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Cetric de Cornusiac

Newbie protection suggestion: make PvP marks tiered to ranks

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One golden thread or leitmotiv is running through this forum: we need to protect new players from being 'farmed' again and again by veterans, else they rage quit and the player base of Naval Action is suffering...

In this context I present to you the following idea:

Let's connect PvP marks as rewards for player kills to the rank of the victim. Effect: veterans will strive to find and fight other veterans and ignore "low mark" opponents more likely. This is especially true for the pro players who know no other fun than killing others in large numbers, which is expressed by this terrible term "farming" noobs.

Meaning, you get low PvP reward for a beginner's rank victim and a maximum PvP reward for top ranks being sunk by you.

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Like for example:

Midshipman: factor 0,07x present PvP marks

Ensign: factor 0,15x

2nd Lt: factor 0,3x

1st Lt: factor 0,5x

Lt.Cmd: factor 0,7x

Master and Commander: factor 1x

Post Captain: factor 1,2x

Flag Captain: factor 1,4x

Commodore: factor 1,6x

Rear Admiral: factor 2,0x

This system would need to partly remove the anonymity in OW sighting, because you need to detect the enemy rank for estimating if he is worth your time in regard of obtainable PvP marks.

 

Pros:

Protective effect on lower ranks

Veterans fight more other veterans

new players are more likely to stay in the game

Cons:

you need to show your rank in OW and this occasionally allows to identify you (like when you are the only rear admiral around)

not good for your ego when you are beginner and are eager to fight

 

This could evem be spiced up by special PvP mark rewards if the low rank is so audacious he actively seeks the challenge of attacking high rank veteran players. In this case he will hardly have to complain and quit the game altogether, it will be his free choice. However, if he is really lucky and sinks the veteran player, we give him a bonus together with his PvP reward. Like: (two ranks higher) factor 1,5x (three ranks higher) factor 2,0x (four ranks higher) factor 2,5x (five ranks higher) factor 3,0x (more than five ranks higher) factor 5,0x. Again: this applies for a voluntary attack of a lower rank on a higher rank. If you want to encourage people to step out and get bloody noses. And make veterans not feel too safe all the time...

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10 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

This could evem be spiced up by special PvP mark rewards if the low rank is so audacious he actively seeks the challenge of attacking high rank veteran players

I can already see low rank alts used for PvP

What about newbie attacking newbie? Example:

2nd Lt vs 2nd Lt - do you want to punish them for being low rank and not give them full rewards but modified by factor?

Edited by Banished Privateer

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is that even a problem? I know people that were better with low ranks than others being highest rank right now.

Its just the problem of pve ranks and the lack of pvp ranks

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Please, gentlemen, let's try to be constructive. The main idea behind my suggestion is to shift away hunter attention from new players to veteran players, as it will become more rewarding. How this is measured and what math model would be the best working, I leave to the devs or you commentators. A system which accurately measures one rank against the other, in relation, should fit the best. But it is not my task to present a ready-to-go math formula for this. Just triggering the idea.

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Just now, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Please, gentlemen, let's try to be constructive. The main idea behind my suggestion is to shift away hunter attention from new players to veteran players, as it will become more rewarding. How this is measured and what math model would be the best working, I leave to the devs or you commentators. A system which accurately measures one rank against the other, in relation, should fit the best. But it is not my task to present a ready-to-go math formula for this. Just triggering the idea.

Monetary incentive won't work when targets are already limited. A hungry lion isn't going to choose the fattest meal, it's gonna eat whatever it can take.
Less gain for new killing players is still gain, this won't change anything.

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4 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Please, gentlemen, let's try to be constructive. The main idea behind my suggestion is to shift away hunter attention from new players to veteran players, as it will become more rewarding. How this is measured and what math model would be the best working, I leave to the devs or you commentators. A system which accurately measures one rank against the other, in relation, should fit the best. But it is not my task to present a ready-to-go math formula for this. Just triggering the idea.

Its a very interesting suggestion and I think if a rank differential formula were used, it could be a lot of fun.  The issue of highly skilled players using low ranking alts is probably not solvable, but if that's what floats a player's boat...

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11 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Monetary incentive won't work when targets are already limited. A hungry lion isn't going to choose the fattest meal, it's gonna eat whatever it can take.
Less gain for new killing players is still gain, this won't change anything.

This is true. People tag anything and everything and the only discrimination made is that they make sure they can bully their prey.

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34 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Please, gentlemen, let's try to be constructive. The main idea behind my suggestion is to shift away hunter attention from new players to veteran players, as it will become more rewarding. How this is measured and what math model would be the best working, I leave to the devs or you commentators. A system which accurately measures one rank against the other, in relation, should fit the best.

Rank means nothing, there are still players with 1k hours who cant shoot straight in a fight.

Elo ranking would be the best for this problem. Every player has its personal elo and if you kill someone you gain elo depending on the difference between you and the enemy. If you die you lose some of it.

On top of that you get a "gank multiplier" to lower the gains for the higher BR team and lower the losses for the low BR team.

Now you can give players rewards based on their performance, based on their enemies and based on the circumstances. This will discourage ganking and encourage fighting stronger enemies.

Example how it could work:

French kill US over and over again. That means US elo will be low and it will be unattractive for anyone to attack them since the gain is small and you could lose a lot. On the other side Frenchies will be hunted because the gain for killing them will be very high. So US get a break from the constant ganks while Frenchies get hunted, both are happy.

There also should be rewards for high elo every month or so to encourage people to get high elo

Cons: 

- can probably be exploited as everything in this game

- doesnt make much sense with such a small playerbase

- needs time to implement

Edited by Jon Snow lets go
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Usually I'm not interested in "seal clubbing" but if you sail for 2-3h and find just one player, you can:

-Kill the player and make him quit the game

-Quit the game yourself

Either way game loses in theory one player. Rewards should be more based on BR factors as @Jon Snow lets go said. Ranks mean nothing in PvP.

Edited by Banished Privateer
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1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:

Monetary incentive won't work when targets are already limited. A hungry lion isn't going to choose the fattest meal, it's gonna eat whatever it can take.
Less gain for new killing players is still gain, this won't change anything.

No, I think it will change something. The pro's go for maximizing their "food" a.k.a. PvP marks. Like you find them now always in the patrol zone of the day, because PvP marks earning is maxed there.

Give them fatter meat and they will sink their teeth into this. Why don't you want to see it tested before you shoot out your anticipation, which is based on... wait... on which it is based actually? Other than opinion?

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1 hour ago, Banished Privateer said:

Usually I'm not interested in "seal clubbing" but if you sail for 2-3h and find just one player, you can: 

-Kill the player and make him quit the game

-Quit the game yourself

Sure, if you don't find anyone else than the low rank player, you chose him before you just sail around for fishing...

I have nothing against it. But:

Meanwhile, you still have to do some calculations in the back of your head: will your hull repairs you have with you (in limited quantity of course because you need to be fast in your hunter ship) last enough if you use it up on a number of low-pvp-rewarding newbies, or better spare it for the big guy you may come across in half an hour? You never know. You set your prime objectives. If you use up your repairs for a series of low reward battles and then get ganked by the other veteran, you would wish you had prepared better... So the difference in battle reward outcome will become a logistic problem. Not that we did not have it yet, but it will get an interesting new touch.

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One of the things we also need is getting rewards when not sinking an enemy, so if you get ganked, do alot of damage but you cannot sink anyone (5vs1) you will still get some rewards..marks/gold etc..just like it is in the pvp zone

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5 minutes ago, Mrgoldstein said:

One of the things we also need is getting rewards when not sinking an enemy, so if you get ganked, do alot of damage but you cannot sink anyone (5vs1) you will still get some rewards..marks/gold etc..just like it is in the pvp zone

Very good point.  I got almost 10,000 damage in one PVP zone battle, whilst dying valiantly (in a Snow).  That's 3 PVP marks straight up and Halfway to 10.

Edited by Oberon74
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5 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Protective effect on lower ranks

Veterans fight more other veterans

new players are more likely to stay in the game

If a high rank see a low rank, he would attack him anyway. Many just behave like artillery does.."There are no friends or foes, only Targets" :)

 

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1 hour ago, Fenris said:

If a high rank see a low rank, he would attack him anyway. Many just behave like artillery does.."There are no friends or foes, only Targets" :)

 

You realized this is the major problem of this game? Or why else the discussion about why new players don't stay in the game is a constant one? - so this what you observe has to change. For the sake of the game.

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24 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

You realized this is the major problem of this game? Or why else the discussion about why new players don't stay in the game is a constant one? - so this what you observe has to change. For the sake of the game.

Yes! It's up to the developer to take reigns on pvp and start directing fights on the map. As we've seen for so long players take the path of least resistance, you cant rely on players to hold themselves to high noble standards in order for the pvp environment to be good and strong. At some point you need to start dictating the flow of combat somehow.

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I'm not positive your suggestion will work. There are a few factors at play but the largest is that x5 easy kills is still less risk than x1 equally or hard fought kill. The second is that seal clubbing is generally very fast battle. Third the seal seldom knows how to communicate well enough with the nation to get a revenge gank going. Lastly it's an almost guaranteed kill for an experienced player. We can not convince the masses to take risk as long as the math says enough no risk fights still add up.

I currently have a group of new players learning to play for the first time. One was seal clubbed out in front of Havana this weekend by the unclanned pirate HopMah.  She was second level sailing a trader brig with one in fleet going from Mariel to Havanna. With only 60 crew and clearly in the noob area of the Capitol it was pretty clear to anyone of experience she was a baby seal.  Despite us asking him in chat not to club her he still went for it. It was quick as seal clubbings usually go. Just sailed up pushed her into the wind and rage boarded. HopMah was in a Hercules, have to thank the Devs for that rediculous elite perk, so he had little to risk and simply ran after the clubbing. As long as this remains easy, quick and minimum risk it's going to keep happening even if they get little to no rewards. 

If in addition to the low rewards in PVP marks, if you could increase the risk to the clubber you have a better chance of curbing this behavior. The current green zone reinforcement is a joke especially against ships like the Hercules that grossly over power their ship rating.

Edited by Estaban De la Vega
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Captains Greetings,

Dammit, time is so short and I want to read as much of the forums as I can before hopping back into real life. 

I just wanted to thank Capt Cetric for his ideas, the rest of you for discussing them and Capt Estaban for teaching Noobs.

Fair sailing all.

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6 hours ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

Rank means nothing, there are still players with 1k hours who cant shoot straight in a fight.

Elo ranking would be the best for this problem. Every player has its personal elo and if you kill someone you gain elo depending on the difference between you and the enemy. If you die you lose some of it.

On top of that you get a "gank multiplier" to lower the gains for the higher BR team and lower the losses for the low BR team.

I can see this actually working as it addresses another problem which is the unbalanced relationship between PvP rewards and the value of a trader's ship and cargo.  If actual merchant activity is actually wanted in the game this might help.

Mercantile-focused players are likely to have a lower Elo and be in lower BR ships.

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9 hours ago, rediii said:

I know people that were better with low ranks than others being highest rank right now

How many people do you know out of the whole population ? This is worthless for me, my grandpa was a friend of Einstein and John Nash, so ? Few out of thousand is not a good evidence.

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9 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

I can already see low rank alts used for PvP

What about newbie attacking newbie? Example:

2nd Lt vs 2nd Lt - do you want to punish them for being low rank and not give them full rewards but modified by factor?

I have actually done this in other games where you could get bonus by being lower rank.  Just keep deleting my char and starting over.  It was a great way to farm idiots that had no skill that tried to kill noobs all the time.   You can do it in this game too. I have had alts leveling up take out RA's in fights.

Also remember the shallows are the equalizers as any low rank can get into the exact same ship as a RA and fight on pretty much equal terms if they are at least rank 5 (that is when you max out perk points).  Keeping the rewards off BR difference means for a better system.  It also means a group will get less reward than a solo 1 vs 1 so.  

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If ranks would be PvP based, it's a good idea - not for stopping fights though, but for rewarding players who fight much more experienced opponents, and to incentivise them to do so. 

Even if you sink 3 times but you sink your enemy once, your rewards should be similar if he's 3 times better than you. 

This system will not stop uneven fights. People are hungry for any action. 

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9 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

How many people do you know out of the whole population ? This is worthless for me, my grandpa was a friend of Einstein and John Nash, so ? Few out of thousand is not a good evidence.

There are literally thousands of rear admirals who stand no chance in a dysk with a decent player. It's not even about difference between low and high rank, but between two high ranked players. 

 

Many top rank players could use incentives to fight veterans. 

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12 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

 You can do it in this game too. I have had alts leveling up take out RA's in fights.

And you even seem to be proud of it. The abuse by alts is no excuse to impede improvements to this game. As there is always a way to gain advantages by cheating. And you even publish a 'how to' instruction and spread the idea, so others try the same. Not positive.

Instead, the use of alts has to be fought. Seriously. All the time I read someone saying "but alts do this and do that and thus it won't work" - thanks for always adding new arguments why alts need to be extinguished for some destructive effect they have. Finally. But only devs can do it, and economic motives speak against enforcing, which is damping my anticipation something will be done, at last.

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17 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

You realized this is the major problem of this game

This is not the major problem of this game. You did not play 2, or even 3 years ago this game, and you are assuming too many things.

That is one of your major problems.

 

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