement down the barrel which improves general accuracy, its a similar thought process to the sabot of the Paixhans. I'm not entirely sure how the mechanics of the system worked, I just know it had one, its built on a very light carriage and balanced in a way that made it easy to keep it aiming at its target, it also had a fairly complex range sighting mechanism, especially for its time but its important to remember the live aiming system was built for medium to long range combat. It fell out of use in the 1740s, mainly because it was fairly expensive to provide ammunition for when compared to standard guns firing round shot and this was a time that Venice wasn't fighting any major nations, only frequent action against pirates. Most of what I know about these weapons is written in these two essays:
https://www.academia.edu/14823890/_The_race_to_the_big_calibres_during_the_first_war_of_Morea_and_Sigismondo_Alberghettis_guns_of_new_invention
https://www.academia.edu/15084546/The_Russian_Unicorn_and_the_Venetian_cannone_di_nuova_inventione_

16 minutes ago, Fenris said:

First of all, if you want to read something about ships of 17th and 18th century, you can visit any website in internet, which provides such informations.

Secondly, this project is at the edge of decay, with extremely low numbers of players, it is becoming boring very quickly, it is absolutely unbalanced, basic RoE is not fixed, there is nothing much to do but shooting ships and crafting ships.

I would expect from someone who is a "tester",  @Fluffy Fishysuggestions to break this wicked circle, named above and NOT a half ass scientific research about cannons and ships(Xebec) which are not needed.

The testers were recruited for a variety of reasons I was given the position because of my research and postings on Venetian ships which I was lucky enough to receive praise from the dev team for, others were given the title for their work on improving gameplay or knowledge of sailing. There aren't any special perks for testers, they are just a core of specialists that just have access to a largely unused private subforum. I just provide some advice here and there on specific niche information that's not commonly available on the internet. If you are unhappy about what is happening to the game what are you doing to make it better? Please don't just attack other forum users for sharing work, especially as this has nothing to do with me being a tester or not.

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59 minutes ago, Fenris said:

NA is ready doomed, having such "testers"....

i speak for all of us,  if i say :

" excuse me !" i need a apologize.

also i think ball needs a restriction just like chain and the  amount of  balls needs adjusted by ship size 

did you really think that a basic cutter with 4 pounders had 800 balls on board ? (it would sink by the weight)

great topic fluf/

many battles were fought and continued the next day not because they were tired ,but they need new ammo supplies for the next battle next day

 

Edited by Thonys
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2 minutes ago, Thonys said:

i speak for all of us,  if i say :

" excuse me !" i need a apologize.

also i think ball needs a restriction just like chain and the  amount of  balls needs adjusted by ship size 

did you really think that a basic cutter with 4 pounders had 800 balls on board ? (it would sink by the weight)

great topic fluf/

 

This is a gameplay vs realism argument where I believe "gameplay should win.  Yes, we have an unrealistic amount of ammo for these ships (and powder).  However, if we were to limit ammunition, we would force players to return to port all the time.  In the real world history, there was not the amount of fighting that goes on in the game.  Battles were relatively rare (per ship).  Forcing players to return to port after each battle is no fun.  With the current battle mechanics (think of the amount of broadsides we end up firing at "repaired" ships) we would all run out of ammo halfway though a battle.

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5 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

This is a gameplay vs realism argument where I believe "gameplay should win.  Yes, we have an unrealistic amount of ammo for these ships (and powder).  However, if we were to limit ammunition, we would force players to return to port all the time.  In the real world history, there was not the amount of fighting that goes on in the game.  Battles were relatively rare (per ship).  Forcing players to return to port after each battle is no fun.  With the current battle mechanics (think of the amount of broadsides we end up firing at "repaired" ships) we would all run out of ammo halfway though a battle.

i agree it is a game 

but some gamy realism does do no arm

remember we now can trade at see

where a big trader can re-arm the fleet outside a battle at some point(or in the battle) hidden in the coast line for example 

Edited by Thonys

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16 hours ago, Thonys said:

i speak for all of us,  if i say :

" excuse me !" i need a apologize.

also i think ball needs a restriction just like chain and the  amount of  balls needs adjusted by ship size 

did you really think that a basic cutter with 4 pounders had 800 balls on board ? (it would sink by the weight)

great topic fluf/

many battles were fought and continued the next day not because they were tired ,but they need new ammo supplies for the next battle next day

 

Channel service: 10 gun Cutter loaded with 500 12lb roundshot for carronades, plus 50 case and 50 grape.
For foreign service, an additional 300 12lb shot carried.

With 4lb guns, the weight of ordnance on deck would be higher (the gun is around twice the weight of the carronade, yet the ammunition is 1/3rd the weight).

While channel service loadout might be slightly lighter with the carronade fit, the foreign service one is around one ton heavier with carronades.


As an aside as well.... if a fleet overall requires 're-munitioning' before the next day... pray where do the shot come from? Magic? I would instead think this was a period in which new cartridge could be made up for shot already carried in the fleet's shot lockers, together with a redistribution of shot between vessels where individual ships were exceptionally heavily engaged (though in that case they may also retire from the line due to damage received).

 

Edited by Lieste
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I think there is an error in the Portugeuse (Lisbon) pound, I have it noted as .459kg, the same as Spain in your table, rather than 1.012kg.

Certainly during the peninsular war, the Portuguese horse artillery and siege artillery seem to be named the same as their British equivalents - perhaps an artifact of supply by the Ordnance board, perhaps because they were functionally the same, even if not sharing an exact commonality.

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7 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

I'm not entirely sure how the mechanics of the system worked, I just know it had one, its built on a very light carriage and balanced in a way that made it easy to keep it aiming at its target, it also had a fairly complex range sighting mechanism, especially for its time but its important to remember the live aiming system was built for medium to long range combat. It fell out of use in the 1740s, mainly because it was fairly expensive to provide ammunition for when compared to standard guns firing round shot and this was a time that Venice wasn't fighting any major nations, only frequent action against pirates. Most of what I know about these weapons is written in these two essays:

https://www.academia.edu/14823890/_The_race_to_the_big_calibres_during_the_first_war_of_Morea_and_Sigismondo_Alberghettis_guns_of_new_invention
https://www.academia.edu/15084546/The_Russian_Unicorn_and_the_Venetian_cannone_di_nuova_inventione_

I hadn't had time to read the first. Apparently the guns weren't abandoned nor discontinued. Their inability to spread would have come from the wrong way they were used, due to conservatism. The author also mentions the difficulty to convince and the Venetian successes.

Paixhans develops the same argumentation promoting a wider use of naval howitzers. He rejects however the criticisms of physical and moral effects, mentioning the usual splinters and grape shot and the bombing of cities. For him the reluctance comes from the questioning of the whole age of sail, which he calls the glory of captains and shipbuilders.

It seems that the Paixhans guns in their construction and use overcame the drawbacks of Alberghetti's guns. Maybe they spread because the ironclads were ready.

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The ordonnance of 1786 mentions 18lb and 24lb obusiers (on paper),  but the archives and tables of 1787 mention only 36lb obusiers (in practice).

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17 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

what are you doing to make it better?

Gave up trying, because:

1. Nobody listening/reading anyway.

2. Devs have totally different idea how this game should be, than the most people playing it.

3. Their ideas,solutions, reflect the numbers of players on the server, which are low.

So, bad design and unsolved questions brought NA from 2500 players to several hundred on good days..

Questions?

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21 hours ago, Lieste said:

I think there is an error in the Portugeuse (Lisbon) pound, I have it noted as .459kg, the same as Spain in your table, rather than 1.012kg.

Certainly during the peninsular war, the Portuguese horse artillery and siege artillery seem to be named the same as their British equivalents - perhaps an artifact of supply by the Ordnance board, perhaps because they were functionally the same, even if not sharing an exact commonality.

Thank you for your comment, I've been thinking about it today, mainly because I don't have a particularly useful sources on it. For Portugal I just used threedecks as I couldn't find anything better, Sella22 also doubted it saying they were the same as Spain but I was unsure, I might email the threedecks team to find out what they based their information on. My initial thoughts are that Portugal might have used the same weightings for land artillery as Spain but kept to themselves for navies. It does however seem slightly out of touch with the other European navies something I didn't think too much of because of the high weighting of shots used by Russia and the Ottomans, with the 1/4 Kantar and 68 Funt guns respectively both weighing not far off the Portuguese 36s, it also struck me how not many Portuguese ships actually carried their largest guns, mostly capping out at 24lb which doesn't sound unreasonable.

If you have any sources on the matter please do share them, if not I will get in contact with threedecks to see what they say. :)

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The Portuguese customary unit (arretel) was .459kg between 1495 and 1814.

With the adoption of the metric system in 1814, the arratel became 1kg (nominal at least), but ordnance for a 24 lb ship would still only be 11kg, not 24kg shot (IMO).

In 1852, the customary units were formally replaced by the standard metric units, using international naming conventions.

There *might* be some oddities when looking at vessels commissioned (or written about) in the period between 1814 and 1852.

Edited by Lieste
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23 minutes ago, Lieste said:

The Portuguese customary unit (arretel) was .459kg between 1495 and 1814.

With the adoption of the metric system in 1814, the arratel became 1kg (nominal at least), but ordnance for a 24 lb ship would still only be 11kg, not 24kg shot (IMO).

In 1852, the customary units were formally replaced by the standard metric units, using international naming conventions.

There *might* be some oddities when looking at vessels commissioned (or written about) in the period between 1814 and 1852.

So what you are saying is it should be much lower in general and threedecks is making a fairly major mistake?

And when we look at ships like this they have bad calculations:
https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=7863

The 74 above is a useful one because it shows a rearm in 1822 with much lower numerical valued weapons, at least when you are considering the change in shot so it should be:

  • 1792: Broadside Weight = 1032 (473.688kg) (Pre Metric)
  • 1822: Broadside Weight = 732 (740.784kg) (Post Metric)

That does seem much more reasonable and in line with other nations. Do you have any sources I can see, even if they are in Portuguese? Also out of interest what is your thought on how/why threedecks makes the mistake?

Thank you for the help.

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