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Mrgoldstein

[Caribbean] the state of pvp

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Looking at the number of ships who managed to get an assist on Brit side I would guess they were all scared to engage close, which is kind of common for most Brit Captains

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8 minutes ago, Mrgoldstein said:

Sweet jesus how can the brits loose a battle with such odds..

Really though. Looking at screenshots like this makes me think there might be something severely wrong with battles. It's like one side just runs and sink whoever gets close without ever turning to engage, repairing what little damage they recieve and that's how people win these odds.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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49 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Really though. Looking at screenshots like this makes me think there might be something severely wrong with battles. It's like one side just runs and sink whoever gets close without ever turning to engage, repairing what little damage they recieve and that's how people win these odds.

You can't fix stupidity with patch.

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2 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

You can't fix stupidity with patch.

Well as always there is two points of view. You call it stupidity I call it lack of experience. 

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12 minutes ago, Palatinose said:

Well as always there is two points of view. You call it stupidity I call it lack of experience. 

It's both factors together combined often. If you have a player with 4k hours in NA dying like that, it's also lack of experience? There are many things I would call lack of experience, but when players cry that they died in a big ship to a smaller one or that a massive fleet died to a few players, they want Devs to give them the "win" button, because how is that possible?

On the British side I see at least 3 experienced players. - PaladinFX, Chiggy and Swakara. 

Edited by Banished Privateer

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4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Really though. Looking at screenshots like this makes me think there might be something severely wrong with battles. It's like one side just runs and sink whoever gets close without ever turning to engage, repairing what little damage they recieve and that's how people win these odds.

Its not that there is anything wrong with battles, but the difference is you have an small organised force fighting a pick up group. I'm not sure where this battle was, but I guess it was in or close to the green zone of the British nation. A small group of players decide to go there to farm PvP marks, they are all on TS, they all decide what type of ships they will bring and what mods to load, they have an attack plan and a escape plan if things start going wrong. They turn up and start the battle usually by jumping in on some person fighting AI in the green zone or they tempt someone to tag them just outside the zone or even still in the zone so there are no AI reinforcements. The defending side start jumping in to help usually in whatever ship they have at hand, they enter the battle not as a single unit but wherever they can so they are spread out, most are not on TS and even if they are most will not follow instructions, there is no designated leader. The attackers kite and pick off the defenders one by one when they catch a ship out of position and if the defending force do become organised they just run and as all their ships are likely rigged to have the same best point of sail they can stay together as they run while the chasers get strung out in different ships, which gives them the chance to isolate one again and get a kill.

When you couple this with the fact that most are afraid to lose their ships and will turn and fire at range rather than chase and close them down, it is easy to see why you get screenshots like this. What these screenshots fail also to show is when people joined the battle and where and how the whole battle unfolded.

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51 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Its not that there is anything wrong with battles, but the difference is you have an small organised force fighting a pick up group. I'm not sure where this battle was, but I guess it was in or close to the green zone of the British nation. A small group of players decide to go there to farm PvP marks, they are all on TS, they all decide what type of ships they will bring and what mods to load, they have an attack plan and a escape plan if things start going wrong. They turn up and start the battle usually by jumping in on some person fighting AI in the green zone or they tempt someone to tag them just outside the zone or even still in the zone so there are no AI reinforcements. The defending side start jumping in to help usually in whatever ship they have at hand, they enter the battle not as a single unit but wherever they can so they are spread out, most are not on TS and even if they are most will not follow instructions, there is no designated leader. The attackers kite and pick off the defenders one by one when they catch a ship out of position and if the defending force do become organised they just run and as all their ships are likely rigged to have the same best point of sail they can stay together as they run while the chasers get strung out in different ships, which gives them the chance to isolate one again and get a kill.

When you couple this with the fact that most are afraid to lose their ships and will turn and fire at range rather than chase and close them down, it is easy to see why you get screenshots like this. What these screenshots fail also to show is when people joined the battle and where and how the whole battle unfolded.

I'm sure you've never seen organized KPR defense with 15-25 players all on TS with designed ships for defending "safe zone", not random builds whatever they can bring.

They learn how to make safe zone "safe" but they will never learn how to fight equal fights, because ganks is most of their combats. You learn and gain real experience by fighting equal fights or facing the odds against you.

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4 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

I'm sure you've never seen organized KPR defense with 15-25 players all on TS with designed ships for defending "safe zone", not random builds whatever they can bring.

They learn how to make safe zone "safe" but they will never learn how to fight equal fights, because ganks is most of their combats. You learn and gain real experience by fighting equal fights or facing the odds against you.

I see quite regularly the attackers asking for and equal fight once they see they will be outnumbered by experienced players, but they never seem to have that problem when they jump some poor guy doing AI fleets in the green zone.

I do not see why people keep asking for equal fights, in war each side will use whatever advantage they have to win, if I have available 10 extra ships to attack you why should I hold back. As he said the fight was initially 5v2 and they joined, but then more Brits joined and I am sure if they had more they too would have joined. This is a tactic that the Spaniards have used quite effectively around Belize, they start a battle then as defenders jump in to help they wait to see what sort of force the defenders have and then jump in with the rest of their fleet. If you want equal fights then do not come to the greenzone looking for them.

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4 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I see quite regularly the attackers asking for and equal fight once they see they will be outnumbered by experienced players, but they never seem to have that problem when they jump some poor guy doing AI fleets in the green zone.

I do not see why people keep asking for equal fights, in war each side will use whatever advantage they have to win, if I have available 10 extra ships to attack you why should I hold back. As he said the fight was initially 5v2 and they joined, but then more Brits joined and I am sure if they had more they too would have joined. This is a tactic that the Spaniards have used quite effectively around Belize, they start a battle then as defenders jump in to help they wait to see what sort of force the defenders have and then jump in with the rest of their fleet. If you want equal fights then do not come to the greenzone looking for them.

I'm not forcing you to have equal fights, I'm just stating a fact that you will be shit in PvP if you will never fight equal fights. That's how players with 4-6k hours die around Jamaica all the time in these ganks.

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48 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

I'm not forcing you to have equal fights, I'm just stating a fact that you will be shit in PvP if you will never fight equal fights. That's how players with 4-6k hours die around Jamaica all the time in these ganks.

Sorry I disagree, not that fighting in equal fights will give you greater experience, but why experienced players die round Jamaica all the time. In most of these fights where you see 14v4, you still see very experienced players on the larger side getting killed and I believe this is because although they have superior numbers they are not coordinated and what the fight boils down to in the end is probably 2 or 3 experienced players in the 14 facing 4 experienced players, with the added distraction of them trying to get some form of discipline among the rest and having to alter the tactics to try and save some random that will not follow instructions.

I bet if you as an experienced player were with the 14 randoms against 4 experienced players would struggle if they would not listen to you. You would get frustrated telling people what they should do and in the end you would either succumb to targeted fire from the 4 players or you would have to disengage. Dont you see how the game had developed over time, you get a group of good PvP'ers in a nation like Britain who get frustrated by what is happening and decide to leave to another nation, where they form a group and return to British waters to do the same thing to the Brits that frustrated them in the first place.

I am not an experienced PvP player even though I have over 3k hours in game, but when I join these battles I try and follow the instructions of experienced players and I can see where others are not following instructions or leaving themselves exposed.

But anyway this is the wrong topic to be discussing this.

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11 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Sorry I disagree, not that fighting in equal fights will give you greater experience, but why experienced players die round Jamaica all the time. In most of these fights where you see 14v4, you still see very experienced players on the larger side getting killed and I believe this is because although they have superior numbers they are not coordinated and what the fight boils down to in the end is probably 2 or 3 experienced players in the 14 facing 4 experienced players, with the added distraction of them trying to get some form of discipline among the rest and having to alter the tactics to try and save some random that will not follow instructions.

I bet if you as an experienced player were with the 14 randoms against 4 experienced players would struggle if they would not listen to you. You would get frustrated telling people what they should do and in the end you would either succumb to targeted fire from the 4 players or you would have to disengage. Dont you see how the game had developed over time, you get a group of good PvP'ers in a nation like Britain who get frustrated by what is happening and decide to leave to another nation, where they form a group and return to British waters to do the same thing to the Brits that frustrated them in the first place.

I am not an experienced PvP player even though I have over 3k hours in game, but when I join these battles I try and follow the instructions of experienced players and I can see where others are not following instructions or leaving themselves exposed.

But anyway this is the wrong topic to be discussing this.

I just ignore inexperienced players, ram them or push through them my own way, as long as they don't shoot me, it's ok. They still shoot enemies. I give you a challenge, get 5 "organized" players and coordinated as you say that, I get only 3 + 14 random Brits. Let's test that in practice, ok?

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1 hour ago, Archaos said:

But I take it you all came together to the green zone looking for a fight? Its not as if you mobilized at short notice from the nearest French port when they called for help.

You are correct in the discipline of command, in many of the fights I experienced in the green zone as coastguard too many of the defenders rely on sheer weight of numbers and once one of the attackers gets badly wounded and is unable to escape they all descend like a pack of dogs to get their shots in to get the assist and in the process ignore the other enemy, crash into each other and hand out friendly fire liberally all for the possibility of getting maybe 1 pvp mark.

When a good group gathers for the coastguard the result is usually that the attackers run or get totally wrecked. But even in the case where they get wrecked it would not be worth posting a screenshot as a good battle as it would show something like 20 vs 4 which would be nothing to boast about.

But its good to hear the story from your side.

In fact not really, 2 of us (Tiz and me) were waiting for some Americans who had attacked a player at Bridgtown... And nothing came out if it...  We were chilling on the TS and talking about the lack of fight lately... Then Amiral Lou (we're in the same clan) told us he and Orient needed help. he had already sank a brit in another fight around the British waters and was low on repairs.

So we came back to FR and then TP to la Navasse and Aster logged on the TS at that time and we went together.

 

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3 minutes ago, Louis Garneray said:

In fact not really, 2 of us (Tiz and me) were waiting for some Americans who had attacked a player at Bridgtown... And nothing came out if it...  We were chilling on the TS and talking about the lack of fight lately... Then Amiral Lou (we're in the same clan) told us he and Orient needed help. he had already sank a brit in another fight around the British waters and was low on repairs.

So we came back to FR and then TP to la Navasse and Aster logged on the TS at that time and we went together.

 

Hey, don't forget all gankers have a fleet of 15 ships waiting to ambush you and everything is a bait and trap.

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Still looks shady. There's just no way you should be able to lose such a clear mismatch. If there is such a gap between skill and coordination then it's clear that there really is no such thing as a gank, as a 15v7 can be won with minimal loss using some kind of strategy that probably involved running/kiting + repairing multiple times.

I'll leave it there but battles like this sends a message to the new/inexperienced and in some way veterans that 3:1 odds are almost necessary to ensure a full victory. The sweet spot for an :even: battle is 2:1 odds as defender since it's so common to see those won.

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I'll tell you what it is because I experience this almost every day. I enjoy sailing 5th rates and every time I become the prime target of these brits/americans/insert nation here because they go, not for the most dangerous, but what they see as the weakest target. While I'm trying to dodge the balls/chain the really dangerous ships are raking in the kills or are having some forms of 1v1s.

Trying to focus down Aster's indefatigable cost them the fight (I'm guessing as I wasn't there).

Edited by Le Raf Boom

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9 hours ago, Louis Garneray said:

Thanks for the fun GB.

1783BC589F90651A1B8E12C58B11F798F343CFA0

There is a point where these player skill over matches, that only look like lopsided battles, become so typical they are no longer worth noting as truly great battles. WO, Blanc and ALOHA have hit that mark farming less skilled players at national capitals. It's probably time you guys think about breaking up the band and spreading some of that skill around. In NA player skill > gear. Player skill + gear > than pugs in numbers. 

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The skilled players usually leave their nation due to "experienced players" with 4k+ hours dying in every battle like idiots (Swakara and Chiggy are the only decent players in that battle, rest idk). When you again and again have to babysit those guys in battle ("look at the map", "stay together", "don't sail downwind", "repair early") it's no fun anymore.

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3 hours ago, Archaos said:

I see quite regularly the attackers asking for and equal fight once they see they will be outnumbered by experienced players, but they never seem to have that problem when they jump some poor guy doing AI fleets in the green zone.

I do not see why people keep asking for equal fights, in war each side will use whatever advantage they have to win, if I have available 10 extra ships to attack you why should I hold back. As he said the fight was initially 5v2 and they joined, but then more Brits joined and I am sure if they had more they too would have joined. This is a tactic that the Spaniards have used quite effectively around Belize, they start a battle then as defenders jump in to help they wait to see what sort of force the defenders have and then jump in with the rest of their fleet. If you want equal fights then do not come to the greenzone looking for them.

This sums up the state of the game nicely.

I have seen many of the so called elite pvp gankers crying like bitches when they finally get caught by revenge fleet. Quite happy to slaughter noobs all day, finally run out of luck and they all cry like bitches complaining about lack of a fair fight. Even some of the best players out there cant help turning into cry baby when the luck finally runs out.

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2 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

I just ignore inexperienced players, ram them or push through them my own way, as long as they don't shoot me, it's ok. They still shoot enemies. I give you a challenge, get 5 "organized" players and coordinated as you say that, I get only 3 + 14 random Brits. Let's test that in practice, ok?

See even here you adjust the terms to what you feel you could handle, which would be a 5v3+14 randoms. What such battles normally are are 5v1+14 randoms although some of the randoms may be experienced but you are not used to fighting alongside or are not on TS. You go into the battle most of the time not knowing who you will be with and what experience they have.

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3 minutes ago, Archaos said:

 See even here you adjust the terms to what you feel you could handle, which would be a 5v3+14 randoms. What such battles normally are are 5v1+14 randoms although some of the randoms may be experienced but you are not used to fighting alongside or are not on TS. You go into the battle most of the time not knowing who you will be with and what experience they have.

I don't adjust any terms. On screenshot posted by French, you see 3 experienced players on British side, I named them above. Did you miss that? We can make it 5 vs 3 + 11 if that looks better for you

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24 minutes ago, Batman said:

The skilled players usually leave their nation due to "experienced players" with 4k+ hours dying in every battle like idiots (Swakara and Chiggy are the only decent players in that battle, rest idk). When you again and again have to babysit those guys in battle ("look at the map", "stay together", "don't sail downwind", "repair early") it's no fun anymore.

 The Free Nation Of Putanelle is the solution 😜

i.e.   only fight with those who you know will not fuck up. 

 

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Just now, Banished Privateer said:

I don't adjust any terms. On screenshot posted by French, you see 3 experienced players on British side, I named them above. Did you miss that? We can make it 5 vs 3 + 11 if that looks better for you

Yes but the 3 experienced British players may not know each other or be on TS together is what I am trying to point out. If you remember in the fleet practice the other day where you and Martinm joined what was originally planned as a match between SLRN and BCC, you got sunk relatively early because you were not coordinated with the BCC players who were on the same team as you, you and Martinm stuck together while the rest were elsewhere allowing some of us to focus fire you down. I realise that was fleet practice and thus you probably did not take it as serious as you would an OW battle, but it shows how lack of coordination and communication makes a weaker team.

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