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Teutonic

RvR - Bringing back a better Flag

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im all for it, but instead of calling it flag, call it "Attack plans for Port X", or "Attack orders for Port x" :D

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I always thought in raids as the pvp alternative to hostility. No pve involved.

But between hostility and flags, which of the two systems is less exploitable?

Old days of flags are being forgotten. Old days when some nations and their allies could conquer docens of ports in a short time because it is very effortless to click on "buy flag".

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4 hours ago, Fenris said:

Buy the flag only to skip hostility grinding? PB in 24 hours again? Uhm no.

Flags were in game, they were not a good feature. Flags should be used for RAIDS, although i don`t know what reward can be given, if RAID is succesful, and no AI shold be involved.

 I agree in 1 point: Make them expensive.

As long ports are useless and not worth conquering, we will not have any sustainable RvR in this project. It has nothing to do with numbers on servers, the boredom in game is the reason for low numbers.

Shoot ships, craft ships is all you can do.

Boring in long terms.

Flags were once one of the best things in this game. Getting to the battle was incredibly fun.

Flags NEED to come back in some form even if its for raids or just races its simply awesome content. Nothing better than the race to Bermuda or carrying 5 flags and having to place them all within an hour across several ports and if we allow them to be traded relay races would be incredible.

@admin BRING BACK FLAGS!

Edited by koiz

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1 hour ago, Bobzillah said:

well in the old days a flag was only 100k .

They are many guys sitting on 100 millions now.

Which would be a resonable price for a flag bought by a clan of several members with millions in their accounts?

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6 hours ago, Intrepido said:

They are many guys sitting on 100 millions now.

Which would be a resonable price for a flag bought by a clan of several members with millions in their accounts?

victory marks could be used instead of just having them sitting captains chest collecting spiderwebs and dust. Cost of the "flag" could depend on portsize and if its shallow/deep water

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The problem with the flag is the abuse that is impossible to solve. 
You can either

  • deny the port battle by purchasing the flag and keeping it if flags are exclusive
  • deny the port battle by placing the flag first if flags are not exclusive
     

Long hostility is sometimes not fun especially if no-one comes to defend, but it serves the purpose: to give defender at least some chance to react. The goal is to not have more port battles but to have more full port battles.

Hostility generation will become a bit more bearable once we improve the PB rewards (already in test builds) by 1) dropping a rare item during port battles 2)giving capturable ports a better crafting bonus. 
 

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13 hours ago, Teutonic said:

 

----------------------------------------------------

ABUSE CASES?

 

 

Fake flags will be a problem in your proposal. If flags are cheap you can set multiple fake port battles, if flags are expensive we will get "cant participate in a port battle" comments.

Hostility requires effort and this effort is the price that eliminates fake flags, if someone is faking a port attack he is actually THERE at sea grinding bots in a battle open forever. 
 

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7 hours ago, Intrepido said:

They are many guys sitting on 100 millions now.

Which would be a resonable price for a flag bought by a clan of several members with millions in their accounts?

well i have so much money i can buy a complete continent :)

my clan can buy the world ...

(oke now i have done it  the percusion will be on my shoulder )

we need better and actual currency numbers not a million but just a thousend

-but i cant buy a bucket of paint....

-or a book i dont have ...yet

Edited by Thonys

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20 minutes ago, admin said:

The problem with the flag is the abuse that is impossible to solve. 
You can either

  • deny the port battle by purchasing the flag and keeping it if flags are exclusive
  • deny the port battle by placing the flag first if flags are not exclusive
     

Long hostility is sometimes not fun especially if no-one comes to defend, but it serves the purpose: to give defender at least some chance to react. The goal is to not have more port battles but to have more full port battles.

Hostility generation will become a bit more bearable once we improve the PB rewards (already in test builds) by 1) dropping a rare item during port battles 2)giving capturable ports a better crafting bonus. 
 

Maybe even drop a paint too, hard port  to capture rarer paint, anything that induces people to want to do something .

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26 minutes ago, admin said:

Fake flags will be a problem in your proposal. If flags are cheap you can set multiple fake port battles, if flags are expensive we will get "cant participate in a port battle" comments.

Hostility requires effort and this effort is the price that eliminates fake flags, if someone is faking a port attack he is actually THERE at sea grinding bots in a battle open forever. 
 

We would have fake portbattles too right now if the population would be there to flip those ports. Multiflips happen and always will happen. The difference between what we had and what we want is, that so called fake flags only result in a port battle the next day. So plenty of time to prepare it. I still prefer any kind of action to happen than none as we have currently.

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17 minutes ago, Nelsons Barrel said:

We would have fake portbattles too right now if the population would be there to flip those ports. 

We will, but to get that port battle you have to risk your ship in the open world by being in a hostility battle which is open to all. You have to send a fake fleet to a real risk even if you never plan to attend the port battle. 

With a flag you just buy it and wait it out while enemy searches for you wasting time.

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1 hour ago, admin said:

The problem with the flag is the abuse that is impossible to solve. 
You can either

  • deny the port battle by purchasing the flag and keeping it if flags are exclusive
  • deny the port battle by placing the flag first if flags are not exclusive

Flags could have an expiration timer

Maybe only clan officers can purchase flags?

 

I think you should pull a flag and then fight a small AI battle near the desired port (like current hostility) to flip the port. Which ever captain has the flag must survive the battle.

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14 hours ago, Teutonic said:


2. Maintenance - I would adjust prices of maintenance, but still keep it. I would propose lowering the Time maintenance to 400k (so the maintenance is 500k and not 600k with a timer)
3. BR limits

Since we are on this topic something that has really bother me is the maintance cost of ports right now.  I don't mind paying the 600K a day for a port, what I don't like is if I make say 2 million I have to pay 1 million tax's (inlcuded is the 600K port cost)  If I make 5 million I pay 2.5 million in tax's. It seems when you break that 1 million mark you get hit big time with taxes and it makes it where it's not very profitable after all.  If we have one profitable port it should help pay for the not profitable ports we have timers on..  Cause we have enemy ports on our coast line folks don't use the other ports we have to keep timers on and they make very little profit.  So this makes it very hard for a nation/clan to support timers to keep a coast line secure while fighting a war.  

While I get you want to make it a money sink, but if it was a small clan with just a few ports.  I'm not going to count all the shallow ports we hold with no timers cause we want folks to flip those, but most other clans in our nation couldn't hold the ports we have and would of dropped lost them a long time ago.  If I'm going to be paying over 50% tax's on something that makes a little profit than I should be getting something more than just a timer.   Remove the tax creep and keep to static port cost or give us something extra like more forts, allowed adjustment of BR"s for the port or something.

Now for BR's why are so many ports in the 2500-5000 BR range for Deep water?  We use to have 25 vs 25 port battles all the time, but right now one of the biggest complaints I heard since going US from Russia is, "If I helped grind than why can't I get into the PB too?"   Well cause we have to bring our "A" time to win the PB cause we are limited to 5-7 or 10ish players at max to win some very important ports.  An small elite clan can hold off a big nation from getting there ports back simply by keeping to the PB and fighting with low numbers.  Many of these ports should have higher BR's cause folks want to actually fight in the PB not have it limited to a few elite teams every time.  While all the action seems to mainly be out side in the screening flight now a days.  If your going to keep the BR low for many of the ports than you need to put some restrictions on them.  Like making ports 4th rate and below only or other restrictions. This would allow more ships in instead of the meta a few 1st rates and what ever you can fill it with. 

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I know I hate grinding hostility grinding but at the very least its harder to exploit then flags.

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4 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Since we are on this topic something that has really bother me is the maintance cost of ports right now.  I don't mind paying the 600K a day for a port, what I don't like is if I make say 2 million I have to pay 1 million tax's (inlcuded is the 600K port cost)  If I make 5 million I pay 2.5 million in tax's. It seems when you break that 1 million mark you get hit big time with taxes and it makes it where it's not very profitable after all.  If we have one profitable port it should help pay for the not profitable ports we have timers on..  Cause we have enemy ports on our coast line folks don't use the other ports we have to keep timers on and they make very little profit.  So this makes it very hard for a nation/clan to support timers to keep a coast line secure while fighting a war.  

While I get you want to make it a money sink, but if it was a small clan with just a few ports.  I'm not going to count all the shallow ports we hold with no timers cause we want folks to flip those, but most other clans in our nation couldn't hold the ports we have and would of dropped lost them a long time ago.  If I'm going to be paying over 50% tax's on something that makes a little profit than I should be getting something more than just a timer.   Remove the tax creep and keep to static port cost or give us something extra like more forts, allowed adjustment of BR"s for the port or something.

Now for BR's why are so many ports in the 2500-5000 BR range for Deep water?  We use to have 25 vs 25 port battles all the time, but right now one of the biggest complaints I heard since going US from Russia is, "If I helped grind than why can't I get into the PB too?"   Well cause we have to bring our "A" time to win the PB cause we are limited to 5-7 or 10ish players at max to win some very important ports.  An small elite clan can hold off a big nation from getting there ports back simply by keeping to the PB and fighting with low numbers.  Many of these ports should have higher BR's cause folks want to actually fight in the PB not have it limited to a few elite teams every time.  While all the action seems to mainly be out side in the screening flight now a days.  If your going to keep the BR low for many of the ports than you need to put some restrictions on them.  Like making ports 4th rate and below only or other restrictions. This would allow more ships in instead of the meta a few 1st rates and what ever you can fill it with. 

I made up my mind quite a long ago about the lack of changes in this game.

Try to think to the development of naval action in terms of resources: shrinking the game features in order to adapt it to a low population (i.e. allowing small numbers in PBs and avoiding easy multi flips) requires less investments than adding/changing feautures in order to try to attract more players in the game.

Unless new money comes in, it would be anti-economic (or at least risky) for game-labs try to go down the second path.

So, basically, my impression is that really new "big" changes will be possible either after successful DLCs or after the final launch of the game. For now, I think we can have just little tweaks here and there.

So - in short - it's better saving good proposals for better times.

Edited by victor

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12 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Since we are on this topic something that has really bother me is the maintance cost of ports right now.  I don't mind paying the 600K a day for a port, what I don't like is if I make say 2 million I have to pay 1 million tax's (inlcuded is the 600K port cost) 

You say that 1million profit out of nothing for doing nothing is to less? Just sounds like the people selling repairs for 4k doing 300-400% profit and still complain....

Just because some people own cash at the server limit doesn't mean the reward has to be in that range as well. There are a lot of people that don't even move below a 1mill reward in that game and that's just fail.

Cash for dmg kills the game :P

Edited by z4ys

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with a good pop hosti would be no problem... atm its all aboit the population except pvp events (broken) and safezones (half protected half not makes for stupjd situations for new players)

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43 minutes ago, z4ys said:

You say that 1million profit out of nothing for doing nothing is to less? Just sounds like the people selling repairs for 4k doing 300-400% profit and still complain....

Just because some people own cash at the server limit doesn't mean the reward has to be in that range as well. There are a lot of people that don't even move below a 1mill reward in that game and that's just fail.

Cash for dmg kills the game :P

The problem is we aren't making a profit at all.  We have about 3 million port cost a day right now with all the ports we are holding for the Nation cause there is no other clan that could do it.  We pay about 2 million a day in port cost after the income.  We are not making 300-400% profit we are loosing money every day.  What little profits we do make is pretty much paid 50% in tax's so you don't really take home what you think you do and I assume this is a problem with other nations ports that have high profit ports too.   If your loosing 2 million a day that is bad business.  The only reason one of our ports even remotely makes money is cause folks do trade out of that port cause it's not any where close on the Coastline (it's a shallow water port) so they can actually make trade runs and do econ there.   

But like you said just cause some folks own millions doesn't mean we should expect every one.  We have one clan member with 200 million, why should he use his hard earned money to support the ports?  They should be some what reasonablely profitable.  Even if we dropped all the none timer ports we have we will still not make a profit as long as we are holding ports that have timers to protect them from being totally lost on the coast line.  I'll be bluntly honest and we have talked about dropping all ports on the US coastline cause right now with the game numbers down and half the server camping US coast line what is the point to even own ports out of the protected zone?   We don't do it cause we know once we do that it will be even harder to get them back and well the same folks 4 nations camping the coast line wont' go anywhere else cause now each of them could have there own ports along it.

I bet you if we did a full wipe with the current system and folks not having millions stocked up you will see a lot of ports drop with no timers.  The reason we don't see folks attacking those open timer ports is cause why would I want a port that some one else didn't want either?  The port cost put burdon on smaller groups of active players while it doesn't phase some of the old school clan/nations set up with banks of money right now, but you wipe that and start over I bet you see a lot of those ports drop fast.  It's old money keeping a lot of those ports owned not new money.

 

Oh and cash for damage is how I make most of my money. I rarely do trade or econ runs. The other way I make a little money to play for my econ and such is by sail of cannons and ships. I send the none perks ones I make to the market when I'm crafting a new ship.   I rarely have any more than 5-10 million me. I'm burned out of doing the stupid trade runs that some folks love so I don't make a large profit in my own trade/econs.

Edited by Sir Texas Sir

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13 minutes ago, rediii said:

with a good pop hosti would be no problem... atm its all aboit the population except pvp events (broken) and safezones (half protected half not makes for stupjd situations for new players)

The other problem is the missions are so stacked on the defenders side or the better PvPers.   Once you start loosing players in a fight on either side you can go from 97% to 0% in one fight.  We actually had a port to 97% and than lost a good part of our fleet when defenders dropped in and pretty much gave up on the hostility cause it would take to long to sail back out there with new ships.  So unless you flip the port and get it done before you get a defenders reaction than all your work is gone in a flash after a few guys get sunk.   While this is good and bad, I think you take to big a hit on PVP kills compared to how much grinding you have to do one some very big BR ports to flip it.   

Cause of the safezone/capital farming our numbers are even lower cause folks just don't have the moral to fight back when a lost can set you back so big and make all your work be for nothing.  A lot of the other nations don't see it cause they aren't working with so many newer players or casuals but it's something I see every day in US Nation.  Safe zones are not safe zones they are GANK FARM ZONES only.   Capitals honestly need to be true safe zones (I'm not talking about the whole coast line, keep reinforcement zones as is, but capitals need to have a bigger safe zones with the old rules. Where only defenders can attack in the zones and attackers can't.   People need to be able to do there little missions and level up if they want not be constantly farmed over and over by so call elite veterans that refuse to fight any one else.

Every game I have played on that has multi users had safe (true safe zones) around the starting capital regions that no other nations could start a fight in.  We need this in game for certain nations if you want to keep an active healthy growing population.  I say some nations cause yes we can still have the hard core mode nations that don't get either.  It's a players choose to pick those hard core nations, but if they pick an easy nation it should not mean, "Just more easier for them to farm you."

 

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My 2 cents

Flag price need to be dynamic and derived from the total amount of gold on server this way it will never be to cheap nor to expensive.

Fake flags will then cost a significant amount of money and players will therefore think twice before faking an attack. Thus not removing fakes but limiting. Somehow i think in a sandbox that fake attacks are ok/Part of the game but needs moderation ofc.

 

 

 

 

 

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some people just have stupid amounts of money so there will never be a good balance on that front.

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2 hours ago, admin said:

dropping a rare item during port battles 2)giving capturable ports a better crafting bonus. 

Can you please stop introducing over and over same features, that were already in game at some point, but abandoned again?

Thanks.

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1 hour ago, rediii said:

with a good pop hosti would be no problem

Low population is a symptom to, what everybody calls "lack of content".

It is not the source, but REACTION to a game that has not much to offer, but calling itself "sandbox" or "MMO".

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How about a flag is used ... it has to be planted in front of the targetted port, if planting is succesfull a PB happens the next day.

You could call it a 'raid', perhaps even an instance in which you get the opportunity to destroy forts and towers (if no defenders show up) in preparation for the PB the next day?

 

The flag could be announced (as it was before) and therefore the defenders can try to intercept.

Maybe the flag has to survive a certain amount of time in that 'raid'-instance. The planting could happen in a farther/random distance than it was before.

Maybe the attackers can see the swords, where they have to plant the flag, while the defenders can only see it if attackers have entered the instance?

 

Sure, you can buy a fake flag, simply activate it to mess with the defenders, but can't you do that now aswell (by only raising hostility to 25% and then doing something else)?

 

As for low population : I feel like it is a symptom, not the cause (or atleast not entirely, it doesn't help to try and test things that's for sure). There are numerous reasons for low playercount, which are all being discussed in several threads.

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