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Mrgoldstein

[Caribbean] the state of pvp

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50 minutes ago, Bach said:

There is a point where these player skill over matches, that only look like lopsided battles, become so typical they are no longer worth noting as truly great battles. WO, Blanc and ALOHA have hit that mark farming less skilled players at national capitals. It's probably time you guys think about breaking up the band and spreading some of that skill around. In NA player skill > gear. Player skill + gear > than pugs in numbers. 

That's kind of funny... We are looking for content on a server when at our time of gaming there is between 120 an 150 players. We don't really have the choice.  By reading your comment it sounds as it was a super easy fight for us. Almost all of us where close to sinking at one point or another just because of the number of guns firing at us.

Also as for spreading the skill around as you say, it's not that easy. I'm not sure everybody is ready to pay to move to another nation for the love of our enemy. And a move will certainly not guaranty that the new friends will accept with joy and go with eagerness learn the skills... Our ex-leader Pit moved to the British land a few months ago and it didn't change anything.

So with the numbers on the server right now we can't be picky and our only hope is to see the next patch arrive and a renewed interest for the game by the better players.

 

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1 minute ago, Archaos said:

Yes but the 3 experienced British players may not know each other or be on TS together is what I am trying to point out. If you remember in the fleet practice the other day where you and Martinm joined what was originally planned as a match between SLRN and BCC, you got sunk relatively early because you were not coordinated with the BCC players who were on the same team as you, you and Martinm stuck together while the rest were elsewhere allowing some of us to focus fire you down. I realise that was fleet practice and thus you probably did not take it as serious as you would an OW battle, but it shows how lack of coordination and communication makes a weaker team.

All of the Brits mentioned use comms and you see them sitting on Brit TS in KPR Defense or whatever they call it.

I died on Fleet Practice only because I didn't use any hull repairs for 40-50 minutes, I could repair 4 times and be still nice sailing and cool fighting. BCC fleet chased 2 ships, that was a huge mistake, there was no coordination in BCC fleet. Entire fleet chasing 2 ships while SLRN fleet was chasing me and martin, was just silly. I also killed 2-3 enemy ships (Battle Report said I should get 30 PvP marks). I play often without comms/voice and have no big issues if I play with experienced players. 

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22 minutes ago, Archaos said:

See even here you adjust the terms to what you feel you could handle, which would be a 5v3+14 randoms. What such battles normally are are 5v1+14 randoms although some of the randoms may be experienced but you are not used to fighting alongside or are not on TS. You go into the battle most of the time not knowing who you will be with and what experience they have.

Should we provide a TS for our opponents every time we get in a battle?

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Just now, Louis Garneray said:

Should we provide a TS for our opponents every time we get in a battle?

no but repairs should be limited to a realistic standard, you shouldn't be able to repair your ships health 2x over in a course of a single battle.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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1 minute ago, Banished Privateer said:

All of the Brits mentioned use comms and you see them sitting on Brit TS in KPR Defense or whatever they call it.

I died on Fleet Practice only because I didn't use any hull repairs for 40-50 minutes, I could repair 4 times and be still nice sailing and cool fighting. BCC fleet chased 2 ships, that was a huge mistake, there was no coordination in BCC fleet. Entire fleet chasing 2 ships while SLRN fleet was chasing me and martin, was just silly. I also killed 2-3 enemy ships (Battle Report said I should get 30 PvP marks). I play often without comms/voice and have no big issues if I play with experienced players. 

You make my point exactly, the difference between organised group and a random pick-up group. 

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Just now, Archaos said:

You make my point exactly, the difference between organised group and a random pick-up group. 

Well, you keep saying that organized PvP small groups win because they use comms and enemy don't use comms. Me + Vile fought 8 US recently, we didn't use comms, US players used comms. We sank most of them, rest run away. Maybe it's opposite?

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1 minute ago, Louis Garneray said:

Should we provide a TS for our opponents every time we get in a battle?

I have no issue with what you did in the battle, it is a valid way to get content in the current game. I originally pointed out what I thought may have happened in the battle screenshot that was posted and you replied with how it was from your side.

The Brits are not very organised as I am sure would be the case in most nations green zones, but now and again an organised group responds to the incursions and in such cases the battle outcome is different, but still would not be worth posting as 20v5 win for the 20 would not be something to boast about.

Keep coming to KPR green zone and hopefully we become organised enough that it is not worth your while.

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7 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

It's both factors together combined often. If you have a player with 4k hours in NA dying like that, it's also lack of experience? There are many things I would call lack of experience, but when players cry that they died in a big ship to a smaller one or that a massive fleet died to a few players, they want Devs to give them the "win" button, because how is that possible?

 

4 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

They learn how to make safe zone "safe" but they will never learn how to fight equal fights, because ganks is most of their combats. You learn and gain real experience by fighting equal fights or facing the odds against you.

You say it yourself. THAT'Sexperience and nothing else.

 

Concerning the "real" british coastguard: they are the prime example of the casual veteran. They want PvP, though only in a controlled environment, without a long journey. If people are killed in front of KPR, these guys usually don't belong to this part. 

So the discussion will always be the same. Hunters or "seal clubbers" go to the capital, willing to fight. I think I'm speaking for the majority of this gourp when I say they will take nearly every fight. The vets of the coastguard know the players of course. But instead of sailing out and giving a decent fight, they report to their friends. In the meanwhile the hunter has jumped an OW AI fight and perhaps manages to sink a newby or "seal". When the fight is done, coastguard stands aoutside and chases him down. 

I understand them somehow: coastguarding with friends is the most chilled pvp ever. You fight good players, but you can always leave or not engage, have fun in every battle because you will always win.And if you tell them exactly that, you get told: you ganked first or you only come here to seal club and when you fight veterans you only run. 

The fir/fir 18pd/12pd Belle Poule cancer meta wasn't invented because it's so much fun to only manage to kill one and then run for an hour. WElcome to Naval Action

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Small groups win because they use the guise of being outnumbered to run away defensively, which initiates a chase where only few ships can actually keep up in a straight line. To get parallel with a ship running required you to not turn and you take loads of damage this way. Damage that you are not going to pay back in full the same way a group can focus fire you quickly to get you to back up (which amounts to many minutes having to catch back up)

The reason why this happens is not because coms or even that much skill. It's just padding ships with as many repairs as possible and not engaging the chasers, but let them engage you and return fire with your smaller group while the bigger group still struggles to keep up (now with limited chain this is easier than ever)

This use to be not so much of an issue when we had old chain because you could counter their constant repairs with chain to slow them down and force them to fight. Now you just run and hardly worry about repairing sails. I mean it's not rocket science. We knew this when limiting chain that repairs would have to be limited too. Nothing has come around.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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3 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Small groups win because they use the guise of being outnumbered to run away defensively, which initiates a chase where only few ships can actually keep up in a straight line. To get parallel with a ship running required you to not turn and you take loads of damage this way. Damage that you are not going to pay back in full the same way a group can focus fire you quickly to get you to back up (which amounts to many minutes having to catch back up)

The reason why this happens is not because coms or even that much skill. It's just padding ships with as many repairs as possible and not engaging the chasers, but let them engage you and return fire with your smaller group while the bigger group still struggles to keep up (now with limited chain this is easier than ever)

This use to be not so much of an issue when we had old chain because you could counter their constant repairs with chain to slow them down and force them to fight. Now you just run and hardly worry about repairing sails. 

All of this happens because players don't understand the chase game and wind in battle.

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Just now, Banished Privateer said:

All of this happens because players don't understand the chase game and wind in battle.

Anyone who's been in a running fight knows the only thing you can do is chain and ram upwind. One of those is likely to be suicide, the other isn't possible anymore.
Yet people still think 10 repairs a battle is normal and balanced. sigh

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I  don't think you need to be on coms to win or loose, you just need to know where your ship should be before its to late.  Most people wont pull out of harms way soon enough, and they wont close in for kill when the time is right.  Coms helps but it don't beat common sense or basic awareness of where you should be. Most the British defeats are quite simply people allowing themselves to get picked off one by one without supporting each other or staying close together. Instead they get sucked into their own little battles and sunk one at time. Not always but I seen it happen. If you have superior fire power you need to make it count rather than spreading it out all over the map.

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44 minutes ago, Louis Garneray said:

That's kind of funny... We are looking for content on a server when at our time of gaming there is between 120 an 150 players. We don't really have the choice.  By reading your comment it sounds as it was a super easy fight for us. Almost all of us where close to sinking at one point or another just because of the number of guns firing at us.

Also as for spreading the skill around as you say, it's not that easy. I'm not sure everybody is ready to pay to move to another nation for the love of our enemy. And a move will certainly not guaranty that the new friends will accept with joy and go with eagerness learn the skills... Our ex-leader Pit moved to the British land a few months ago and it didn't change anything.

So with the numbers on the server right now we can't be picky and our only hope is to see the next patch arrive and a renewed interest for the game by the better players.

 

I didn't mean to imply it was easy. Just that the outcome has become a frequent posting.  It's obvious that the skilled players in NA have segregated themselves from the nations that new players typically join. I'm sure there is probably a rational for this social stratification. But if it is to be then it's probably better for the game if newer players match newer players and skilled players match skilled in some way. Farming of capitals is becoming the only thing done for non RvR PvP.  It is a sand box game so we can't completely fault the devs. We are supposed to control most of this.  In the current game player skill is paramount. I like that. But there is a responsibility to that in a sand box.

For example: the current meta speed Bellona or Aggy.  With a lot of PvP marks and know how we can get them up near 15 knots. This piece of gear can now outgun what can match its speed and out run what can out gun it. In the hands of a skilled player this ship can jump into a 3v15 and not really be at any great risk. If you can peel off some kills from the pack great. If it gets to hot you extend away and repair or just leave. On the face of it it looks like a Bellona in a lopsided battle. But in reality the risk levels are never any higher than the experienced captain wants them to be.  It could be 3v25 and unless the other team has matching experienced players in similar gear it's not any greater risk. In fact the other 22 guys are likely in their way if not coordinating. Meanwhile those 22 really aren't learning much.

This is why I say spreading around the player skill levels might liven up the map a bit.  As good as that battle you posted looks I would wager it's got the opposing team thinking their efforts are futile. Leading to the growing popular "lack of content" desperation tactics.

Edited by Bach
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5 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Well, you keep saying that organized PvP small groups win because they use comms and enemy don't use comms. Me + Vile fought 8 US recently, we didn't use comms, US players used comms. We sank most of them, rest run away. Maybe it's opposite?

I never said comms was the only issue, I also said about people obeying instructions and knowing what to do, the fact that people join in wrong types of ships etc. There are many factors that make a team successful not just comms.

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oh look its Mr "I didn't go France to sink US players" Raxius and Banished "I fight france" Privateer ganging up and seal clubbing outside the US coast.  Color me surprised.  

When the US runs out of players to club or simply no longer have the inclination to log on anymore, do you think Banished and Rax will blame themselves?

Should of saved Rax's PMs the day he was leaving "oh I'm gonna immediately go fight Spain and break up their alliance".  Laugh.

Edited by Christendom

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2 minutes ago, Christendom said:

oh look its Mr "I didn't go France to sink US players" Raxius and Banished "I fight france" Privateer ganging up and seal clubbing outside the US coast.  Color me surprised.  

When the US runs out of players to club or simply no longer have the inclination to log on anymore, do you think Banished and Rax will blame themselves?

Should of saved Rax's PMs the day he was leaving "oh I'm gonna immediately go fight Spain and break up their alliance".  Laugh.

It's funny we get attacked every time you complain we kill them. This fight we got attacked as you can clearly see. US odds are like 5:1.

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Of course they're gonna attack you when sit outside ctown.  They see 20 of them and 5 of you and think "we got this".  Just like Rax is only instinctively capable is sinking US players, the US coast guard can instinctively be relied upon to open up a nice big wide circle for everyone to join outside ctown.  I mean they "could" not attack you....just like you "could" fight the french.  But they and you...won't.  Right?

Anyway.....As is Tradition

12 minutes ago, Aster said:

Ohhh boy is #Deny Content coming back?

We're always about operation #denycontent

Recently we've taken a page out of your leader's book (no not the bible) and have gone into hibernation pending a much needed patch.  Hopefully things pick up.    

Edited by Christendom

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1 hour ago, Banished Privateer said:

I got beached on the island in front of Charleston, helping capture a Santi that we killed later. I was stuck on the beach for 20+ minutes, being circled by 2 Santis, Pavel, Buc, Connie and bunch of other ships. When I managed to get out of the beach, I got chained to 55% sails, hull shot to pieces, chased by 10 ships, and then trapped in a channel from both sides, I had to push through 2 Santis, Bellona and bunch of other ships ending up with no HP again lol. French joined late, only 1 of them got an assist, rest was too far away for an actual fight. 1:30h battle with some screen

Just goes to show how great cton is of a harbor. To give US benefit of the doubt they did have 2 trader brigs and traders snow, but 2:1 odds nonetheless. For how extraordinary this is of an escape, truly one for the logs, it's still believable. It's not like you completely wiped the other side out. I'd say took about 1 for each of you, that's good enough really, completely destroying your enemy by sheer will of running and repairing over and over again isn't fun or is it believable. It's an immersion killer.

This may be a pin point example, but it's so rare and also unfounded considering you're at a greenzone fighting a mixed bag of players and not expert, trained and coordinated pvpers like yourself. It's a bit funny because there is no content for small band PVPers anymore (not that there was ever) so you just poke the bear of whatever capital you want to get a fight and hunt around the capitals when you want to hunt small game because not everyone is immediately on you when you attack a fleet of traders, or lone pvers coming to and from missions. Try getting good odds that way, you'll be lucky if the nearest person from you jumps in to go down with you if you aren't in a ship fitted for speed.

With the combination of repairs, damage and how tagging works (in both the OW and battle sense). The average battle is no longer fun. The average battle is actually very hit and miss, you either get a good fight, a long winded chase to last minute fight, or a long winded chase that the fight never really happens and it's just a meager showing.

The game is loaded with these sorta overdrawn, non-eventful battles that only look good on a screenshot but if you were to be on the chasing end of these battles, you'd be completely burned out and frustrated after each battle being tugged along on a string for 50 minutes then completely exploited and decimated in the last 30 because the attacks really just want a fight and the ((attackers)) or runners want to go all out to get the most ludicrous battle result and line your pockets with an asston of pvp marks to be able to do it all again using disposable meme ships like the bellona and wasa which can be made stupidly OP with a few mods from you guessed it, the PVP store and whatever books and random crap you already have. It's just all nonsense and a complete kick in the nuts to how these battles actually played out, and no I don't just mean taking days to chase and hours to fight. You take the chase, hands down the most boring part of naval combat that could possibly be translated into game and make it a manditory 80% of all time spent in battle unless you're running PURE RAM RAGE AND BOARD meta, you'd be better off if a computer calculated the odds of every battle and decided if it should be fought or to let everyone leave.

How many repairs does it take to engage a line, brawl a bit like would've likely happened in 2:1 odds, and peel off without sacrificing speed given that chain is already limited in range and number? hmm

anigif_enhanced-1382-1402500869-1.gif

 

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4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

[tldr]

You can complain all you want, but fact is: Green zone fights are the only fights you can get right now. 

You think that PvP-Players want it like that? No, of course not, but where shall they go to as an alternative? OW is dead. RvR is dead and 'PvP-Zone' is trash.

And as long as the casual player gets no candy for leaving the green zone it will stay like this that the hunter comes to the rabbit hole and fights newbyplayers in big ships they can't handle.

And to be fair, its a lot of fun to smash those newby players in too big ships...

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3 minutes ago, Nelsons Barrel said:

You can complain all you want, but fact is: Green zone fights are the only fights you can get right now. 

You think that PvP-Players want it like that? No, of course not, but where shall they go to as an alternative? OW is dead. RvR is dead and 'PvP-Zone' is trash.

And as long as the casual player gets no candy for leaving the green zone it will stay like this that the hunter comes to the rabbit hole and fights newbyplayers in big ships they can't handle.

And to be fair, its a lot of fun to smash those newby players in too big ships...

GO to another PvP/Clan nations port and start to flip it. I bet you will get that fight, oh yah half of them are all on the same side farming newbs at captials and won't attack each other.   All while less and less folks log on cause they are getting sick and tired of getting farmed at the capital and so called safe zones.  Numbers are dropping for more than one reason, but this isn't helpping at all.  Lets ask each other when was the last time the Prussians attacked a French port or vs verses one of the french attacked one of theres?  Don't tell me hostility is to much a pain cause they both do it to get folks to come out and fight them all ready (well the french do).   All I see is the same guys killing the same newbs over and over and calling them good fights while avoiding each other and complaining about RvR and PvP being dead.

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9 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

GO to another PvP/Clan nations port and start to flip it. I bet you will get that fight, oh yah half of them are all on the same side farming newbs at captials and won't attack each other.   All while less and less folks log on cause they are getting sick and tired of getting farmed at the capital and so called safe zones.  Numbers are dropping for more than one reason, but this isn't helpping at all.  Lets ask each other when was the last time the Prussians attacked a French port or vs verses one of the french attacked one of theres?  Don't tell me hostility is to much a pain cause they both do it to get folks to come out and fight them all ready (well the french do).   All I see is the same guys killing the same newbs over and over and calling them good fights while avoiding each other and complaining about RvR and PvP being dead.

Eventhough we shouldn't have this discussion here, I will now give you a few reasons why it is how it is, I don't care if you like to hear them or not.

Why do PvP-players don't attack other PvP-Players? First of all, as a PvP-player you meet other nations pvp-players at the same hunting grounds you are hunting on. So why would you try to attack those few guys in hostile water? You know that coast guard will come out if they scouted your battle. They will definetly join one side and make the so equal hunter vs hunter battle to a gank with seals and pvp players vs pvp players alone. Happened already multiple times. So as you initiate the battle you can already start flipping the coin if you gonna loose your battle to the reinforcement-coastguards or that they join your side and will try to kill you afterwards. You never know how many coastguardplayers will come out of port, so you expect the maximum amount and join forces with other hunters.

On the other hand, you probably fitted your huntership with a few millions worth of upgrades. Attacking other pvp players is just more risky as you can do one mistake and then its over. While that, smashing newbies or old vets that don't learn is easier, more joyfull and especially you can do mistakes and still survive it and get lots of rewards (pvp-marks).

 

Why do PvP-players don't want to flip ports? Flipping ports mean, you have 10 players or a multiple of that online and willing to spend at least 3 hours of their lifetime to do pve. You need to flip it in one run or it's for nothing. In this time you can get jumped anytime. You need to outfit your ship differently than you would to do OW. You NEED to use a first rate eventhough they are not that much fun as smaller ships are. You need to be prepared to have enough reps for up to 6! battles (4 pve and 1 pvp-interception and 1 revengefleet outside), that already gives you a speed disadvantages over your opponents.

So yes, you may get pvp like that and maybe a joyfull portbattle that you might eventually win. But what do you gain from winning the PB? You spend multiple hours of your lifetime to get it and now you own a port that probably only looses money, so you are forced to spend money on it or make it neutral again. So no longterm-motivation.

While that going to a capital is comparable fast paced pvp. Get there, fight, leave when you are done.

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1 hour ago, Nelsons Barrel said:

Eventhough we shouldn't have this discussion here, I will now give you a few reasons why it is how it is, I don't care if you like to hear them or not.

Why do PvP-players don't attack other PvP-Players? First of all, as a PvP-player you meet other nations pvp-players at the same hunting grounds you are hunting on. So why would you try to attack those few guys in hostile water? You know that coast guard will come out if they scouted your battle. They will definetly join one side and make the so equal hunter vs hunter battle to a gank with seals and pvp players vs pvp players alone. Happened already multiple times. So as you initiate the battle you can already start flipping the coin if you gonna loose your battle to the reinforcement-coastguards or that they join your side and will try to kill you afterwards. You never know how many coastguardplayers will come out of port, so you expect the maximum amount and join forces with other hunters.

On the other hand, you probably fitted your huntership with a few millions worth of upgrades. Attacking other pvp players is just more risky as you can do one mistake and then its over. While that, smashing newbies or old vets that don't learn is easier, more joyfull and especially you can do mistakes and still survive it and get lots of rewards (pvp-marks).

 

 Made me chuckle, so from reading this you want meaningful PvP but it has to be easy.  You won't attack other PVP players because your ships are expensive and you may lose them and so club noobs all day. Fighting low skilled players means that you can make more mistakes..... where as fighting another PvPer means it would be challenging.

But you don't really like killing newer players as you are not challenged and can't find good opponents (like those PvP-ers next to you in the capital zones).

Funny as hell :D

It's no wonder server pop is becoming lower when hardcore PVP-ers won't fight each other, groan about lack of PvP, and use that as excuse to seal club all day. Preventing new players getting the upgrades, ships, gold etc they need to provide decent PvP fights.

Sad state of affairs

 

 

 

Edited by Dibbler
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There is so many pvp'ers here complaining about lack of pvp, you could easily fight each other all day long around La Tortue or Tumbado instead of waiting infront of a capital while you write posts on forum about lack or state of pvp.

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