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4 minutes ago, Nelsons Barrel said:

Sorry, but, are you kind of slow? I will, just for you, repeat my suggestion.

The problem: A new player joins the game. Passes tutorial and grinds in basic cutter a little bit of money. Now he wants to buy a ship to progress in his leveling effort. His crew count is 400. So he is looking not for a shallow water ship but a frig. Frigs he finds on the market are fir/fir or comparable. Vets tell him not to use those kind of ships as they are not tanky enough to grind in, so called trash. 

The current way: He has to build up his economy to get the ship of his wishes. It's hard, its painfull and no fun for a guy who wants 'Naval Action', not afk-trading simulator.

The solution: A contract system, so he can put it: 'I need a trinc with teak and white oak planking. I pay 600k. ' Should it get fullfilled, he has a proper ship for the money he offered, if not, price was too low or nobody willing to fullfill because of reasons.

Pro: 

-Get more new guys  out to OW with proper ships they wanted to have.

-New market for crafters as they build on order not on wild guessing and hoping it will get bought.

-Economy-realism: No real shipyard builds ships in hoping to sell ships but on ordering contract.

 

Con: 

-Lazy guys will have problems to sell trash ships to players.

 

 

What exactly is not a new player experience in this case? 

Easy enough...  I sail over to the next port that sells a teak/crew space 5th rate and I go hunting.  

Not in front of KPR.  Not in front of Mortimer. Not in front of Fort Royal.  

I go and open up a port at La Mona. It’s a beautiful sail.  I also might find a nice target or two along the way.  

Or maybe I sail to Tumbado and open up an outpost there.  Then I sail west along the Yucatán and find some Spanish traders full of “stuff” I can sail back to port and sell for a nice profit.  

Or if I’m boring and/or lazy, I buy a Sabicu frigate and sit in front of KPR and jump in on the British Coast Guard missions that pop up all day.  

If im social, I join up with another new player that wants to venture out and see the world with me.  Also the best way to learn and level, as sailing in small groups is 100X safer than traveling alone.  

Or, you might get unlucky and get ganked right in front of port when you leave.  Even then, if you turn and fight, put a few broadsides into your opponent, then you should at least earn back the money that you spent on your sabicu store bought ship.  

 

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I started out as a loner and it was not all that bad.  The only truly negative aspect was the ganking/seal clubbing, but tbh, I quickly learned how to avoid most of that.  granted I learned when the green zones were more effective for me. my main problem with Nelsons posts is his assumption that I need a premium ship.  I die far too often to sail out in an expensive ship.

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11 minutes ago, Estaban De la Vega said:

First off, no true new players are likely to pass that tutorial. They finish the first page and stop. It's simply to difficult unless they have a lot of sailing genre game experience that uses similar control key set up.

Second, I think a contract system is actually a good idea. Though right now you can usually just announce in nation chat "I need a TK/WO Trinc and I'm paying 600k" and someone will respond. If you add in that your new to the game you probably get it for free.

Easiest way for new players to build money in goods trading. More that any other method. You can simply use a basic cutter to score a few trader brigs and starting cash. Cocoa, coffee, Cuban tobacco, black iron wood and historical artifacts are prime dollar goods that buy and sell all over the map. Start there and work your way up. The new guys I'm working with all made their first million gold in under two hours.

 

 

Did that.  Works like a charm. Should be in the tutorial

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1 minute ago, Oberon74 said:

... Nelsons posts is his assumption that I need a premium ship...

thats why we keep telling him that its a vet problem and not a newcomer problem. Do you agree that a newcomer would use any ship he can get hands on. Except a vet tells him that ship is shit (by that he is referring the ship is no meta)

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1 minute ago, z4ys said:

thats why we keep telling him that its a vet problem and not a newcomer problem. Do you agree that a newcomer would use any ship he can get hands on. Except a vet tells him that ship is shit (by that he is referring the ship is no meta)

I do agree with that.  I've put plenty of money into the ship shop and to be fair, you can get decent ships there.

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I'm totally new to the game comparatively speaking, though I am at 300 hours already because it has been addicting.  I really do believe the game is in a good place now as a new person and doesn't need major changes to make it easier.  This game seems difficult but its just simply learning your way around.  I've been at it a month and I make $3-4 million dollar trades because I've mastered the basics, how the economy works, and I know how to find the goods that make a profit.  I can finance and fund myself for months and months in the game all without my clan.  Add my clan to the mix and I have resources forever.

I am now into crafting and am at level 14, so it wont be long before I can build the larger warships and traders without purchasing from the NPC, allowing me one day to build the ships and take on our most famous PVPers.  In addition nobody will sink me now as I have developed a method to navigate far offshore without the need for visual landmarks, all ded-reckoning.  If someone finds me out that far to sea, I will gladly fight to the bitter end and feel proud.

Finally the only thing that holds new people back, IMHO is the culture of certain PVPers who don't look for glorious fights, just the ones they can quickly sink and get their PVP points.  I think we need a culture shift to honor and respect for the ships we sink.  It should be an honor to sink a large warship and win in battle and a shame to sink weaker opponents who have not threatened you and don't have the ability to compete equipment wise.  There should be ROE related specifically to PVP and the play style that many employ would start wars that would put an end to it.  Case in point: the War of 1812, impress enough sailors and sink enough traders eventually the nation you're doing it to is going to get pissed and take action to stop it.

We need more of that.

Edited by Tsizzle
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Your experience is very similar to mine.  I disagree about the shame to sink a trader though.  Commerce raiding is a valid part of war and the natural mission of 6th rates.

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12 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

Your experience is very similar to mine.  I disagree about the shame to sink a trader though.  Commerce raiding is a valid part of war and the natural mission of 6th rates.

the problem here is that the pvp marks are worth more then the transported goods.

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Just now, Oberon74 said:

Your experience is very similar to mine.  I disagree about the shame to sink a trader though.  Commerce raiding is a valid part of war and the natural mission of 6th rates.

Certainly agree with that.  Commerce raiding is 100% valid.  I just mean specifically seal clubbing.  I'm getting better, more able and as a result, I am slowly getting out of the mindset of anger when I lose a ship.  They're just another commodity and I need to think that way to make the game fun.  And when I can craft live oak/white oak and teak/white oak myself, plus install my modules and ship knowledge, most of my issues with PVP should vanish.  

As far as ROE I'm thinking specifically as it relates to actions of foreign nations shores and against other warships.  There needs to be honor.  If its obvious you aren't going to get a strong fight, I.E. you're in a 3rd rate and you're about to smash a 6th rate, maybe turn off and let him go.  There was a ROE in the time period, where you would not fire on a smaller ship unless fired upon first.  See if the smaller ship has the aggression, if he does, send him to the bottom.  Honor being the key.

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2 minutes ago, Tsizzle said:

...not fire on a smaller ship unless fired upon first.  See if the smaller ship has the aggression, if he does, send him to the bottom.  Honor being the key.

But the smaller ship would surrender. Lets take this example:

A trader brig gets intercepted by a 3rd rate. 3rd rate is into fire distance.

IRL: The tbrig would surrender

in NA: The tbrig runs away

NA tried by making crew expensive to simulate the rl result but after all its a game. So we went back to fight it out.

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4 hours ago, Batman said:

A contract system that not just allows crafters to sell ships, but also allows players to put up a "Request-ship-contract".

 

Yes a contract in which the "buyer" should define the ship type and the woods to be used, the price in gold and combat marks (which should be simplified with the nexr currency system in dollars and "pièces of 8".

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32 minutes ago, z4ys said:

But the smaller ship would surrender. Lets take this example:

A trader brig gets intercepted by a 3rd rate. 3rd rate is into fire distance.

IRL: The tbrig would surrender

in NA: The tbrig runs away

NA tried by making crew expensive to simulate the rl result but after all its a game. So we went back to fight it out.

I surrendered to a player last week.  I was in 2 TBrigs and he tagged in a 6th rate.  He offered to let my bot go if I surrendered.  I knew I could not run (he had already chained me). Since I just go out and cap TBrigs when I need them, why waste both our time on a pointless battle?  losing the odd TBrig is a cost of doing business in OW.  I get more xp and money when I get my next TBrig. 

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2 hours ago, Tsizzle said:

Certainly agree with that.  Commerce raiding is 100% valid.  I just mean specifically seal clubbing.  I'm getting better, more able and as a result, I am slowly getting out of the mindset of anger when I lose a ship.  They're just another commodity and I need to think that way to make the game fun.  And when I can craft live oak/white oak and teak/white oak myself, plus install my modules and ship knowledge, most of my issues with PVP should vanish.  

As far as ROE I'm thinking specifically as it relates to actions of foreign nations shores and against other warships.  There needs to be honor.  If its obvious you aren't going to get a strong fight, I.E. you're in a 3rd rate and you're about to smash a 6th rate, maybe turn off and let him go.  There was a ROE in the time period, where you would not fire on a smaller ship unless fired upon first.  See if the smaller ship has the aggression, if he does, send him to the bottom.  Honor being the key.

Your point about ROE is valid and on point, in the 19th century it was considered to be ungentlemanly to engage small ships from a ship of the line, in was an unwritten rule that it was not done unless the lesser rated ship opened fire first. This rule was accepted by all nations, Officers who broke this rule were at risk of finding themselves on the beach, on half pay or even unpaid, their position as an Officer and Gentleman ruined in society.

The transposition of 21st century values  over the those imposed in the 19th century actually removes much of the ambience of a time when with a few exemptions the war at sea was fought with honour and courtesy by gentlemen who held a respected place in society,

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5 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

 

Or, you might get unlucky and get ganked right in front of port when you leave.  Even then, if you turn and fight, put a few broadsides into your opponent, then you should at least earn back the money that you spent on your sabicu store bought ship.  

 

What are you talking about, if you don't outright win the fight, you get nothing but XP. It makes PVP a very one sided reward structure. If you did get marks and gold for engaging in the fight, you might see less tag, run, repeat. I only sail in ships I am happy to lose, and I am out actively looking for fights because I want to get better at PVP. So far I mainly find groups of expert PVPers in much much better (faster) ships than mine, and despite putting in a good effort, and even getting a decent amount of damage on them before sinking, nothing but XP for my trouble.

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22 hours ago, z4ys said:

the problem here is that the pvp marks are worth more then the transported goods.

I am inclined to agree.  I get my intact ship and cargo on escaping a battle instance.  Which I accept.  That's the game.

But a shellacking if I stand and fight and the other guy gets paid.  The latter is a bit annoying.  Definitely not an incentive to stand and fight.  So it's been awhile since I've been caught.  The last time I made him sink me rather than be boarded.

If we're interested in any realism it seems like the victor should have had to live with whatever he could fit in his hold from the salvage.

Edited by Marcus Corvus

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On 5/25/2018 at 7:52 AM, Tsizzle said:

I'm totally new to the game comparatively speaking, though I am at 300 hours already because it has been addicting.  I really do believe the game is in a good place now as a new person and doesn't need major changes to make it easier.  This game seems difficult but its just simply learning your way around.  I've been at it a month and I make $3-4 million dollar trades because I've mastered the basics, how the economy works, and I know how to find the goods that make a profit.  I can finance and fund myself for months and months in the game all without my clan.  Add my clan to the mix and I have resources forever.

I am now into crafting and am at level 14, so it wont be long before I can build the larger warships and traders without purchasing from the NPC, allowing me one day to build the ships and take on our most famous PVPers.  In addition nobody will sink me now as I have developed a method to navigate far offshore without the need for visual landmarks, all ded-reckoning.  If someone finds me out that far to sea, I will gladly fight to the bitter end and feel proud.

Finally the only thing that holds new people back, IMHO is the culture of certain PVPers who don't look for glorious fights, just the ones they can quickly sink and get their PVP points.  I think we need a culture shift to honor and respect for the ships we sink.  It should be an honor to sink a large warship and win in battle and a shame to sink weaker opponents who have not threatened you and don't have the ability to compete equipment wise.  There should be ROE related specifically to PVP and the play style that many employ would start wars that would put an end to it.  Case in point: the War of 1812, impress enough sailors and sink enough traders eventually the nation you're doing it to is going to get pissed and take action to stop it.

We need more of that.

This has to be one of the all time greatest posts I've ever read.  It should be the preface of the NA basic training guide.

I've found the community here helpful.  If a newbie needs a decent ship there are lots of player's who will get involved.  There are so many challenges that can be solved by working with players and we really don't need the Devs to create a mechanic to solve most of the problems.  I don't belong to a clan and find a huge amount of support from players of all nations.

Perhaps after the game is released a comprehensive guide will be available .  With the game in development a guide would need to be updated often.  Not sure if creating it now would be efficient.

Edited by Macjimm
Speling

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Good idea

If you sink someone while having equal or less BR, you get "positive" reputation / karma points. That should be limited by factors, e.g. 1x1 BR is 1x rep. Points, max. 1x3 BR (enemies being 3) is 3x rep. Points. Cant go higher to avoid excessive farming.

And same thing the other way round. Sink someone while outnumbering 3x1 BR, you get 3x "negative" rep. / karma points.

Could add reputation / karma ranks based on your standings, so lets say if you see a very badly rated captain with lots of negative karma, you know not to make deals with him / trust him or whatever

Maybe having a lot of positive reputation points could also grant some bonusses such as cheaper prices in admiralty shop or what not.

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For solo players it is a good idea, they get all the bonus for it. But what about the team players. Should they just stay out of the fight,  and wait until there friend is back. 

Reward the low BR. Sound logic, But to my knowledge in most 1-1 a first rate will lose against a lets say Bellona, they will just sternrake him to death, is that an honnorable fight?

In a Capitol area, where many can join, they will get punished for trying to protect s guy jumped. Trust me, if this get inplementet, no guys will come to the aid.

What happens to a screeningsfleet, if it is bigger than the PB fleet, they get punished for doing there job.

Ask me, well this is not a duel game, But a war game, think legend is a duel game, But never tried it.

Edited by staun
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12 minutes ago, staun said:

in most 1-1 a first rate will lose against a lets say Bellona, they will just sternrake him to death, is that an honnorable fight?

I really dont think so

Maybe it could be made work only for the patrol zones. But those first need a RoE overhaul.

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18 minutes ago, Liq said:

I really dont think so

Maybe it could be made work only for the patrol zones. But those first need a RoE overhaul.

I agree patrole need something. In generally I have been positive surpriced in the patrol area, most player actually join the side with the least br. Can’t off always because of nationality. But think there are to big BR allowed in general in the patrol area, and need something soe you want have to fight hopeless ods. Maybe make it possible to escape if the diff is to high, ore make a cap on how high the diff can be. Maybe something like 3 times higher

edit: It can’t only be based on BR, But also need to look at numbers if players. 

An example: me and my son go Down in patrol area. Wich we actually we often do. So Br 900. He get attacked by 3 snows, But because of the Br diff I cant join. Is that fair?

Edited by staun

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