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pandakraut

Hidden mechanics and weapon damage degradation

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Here are some of the behind the scenes mechanics I've learned about while modding. I've posted about several of these previously but wanted to get them all compiled into a single location.

Weapon Recovery Rates
Colonel difficulty rates
    Win - supplyCapturePercent: 0.5 - weaponCapturePercent: 0.3 - weaponCaptureUnitPercent: 1 - weaponSavePercent: 0.5
    Draw - supplyCapturePercent: 0.5 - weaponCapturePercent: 0.15 - weaponCaptureUnitPercent: 1 - weaponSavePercent: 0.3
    Loss - supplyCapturePercent: 0.5 - weaponCapturePercent: 0.05 - weaponCaptureUnitPercent: 1 - weaponSavePercent2: 0.1
Brigadier General difficulty rates
    Win - supplyCapturePercent: 0.5 - weaponCapturePercent: 0.2 - weaponCaptureUnitPercent: 0.75 - weaponSavePercent: 0.5
    Draw - supplyCapturePercent: 0.5 - weaponCapturePercent: 0.15 - weaponCaptureUnitPercent: 0.75 - weaponSavePercent: 0.25
    Loss - supplyCapturePercent: 0.5 - weaponCapturePercent: 0.05 - weaponCaptureUnitPercent: 0.75 - weaponSavePercent: 0.1
Major General and Legendary
    Win - supplyCapturePercent: 0.5 - weaponCapturePercent: 0.1 - weaponCaptureUnitPercent: 0.5 - weaponSavePercent: 0.3
    Draw - supplyCapturePercent: 0.5 - weaponCapturePercent: 0.05 - weaponCaptureUnitPercent: 0.5 - weaponSavePercent: 0.15
    Loss - supplyCapturePercent: 0.5 - weaponCapturePercent: 0.05 - weaponCaptureUnitPercent: 0.5 - weaponSavePercent: 0.1
- weaponCaptureUnitPercent is currently not used in the base game so no weapons are recovered from captured units. 
- You will still get the weapons from the men that were killed in a unit that is captured.

Shatter Mechanics 
- infantry: hp% < .25 and morale% < 0.1 = shatter. hp% < .1 = shatter
- artillery: hp% < .3 and morale% < 0.2 = shatter. hp% < .1 = shatter
- cavalry: hp% < .4 and morale% < 0.2 = shatter. hp% < .1 = shatter
- skirmishers: hp% < .35 and morale% < 0.2 = shatter. hp% < .1 = shatter
- Shattering is worse than capturing in terms of the AISize. Capture is the only way to fully remove an entire unit from the AIsize.
- Shattered units do allow you to recover their weapons.
- AI tech and training are also affected by reducing the AISize.

From battle to battle, the only damage you can deal to the AI is reducing the AI Size, indicated by the intelligence report size percentage. Lowering the AISize has an impact on training and technology. However, all three values have a minimum amount based on the current timeline of the campaign. For example, if the AI size is 60k prior to 2nd bull run. You inflict 40k casualties and then post battle the AISize is now 65k. The resulting size is lower than it could have been, but limited by the minimum. On the harder difficulties this means that it is not always worth it to kill everything if you take to many losses to do it as the AI always gets 'free' troops back. It is also possible to not get enough kills and then the AISize will start to grow beyond the minimum.

Also note, the AISize is not actually a limit on what you will face in battle. A variety of scaling factors can push that number higher or lower.

Optimal Unit Sizes for Damage
These vary slightly based on weapon damage. The benefit of adding men/guns decreases significantly prior to these limits so using a slightly smaller size will be more optimal if money is a concern.
- max artillery size for ranged damage ~14
- max skirmisher size for ranged damage ~375
- max infantry size for ranged damage ~1845
- mounted cavalry ranged attacks never fall off due to unit size. Larger units will always deal more damage. 
- The benefits of adding more men to mounted cavalry starts to yield decreasing returns between 500-600.
- dismounted cavalry have the same optimum size as normal skirmishers at ~375
- melee damage will always continuously go up based on size though for some unit types it will do so at a diminishing rate.

Battle Mechanics
- Higher elevation gives increased accuracy/damage and morale regeneration.
- Weapons always hit but can do < 1 damage with enough negative modifiers.
- Base Damage Calculation is Weapon damage * Random value between AccuracyLow / 100 and Accuracy High / 100. 
- Artillery Shell shot modifies damage by 1.2 and accuracy low by .75.
- Artillery Canister shot modifies damage by 1.75 and accuracy low by .5.
- Canister shot is out to .25 of maximum range.
- Shell shot is from .25 to .5 of maximum range.

The spreadsheets attached below show the damage degradation as range increases for each weapon. You must be logged into the forum to access them.
Rifles have a RangeHint column which contains the range value displayed in game UI for each weapon. This value frequently does not match the weapons actual range.
The RangeHint value helps show the player which rifles are more effective at longer ranges, but to me are misleading in some cases.

Keep in mind that some of these stats in isolation can be misleading. Nothing replaces actually trying out weapons yourself. For artillery I would also highly encourage you to read this guide first https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1105446690. The conclusions within match up with the data very accurately and are probably a better starting point.

ArtilleryWeaponCurves.xlsx

CavalryWeaponCurves.xlsx

InfantryWeaponCurves.xlsx

SkirmisherWeaponCurves.xlsx

WeaponStats.xlsx

DamageFalloffBySize.xlsx

@TechnoSarge has also done some additional analysis on price effectiveness and dps which you can find here. Summary: http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26142-hidden-mechanics-and-weapon-damage-degradation/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-574298

Analysis spreadsheets: http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26142-hidden-mechanics-and-weapon-damage-degradation/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-573686

 

Edited by pandakraut
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So to estimate the damage of the gun at a specific range, we take the base damage calculation formula, and multiply by the DegradeMultiplier?

Do you plan to modify these curves in the mod? Or can you make it easier somewhere to see the curves for the modded-renamed weapons?

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2 hours ago, drhay53 said:

So to estimate the damage of the gun at a specific range, we take the base damage calculation formula, and multiply by the DegradeMultiplier?

That will give you a good enough idea to be able to compare weapons. Just don't expect that result to match exact damage numbers in the game.

2 hours ago, drhay53 said:

Do you plan to modify these curves in the mod? Or can you make it easier somewhere to see the curves for the modded-renamed weapons?

No plans to modify these in the mod at this time. The mod weapons have different ranges which changes the curves somewhat, though fundamentally they are still the same shape. In the mod I have added some basic tooltips to try and describe the results of the curves though they could use some serious improvement. I'll post a mod specific set of spreadsheets in that thread at some point.

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Elevation advantage is very interesting. I'd always held hills because the stamina drain for climbing them is a key factor in getting extra volleys into advancing brigades. The higher fire rates of units in the mod already made them some of the best defensive positions in the game, but now there's even more reason to hold the high ground.

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Excellent work pandakraut. Definitely a must have mod if not utilizing another mod.

 

Edited by PaloAlto
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A very excellent post.

 

I wonder if there are curves where increased unit levels eventually overcome the most efficient number for fire damage. For example if a full 50 gun battery churns out more total damage, or if a 1k cav or 4k infantry group, etc. They certainly have other benefits such as being much more sturdy but I still wonder.

Edited by chemical_art

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4 minutes ago, chemical_art said:

I wonder if there are curves where increased unit levels eventually overcome the most efficient number for fire damage. For example if a full 50 gun battery churns out more total damage, or if a 1k cav or 4k infantry group, etc. They certainly have other benefits such as being much more sturdy but I still wonder.

For the base game it is impossible to overcome the falloff with player units. For infantry, the AI will be able to surpass the peak damage around 2850 men. Skirmishers can't surpass the peak even at 1k men. Artillery surpass it around 44 guns. Higher or lower damage from weapons, perks, etc will move those numbers slightly but you probably won't be able to notice as long as you're within 50 or so men or 1 cannon in either direction.

When modded unit sizes get involved you will hit the lowest damage point at the base game max unit size. Then damage will begin to climb linearly again.

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37 minutes ago, pandakraut said:

For the base game it is impossible to overcome the falloff with player units. For infantry, the AI will be able to surpass the peak damage around 2850 men. Skirmishers can't surpass the peak even at 1k men. Artillery surpass it around 44 guns. Higher or lower damage from weapons, perks, etc will move those numbers slightly but you probably won't be able to notice as long as you're within 50 or so men or 1 cannon in either direction.

When modded unit sizes get involved you will hit the lowest damage point at the base game max unit size. Then damage will begin to climb linearly again.

Gotcha, although what is base game max unit sizes? Sorry for my ignorance, I want to learn!

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7 minutes ago, chemical_art said:

although what is base game max unit sizes?

Player, AI

Infantry: 2500, 2950

Cavalry: 750, 1050

Skirmishers: 750, 1000

Artillery: 600(24), 600(24)

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Thanks for this, really appreciate it.

Do you know if/how a unit's stats and traits affect the damage calculation, i.e. will +10% accuracy have a greater effect on a unit's damage if given a high accuracy low damage gun (to get more out of the multiplication)? Also, is the range value of different types of weapons the same, so is 200 range for artillery weapons and infantry weapons the same distance in game?

Some insights I gained (If i'm understanding this correctly):

The 12pdr Howitzer and 20pdr Parrott are terrible. The 10pdr ordnance is the probably the best value arty in the game and between 400 and 500 range, probably the most common range for me to have arty, while still having good damage at 300 to 400, although it falls off comparatively after 500. I do not understand why the 10pdr ordnance has a damage high of 59.8 and the 12pdr Howitzer only has a damage high of 29, feels like those two should be revered. The 24pdr Howitzer is way better than any other arty in the 300 to 600 range, only the James at 600 range and the Napoleon at 300 range does more than half the damage of the 24pdr.

Almost all infantry weapons have a max range of 300, regardless of what the weapon card says, which is weird. The Enfield is better than the 1855 or Harpers Ferry and only marginally worse than the 1861 beyond around 200 range.The Lorenz is similarly only slightly worse than the 1855, harpers ferry, and 1861 (and much better than the Enfield 100 and in). The Fayetteville is head and shoulders better than every other infantry weapon.

Edited by pinsripes3333
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6 minutes ago, pinsripes3333 said:

Do you know if/how a unit's stats and traits affect the damage calculation, i.e. will +10% accuracy have a greater effect on a unit's damage if given a high accuracy low damage gun (to get more out of the multiplication)? Also, is the range value of different types of weapons the same, so is 200 range for artillery weapons and infantry weapons the same distance in game?

The + accuracy perks affect both the accuracy low and accuracy high by the same amount. As far as I can tell + accuracy is generically good and there isn't any extra benefit to specific weapon types. Range values are the same across different weapon types.

12 minutes ago, pinsripes3333 said:

The 12pdr Howitzer and 20pdr Parrott are terrible. The 10pdr ordnance is the probably the best value arty in the game and between 400 and 500 range, probably the most common range for me to have arty, while still having good damage at 300 to 400, although it falls off comparatively after 500. I do not understand why the 10pdr ordnance has a damage high of 59.8 and the 12pdr Howitzer only has a damage high of 29, feels like those two should be revered. The 24pdr Howitzer is way better than any other arty in the 300 to 600 range, only the James at 600 range and the Napoleon at 300 range does more than half the damage of the 24pdr.

 I would say the 12pdr howitzer is below average but fine at canister and short shell range. Completely usable as a cheap close support cannon. I think the 20pdr is very good. It maintains decent and reliable damage out to its max range and that range is better than nearly any other option. It is my preferred counter battery cannon. 

The 10pdr ordinance is a very good mid range cannon. It's very lackluster beyond mid range though and the very high damage variance means it can under perform if you get unlucky. Keep in mind that while the 10 pdr ordinance has a much higher accuracy high than the 12pdr howitzer, the 12pdr howitzers base damage is more than double the ordinance's. It's also worth noting that if you care more about firing rate certain cannon start to stand out again. With the way I play I tend to value the initial hit more than the firing rate, though others would very much disagree with me.

The 24pdr is generally unmatched at close range. Much more expensive to keep it firing though and it starts to fall off pretty bad beyond mid shell range.

26 minutes ago, pinsripes3333 said:

Almost all infantry weapons have a max range of 300, regardless of what the weapon card says, which is weird. The Enfield is better than the 1855 or Harpers Ferry and only marginally worse than the 1861 beyond around 200 range.The Lorenz is similarly only slightly worse than the 1855, harpers ferry, and 1861 (and much better than the Enfield 100 and in). The Fayetteville is head and shoulders better than every other infantry weapon.

Basically accurate. It's hard to know how much value to give to the weapon curves for rifles because of the variance in starting damage. For instance both the Tyler Texas and the 1841 Mississippi have very good curves but are held back by their other stats being lower. A lot more data and analysis would be needed, but it seems generally safe to say more expensive = better.

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5 hours ago, pinsripes3333 said:

The 12pdr Howitzer and 20pdr Parrott are terrible. The 10pdr ordnance is the probably the best value arty in the game and between 400 and 500 range, probably the most common range for me to have arty, while still having good damage at 300 to 400, although it falls off comparatively after 500. I do not understand why the 10pdr ordnance has a damage high of 59.8 and the 12pdr Howitzer only has a damage high of 29, feels like those two should be revered. The 24pdr Howitzer is way better than any other arty in the 300 to 600 range, only the James at 600 range and the Napoleon at 300 range does more than half the damage of the 24pdr.

Almost all infantry weapons have a max range of 300, regardless of what the weapon card says, which is weird. The Enfield is better than the 1855 or Harpers Ferry and only marginally worse than the 1861 beyond around 200 range.The Lorenz is similarly only slightly worse than the 1855, harpers ferry, and 1861 (and much better than the Enfield 100 and in). The Fayetteville is head and shoulders better than every other infantry weapon.

You sure about the 12pdr Howitzer and 20pdr Parrott? I use both these two types and the 24pdr Howitzer + 10pdr Parrott as my main armament. I find the Parrotts excellent for disabling enemy artillery while the 12pdr and 24pdr howitzers close support.

Lucky for me i have a full brigade equipped with Fayetteville and Richmond :)

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11 hours ago, pinsripes3333 said:

The 12pdr Howitzer and 20pdr Parrott are terrible. The 10pdr ordnance is the probably the best value arty in the game and between 400 and 500 range, probably the most common range for me to have arty, while still having good damage at 300 to 400, although it falls off comparatively after 500. I do not understand why the 10pdr ordnance has a damage high of 59.8 and the 12pdr Howitzer only has a damage high of 29, feels like those two should be revered. The 24pdr Howitzer is way better than any other arty in the 300 to 600 range, only the James at 600 range and the Napoleon at 300 range does more than half the damage of the 24pdr.

The 12pdr Howitzer is indeed pretty bad.  Worse than the 6pdr Field gun if you ask me.  But the 20pdr Parrott Rifle terrible?  You need to use those again and fix your perception of them.  That, or you're not playing an up-to-date version of the game for one reason or another.

That said, the 24pdr Howitzer and 20pdr Parrott Rifles are the best guns in the game.  It all comes down to a matter of cost and availability, the latter being the real hindrance to just skipping everything in between.

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You sure about the 12pdr Howitzer and 20pdr Parrott? I use both these two types and the 24pdr Howitzer + 10pdr Parrott as my main armament. I find the Parrotts excellent for disabling enemy artillery while the 12pdr and 24pdr howitzers close support.

Lucky for me i have a full brigade equipped with Fayetteville and Richmond

So I thought I messed up my calculations for a second then realized I had them technically right even though I originally misunderstood the weapons stats page which caused me to delete and now remake my original comment, messing up the formatting.

Not sure, just going off the data posted here. According to my calculations, the 12pdr Howitzer does worse damage than the 10pdr Ordinance at anything above ~225 range, and considerably worse at 300 to 600 range. And up close, the Napoleon does considerably more damage 300 and in. The 10pdr Parrott does comparatively good damage above 600, although not as good as the super limited supply Tredegars. However, at this price comparatively good damage means pretty limited damage at range. See below for 20pdr Parrot.

The Richmond seems pretty meh, cost-effective wise. Only slightly better than the Enfield at 200 range and worse from 250 to 300 range and similiar fire rates. Yes, it is better up close than the Enfield, but not significantly better than the Lorenz up close, which is only $22. 

That being said, I have watched your CSA legendary playthrough and have no doubt you are a better player than me. Maybe I really am messing up my calculations or not understanding the data properly.

Quote

The 12pdr Howitzer is indeed pretty bad.  Worse than the 6pdr Field gun if you ask me.  But the 20pdr Parrott Rifle terrible?  You need to use those again and fix your perception of them.  That, or you're not playing an up-to-date version of the game for one reason or another.

That said, the 24pdr Howitzer and 20pdr Parrott Rifles are the best guns in the game.  It all comes down to a matter of cost and availability, the latter being the real hindrance to just skipping everything in between.

The 20pdr Parrott is worse than the 10pdr Ordinance up to 600 range and worse than the James from 600 to 1400 range. It seems the 20pdr Parrott does consistent but pretty negligible damage at all ranges. Considering its price and the fact that it has one of the lowest firerates in the game, it seems bad. 

One other thing I forgot to mention, is that it looks like the type of shot (canister, shell, etc.) does not actually effect the damage and is an animation only. Only range affects base damage. Maybe the different shots have different aoes, Idk.

The above all just represents my personal opinion, biased by my playstyle for what ranges are most important, based solely on the data which OP very generously provided. I should also note that I am somewhat ignoring variance given the amount of volleysfired during a campaign. the 20pdr Parrott is much lower variance than all the 10pdrs.

Edited by pinsripes3333
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Uhh, no?  Are you basing your assumptions on the visuals of the charts only or something?  You do realize the 3-Inch Ordnance Rifle has a maximum damage degradation of 0.36 or so while the 20pdr Parrott Rifle sits at 0.5?  If you directly compare the graphs number-for-number the 20pdr Parrott wins out at every yard, not to mention the 20pdr Parrott also has nearly quadruple the base damage.

And as far as I know, shell type does affect damage.  Otherwise perks wouldn't exist that modify them.

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25 minutes ago, The Soldier said:

Uhh, no?  Are you basing your assumptions on the visuals of the charts only or something?  You do realize the 3-Inch Ordnance Rifle has a maximum damage degradation of 0.36 or so while the 20pdr Parrott Rifle sits at 0.5?  If you directly compare the graphs number-for-number the 20pdr Parrott wins out at every yard, not to mention the 20pdr Parrott also has triple the base damage.

And as far as I know, shell type does affect damage.  Otherwise perks wouldn't exist that modify them.

Yes but 3-inch has a low accuracy of 33 and max accuracy of 260 while the 20pdr Parrott only has a min accuracy of 12.5 and a max accuracy of 52.5. According to the damage calculation given "Weapon damage * Random value between AccuracyLow / 100 and Accuracy High / 100", the 3inch has an average base damage of 33.695 and the 20pdr Parrott has an average base damage of 20.075. So even with the 20pdr's degradation advantage at 200 to 600, the 3inch still does more damage at these ranges. The 3inch has considerably more variance yes, but as I said I was somewhat ignoring that given the large sample you will get over a campaign.

Maybe shell type is the missing ingredient here for why the numbers did not make sense to me, especially the 12pdr Howitzer and 20pdr Parrott being so bad, as according to this data and the above calculation, the only thing that matters is base damage, min accuracy, max accuracy, and range.

Edit: I also did not realize you were the author of the excellent artillery guide (although I probably should have given you name). I''m certainly not claiming to know more than you about artillery. Do you have a solid feel as to why the numbers I have do not match what your in-game and more accurate experience shows at least for the 20pdr? Perhaps playstyles as I did not look at mid to far damages much as I like to wheel my arty just a little behind my infantry and do not do much firing from over 700 range.

Edited by pinsripes3333

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Added shell and canister shot modifiers.

Where the 20pdr shines is that from range ~550 to max range it basically has a degrade of .2. Whereas the 3in drops to nearly 0 at its max range. The wiard, tredegar, james, and whitworth are the only other cannon that come close to matching that consistency but all have their own trade offs. Usually in terms of lower damage or range. Being able to use shell shot out to range 1000 and deal reliable damage at 2000 range is very useful even if the fire rate is slow.

If you're never using your artillery at anything further than 700 range the analysis of which cannon are useful is going to look very different. If you include firing rate the calculations change again. Another user did that kind of analysis and from what I recall the 3in was near the top in terms of dps. I tend to value the initial hit damage more than relying on being able to get off multiple rounds though which is why I didn't add that into my analysis. I would rather maximize my damage in a single volley to increase the chance to break a units morale immediately.

I also think that the huge damage range of the 3in is more a flaw than it might seem if you just look at average damage. Yes it can go very high, but sometimes you get point blank canister doing almost nothing. User preference for consistency versus potential.

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Thank you very much for the extra info. Do you know if the range for each type of ammunition is used is the same range or same proportion for every cannon? If it is the same range or proportion for every canon, do you (or anyone) happen to know what those numbers are? I could not find this info on a quick google search or search of this forum.

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1 hour ago, pandakraut said:

If you're never using your artillery at anything further than 700 range the analysis of which cannon are useful is going to look very different.

Does accuracy improve for continuing to fire at the same target at the same range?

Or am I simply seeing  RNG going to the top of the accuracy potential?

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8 minutes ago, BCH said:

Does accuracy improve for continuing to fire at the same target at the same range?

Or am I simply seeing  RNG going to the top of the accuracy potential?

That's just random chance, there is no damage increase from firing at the same target repeatedly.

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On 6/16/2018 at 11:57 PM, pandakraut said:

Higher elevation gives increased accuracy/damage and morale regeneration.

I believe I have seen early game screen shots with what appear to be contour lines; if so, why were they removed from the maps?

Edited by BCH
spelling correction

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