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EdWatchmaker

New Player Retention: Noobs & Seal Clubbing vs Seasoned PVPers

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10 minutes ago, Eleazar de Damas said:

Maybe, for keeping newbies in game, we need a specific content for newbies.

But avoid to force newbies to follow certain mission strings. Make all that you proposed voluntarily accepted content, not mandatory. Me, for example; I am a player type who really hates to follow predefined tracks how to do things. I want the most of freedom. Sandbox type of games are therefore perfect for me, tunnel levels and scripted stories my nightmare. People like me would get annoyed.

The gamer type who needs a storyline, missions and carrots in front of his nose - otherwise complaining he has no motivation in the game to do things - he may have no objection to missions strictly imposed on him.

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I mean you can’t make people PVP and no, the PVE server isn’t a solution.  PVP doesn’t imply that you HAVE to PVP, just that it’s an option.  In most OW MMO games there is an acceptable level of ganking players are willing to put up with.  Losing a load of stuff happens occasionally, no big deal.  But constantly getting killed because players are bored isn’t fun.  So they leave and you end up with current levels of players we have right now. 

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I think you are making it inverse.

PvP (server) doesn't imply that you have to pvp, just that you're open to it.

( can happen at any moment )

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18 minutes ago, Eleazar de Damas said:

then hardcore PvP players complain that they need more easy kills (they don’t write it that way, they claim for nerfing safe zones, in surface or in protection feature, or how to “force” players to PvP, etc.)

For most of them it's not really insidious. They came for the open world with "organic" pvp, as they often put it. Some of them protest against patrol zones because it's a fighting cage that doesn't adhere to the sandbox ideals.

I can be a little less diplomatic, just like you. They say "organic pvp" but what they seek is to always keep the advantage and force loss on the other dude. You know the sandbox (REALISM!!) mantra of "If you find yourself in a fair fight you done funked up".

I guess this is... ok for sandbox purists, but what puzzles me is they expect it to be sustainable as far as keeping new players.

I don't think I've seen many of them admit to the issue, but they sure have some fixes ready, just some tiny little things the OW needs:

Storyline PVE, MOAR PVE, deeper eco, MEANINGFUL eco.

Look back at how long it took to develop eco and crafting up to the level that we're currently at. Now imagine how long it will take to develop their wishlist up to a point where they're happy about it.

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The sandbox mantra is fine and sustainable, just the boundaries of the sandbox need to be clearly defined and not overlap with new player areas.  The devs job should be to get the new player from the steam checkout and into the sandbox safely and moderately aware of how the game works.  

NA does not accomplish that.  I know in most games that are open world MMO style it’ll be days until you’re put into a position to see an enemy.  Here it’s 30 seconds.  Simple protections and zones need to be in place to reach that new player how to play before he gets to the sandbox 

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Very interesting idea but as stated before getting ships/modules from a PvE server to a PvP server is bad for the economy as capturing ports on the PvP server has even less use than than it has now. I thought about how I would handle the new players getting sealclubbed problem while keeping the game interesting for everyone.

First of all I would as suggested before Invent a rookie zone somewhere which is neutral and get new players into the game without being in a nation until they learned the basics in a compleatly safe area. Give them Missions to do certain things in this area to learn about the game and the sailing. I am not quite sure which missions would have to be a part of this but I'm sure someone else has a better idea than me what new players need to learn before they are ready for PvP in the open world. 

After they finished those missions and know how the crafting/trading/fighting system works they get the option to join a Nation. In my opinion in a Roleplaying way where they get a letter from each admiralty infroming them about where the nation capital is with a realistic description of the dangours of joining this nation (which would have to be updated on a regular bases) and the dangours of the open world. When they coose which nation they want to join they get a another few missions which they can complete over time to gain EXP more quickly than by running normal AI fights. Exampled for those missions would be. "Join a clan", "Help your Nation defend/take a port". These missions agai have to come with an explanation like for the PB missions they get a description of how a PB works, how screening works, that they should ask their clan or nation abou the PB and join them on Voice coms if possible. Explain the risks of going to a PB but make it a rewarding experiance even if they loose their ship by for example rewarding them for just being there screening. Also everytime you log in you should get a msg about where your nation is trying to take/defend a port and and which time, BR limit, defending clan and so on.  

 Compleatly safe PvE should be an option for everyone aka start a mission straight from the capital port without undocking and ever going to the open world. Those missions should only give basic rewards but allow people with limited time to just log in run a mission and log out again. That way they can earn money so when they have some more time to play they can venture out and start exploring. Because compleatly safe PvE is possible I would also change the reinforcement system (yet again). GIve every nation a Capital port that can not be captured and arround which in a certain area evry battle stays open for (just as a suggestion) 15 minutes but only for the defending nation. If someone gets attacked in that zone there is a msg in Nation chat saying someone got attacked and a battle icon pops up on the map for every player of the nation to see. This should encourage people to go and help out. This zone could be bigger than the current reinforcement zone of a port but only be there for the capital ports or ports clans choose to pay more for to activate this zone. By that also reduce timer costs again so the defender has an advantage becuase they can choose the time. Every other port should be capturable BUT with a advantage to the defender if they are close to the capital (like for example giving the defender more BR to flill the PB with or any other suggestion people can come up with). This should maybe apply for former safezone ports. 

If a new player decides to join a Nation he gets an extensive warning about what can happen on the open world, How they should allways sail traders with escorts and so on. 

Now for my last point to encourage people to go out PvPing. The current mark system only reards the winner. Everyone should go out of a PvP fight winning or loosing with some kind of rewarding feeling. PvP should randomly drop for example paints for ships which can only be aquired by fighting other people no matter if you sink or not. If you sink someone in a fight maybe a "Captains chest" should drop and if you loot them they have some upgrade that was on the ship in there plus some other goodies which are randomly generated like a few parts for other upgrades, Labour Contracts, more paints and so on. Those chests should be 100% yours as soon as you loot them which means go directly into a safe section like the current Captains chest. Along with this maybe your caracter could benefit from PvP with Admiralty rewards for PvP fights no matter the outcome. If you go and fight an enemy but die the admiralty could reward you for your bravery by giving you gold/Labour hrs or even ships which would maybe only be with 2 pemanent upgrade slots or in some other way waker than crafted ships but so casual palyers wouldn't be set back as much by loosing a ship. Those rewards would have to be balanced in a way. For example if you loose a ship in the reinforcement area you get a new one. If you loose a ship in enemy waters you get some gold rewards for bravery.

Basically the goal  is players knowing what they get themselfes into when goin to the open world. Giving them a guideline by some missions of what would be a good idea to do next no matter if they coose to do it or not. Make PvP rewarding for everyone not just the winner and punish new players less for loosing ships in PvP engagements. 

 

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As a player 5 months in the game, I have to agree that new players need some protection.  I started a character on the PVE server and learned how to take TBrigs with my basic cutter.  This gave me money and the ability to trade.  Trade gave me enough money to buy better ships.  I also learned what perks I want. Meanwhile I had climbed a few ranks, bigger crews, etc.  Then I was bored.  There is nothing worth doing on the PVE server when you have a little experience.  Now I'm in OW a lot.  I know how to make money and I'm getting better at fighting other players.  Still can't beat the rock stars with the super mods and hard earned skills, but that's cool, as I can afford the throw away ships for the Patrol Zones.  Being in a clan is a great help and i'm working up my big ship skills and cooperative fighting.  My point is, I learned the game in the early stages in perfect safety and when I moved to the PVP server, we still had the heavy reinforcement in the green.  I continued to learn in slightly more danger and eventually spread my operating radius.  This is what a new player needs.  Frankly, you could get rid of the PVE server if you protected the newbies as they grow up on the PVP.

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7 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

You are a rookie, you see ai fleet and attack. How would you know enemy players can join? 

Did you even read anything I said? LOL

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1 hour ago, Christendom said:

The sandbox mantra is fine and sustainable, just the boundaries of the sandbox need to be clearly defined and not overlap with new player areas.  The devs job should be to get the new player from the steam checkout and into the sandbox safely and moderately aware of how the game works.  

NA does not accomplish that.  I know in most games that are open world MMO style it’ll be days until you’re put into a position to see an enemy.  Here it’s 30 seconds.  Simple protections and zones need to be in place to reach that new player how to play before he gets to the sandbox 

I agree with you on that.

But I will note that 80% of the time I find Rear Admirals (or similar top rank) tagging AI in the reinforcement zone. Maybe I have good luck, or maybe this is just the case. Protect the brand new players, sure. But increase protection for max rank players, no thanks. 

Give the new players a PvE only zone (that they cannot leave or profit from in any way) for the first x amount of ranks. I can get on board with something like that. But the minute US Rear Admirals want more protection in safe zone, I will start fighting.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Capn Rocko said:

I agree with you on that.

But I will note that 80% of the time I find Rear Admirals (or similar top rank) tagging AI in the reinforcement zone. Maybe I have good luck, or maybe this is just the case. Protect the brand new players, sure. But increase protection for max rank players, no thanks. 

Give the new players a PvE only zone (that they cannot leave or profit from in any way) for the first x amount of ranks. I can get on board with something like that. But the minute US Rear Admirals want more protection in safe zone, I will start fighting.

 

 

Why?  Why do you have to demand that someone plays your way?  So what if a Rear Admiral wants to stay safe?  Its his game!

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17 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

Why?  Why do you have to demand that someone plays your way?  So what if a Rear Admiral wants to stay safe?  Its his game!

I'm not demanding anything. Rear Admirals can do what they want. But they will not use new players as an excuse to get the buffs they want if I can help it.  

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9 hours ago, Capn Rocko said:

Then teach them not to get ganked in reinforcement zone lol. This could be lesson #1 in training clan. I'm not saying it's the solution to everything but you cant say it's not a good idea. (Well I guess you can lol)

You claim it's the reason players have left the game. I agree that some have rage quit because of safe zones but many PvP veterans are also not playing the game currently. We have 2 inactive clans in Prussia that were PvPing daily and filling PBs just months ago. The fact is people quit for different reasons. I would argue that the.number 1 reason is boredom. Any negative experience in the game can cause a bored player to quit no matter how small. 

I just find this thread funny in general. The OP had a pretty good original suggestion and the US players turned it into their safe zone problem 😆

I have read this and answered. “Us playets turned it into their safezone problem”

Do you know what you wrote ? ( using LOL is stupid btw, I do not like your attitude, I sometimes forget not only mature players here, but also kids)

*** why would it be clan job to teach newbies green zone mechanics, should be done by the game. Most of those guys are not even in a clan, they quit long before joining.

Edited by AeRoTR
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2 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

using LOL is stupid btw

LOL, how mature.

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@jodgi are you lawyer of your friend? Isn’t it offensive to use capital LOL for no reason. I find it stupid, what is it to do with maturity. Why would you offend someone that you do not know, I am not his friend, did I offend or insult him before ?

Maturity is holding yourself back even if you feel negative. It is blocking the kid inside yourself, so you do not insult or offend other people. This is my understanding, these kind of reactions I used to see from other *special kids when I was small. 

So this is my answer, I will not keep posting on this.

Edited by AeRoTR

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9 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

Maturity is holding yourself back even if you feel negative

You didn't hold back on commenting on his use of "lol".

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@AeRoTR

Half your name is capitals and we are not offended.

The answer to the OP is to use PvE for all players and at a fixed CRAFT and Command level the game unlocks access to the [PvP Caribbean] Server. At this stage he should have covered all the game basics including Co-Op missions and PvE ingame Chat.

On its own this will help the New player in one VERY important step. Game Familiarity which at present he doesn't have. The wider knowledge and the confidence to use GLOBAL Chat for help with allies.

Limited safety zones at best, but when its time to go outside you will understand the dangers and tools you'll need...

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

I have read this and answered. “Us playets turned it into their safezone problem”

Do you know what you wrote ? ( using LOL is stupid btw, I do not like your attitude, I sometimes forget not only mature players here, but also kids)

*** why would it be clan job to teach newbies green zone mechanics, should be done by the game. Most of those guys are not even in a clan, they quit long before joining.

LOL. My suggestion was to automatically put new players into a "training clan" so they can get taught the basics (such as when/where to tag AI fleets) and not have the responsibility fall on the normal clans in the game (who already fail to do this).

I also said it wasn't a perfect idea. But IMO is better than doing something that will help top ranked players. 

Read first before posting 😝

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7 hours ago, Capn Rocko said:

I agree with you on that.

But I will note that 80% of the time I find Rear Admirals (or similar top rank) tagging AI in the reinforcement zone. Maybe I have good luck, or maybe this is just the case. Protect the brand new players, sure. But increase protection for max rank players, no thanks. 

Give the new players a PvE only zone (that they cannot leave or profit from in any way) for the first x amount of ranks. I can get on board with something like that. But the minute US Rear Admirals want more protection in safe zone, I will start fighting.

 

Which is why the game needs to be encouraging players to leave the zones organically rather than wasting dev time altering the zones so other gankers can get in.  If you keep beating down the players with a stick they'll just move elsewhere.  You can't force them to PVP.  If you beat them with a stick occasionally and make sure they get a carrot sometimes maybe they'll leave the zones to see if it's worth it.  

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In EVE players start in a NPC clan, could do a similar thing. IE New British player joins the game and he is automatically in the "Royal Navy" Clan. I think players should be aloud to stay in that clan as long as they like and while in the safe zone they can attack AI and their battles close instantly. Perhaps limiting their ability to engage in pvp would also help. Maybe the players in this "New player" clan would also have to pay part of their earnings like gold/marks in tax to their nation for such protections. When the player is ready they should be able to leave the new player clan and join a player clan, losing the previous protections they had but also not having to pay the "tax".

To do this all activity outside the safe zone I think should be buffed, IE crafting chances, AI drops.

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On 5/22/2018 at 9:25 AM, Aster said:

What if the gulf of panama in the pacific (south of Portobelo) was the new player spawning area. Kind of like the rookie zone in the Bahamas we had. Each nation minus the "Hardcore" ones can have a Non capturable port with the safe zone that entails, to teach them as many of the aspects of the game as possible. Maybe a single free port in the center to show how they work as well. The area should follow the old rookie area rules to attempt to limit ganking in this area, and loot should also be basic/repairs. Ships should also be locked to shallow rates. Once the player feels they are ready to leave the new player area they should be able to click a button in port with a warning kind of like abandoning an outpost and be permanently moved to their nations capitol.

What about doing ^^^this to start with allowing you to to get to  Lieutenant Commander rank add a free port that has rolling PB’s ever 2 hours with no towers you join and it splits players between side A & B unless you in a group which puts the group on one side and fill players so the sides are even and add a new mission mortar missions so you get to try them out, also add the tutorial up to the exams to get the reps and the 2 ships 

1 hour ago, Aster said:

In EVE players start in a NPC clan, could do a similar thing. IE New British player joins the game and he is automatically in the "Royal Navy" Clan. I think players should be aloud to stay in that clan as long as they like and while in the safe zone they can attack AI and their battles close instantly. Perhaps limiting their ability to engage in pvp would also help. Maybe the players in this "New player" clan would also have to pay part of their earnings like gold/marks in tax to their nation for such protections. When the player is ready they should be able to leave the new player clan and join a player clan, losing the previous protections they had but also not having to pay the "tax".

To do this all activity outside the safe zone I think should be buffed, IE crafting chances, AI drops.

Then add this and enter the final exam which allows you to get to post captain and gives you a tanky indefatigable for missions while in this AI clan max rank would be commodore you have to find a true clan or go create a clan to progress to top rank  

edit: doing the exam does not give the post captain rank but rather unlocks it.

Edited by Rebrall
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9 hours ago, Rebrall said:

Then add this and enter the final exam which allows you to get to post captain and gives you a tanky indefatigable for missions while in this AI clan max rank would be commodore you have to find a true clan or go create a clan to progress to top rank  

edit: doing the exam does not give the post captain rank but rather unlocks it.

Hey! This post is about how to keep new players in game, not on how to chase them more rapidly.

A real new player cannot do the final exam. Listen to the video posted by Rediii about “how to pass the final exam” (https://youtu.be/vPMsMv51lR4). Some guy asked his cousin to do the tutorial. The cousin got stucked to the dismasting exam and was unable to go further.

I made a test. I opened a brand new account. With this account, I made no combat mission and no fleet mission. I made PvP patrol missions and I attacked IA fleets in KPR, Belize and shallow patrol mission areas. I limited my ships to the 7th rate only. In around 30 hours, I was M/C, without trying to promote as rapidly as possible (I made trade, set-up buildings and began crafting).

So, I think that a real new player can go to Master and Commander in 50 hours around. But really, I don’t think that he could complete the final exam with 50 hours in game. If the final exam is a mandatory for progressing to Master and Commander, new players would stay stuck in Cerberus and most of them would leave the game even more rapidly.

If we want to keep new players in game, adding more steps in the he initiatory route is not the way to go!

 

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57 minutes ago, Eleazar de Damas said:

Hey! This post is about how to keep new players in game, not on how to chase them more rapidly.

A real new player cannot do the final exam. Listen to the video posted by Rediii about “how to pass the final exam” (https://youtu.be/vPMsMv51lR4). Some guy asked his cousin to do the tutorial. The cousin got stucked to the dismasting exam and was unable to go further.

I made a test. I opened a brand new account. With this account, I made no combat mission and no fleet mission. I made PvP patrol missions and I attacked IA fleets in KPR, Belize and shallow patrol mission areas. I limited my ships to the 7th rate only. In around 30 hours, I was M/C, without trying to promote as rapidly as possible (I made trade, set-up buildings and began crafting).

So, I think that a real new player can go to Master and Commander in 50 hours around. But really, I don’t think that he could complete the final exam with 50 hours in game. If the final exam is a mandatory for progressing to Master and Commander, new players would stay stuck in Cerberus and most of them would leave the game even more rapidly.

If we want to keep new players in game, adding more steps in the he initiatory route is not the way to go!

 

i think you miss read my entire post fyi 

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11 hours ago, Aster said:

In EVE players start in a NPC clan, could do a similar thing. IE New British player joins the game and he is automatically in the "Royal Navy" Clan. I think players should be aloud to stay in that clan as long as they like and while in the safe zone they can attack AI and their battles close instantly. Perhaps limiting their ability to engage in pvp would also help. Maybe the players in this "New player" clan would also have to pay part of their earnings like gold/marks in tax to their nation for such protections. When the player is ready they should be able to leave the new player clan and join a player clan, losing the previous protections they had but also not having to pay the "tax".

To do this all activity outside the safe zone I think should be buffed, IE crafting chances, AI drops.

This seems like a very good solution

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Thanks for the interest in keeping players in the game.

I have read the thread so far and have some changes in my thoughts. What do we want? Player retention! Game growth and higher player numbers. That means getting Noobs to stay and not letting older seasoned players get bored and leave. We need to think of overall game numbers on at any given time not just server numbers.

First the Noobs. Playing on the PVP server should not be seen as a right but as a goal, something that needs to be earned. Something prestigious. A badge of honor. I think we want them brought up to the point where they can hold their own and enjoy the game whether it is PVPing or PVEing. I still think that the PVE server is the place to do that and that it's best use is as part of the tutorial. That means we have to have the ability to tag human players on the PVE server and the one who has been tagged needs to be able to decline the tag. Added bonus, those that simply don't like PVP get the thrill of added content and can stay there if they want and just enjoy their PVE life style as they do now. Noobs should not just level up in rank with XP they need to earn it. When they think they are ready they take the exam for the next rank and with some good mentoring they will level reasonably fast. When they reach Master and Commander rank the PVP server unlocks for them and they can join it if they wish. You cannot call it seal clubbing by that time. PVP server becomes the hard core that many crave. A server full of prey and hunters which I personally think would be exciting. Even PVErs might find it occasionally thrilling. 

Now the Veterans. To have higher numbers we need to retain them too. One of the things that Veterans need to have instilled in them is that they have achieved a high honor and that with that honor comes the responsibility of teaching Noobs. Insuring that we have another generation of Noobs who will hopefully become Veterans. What I hear over and over again is, "I sail and sail and can't find any PVP so I get frustrated, log off and go back to real life." I envision those three islands I talked about as meeting places for PVP as well as an easy way to transfer to the other server to do some Noob mentoring when you're finished with your daily bashing. I think that Noob mentoring by Veteran players is a key to retaining them and properly integrating them into the PVP society making everyone's experience better. The only way we'll get most of the Veterans to think of it and get them over to the PVE server to mentor is make it fun for them. That is where they are going to find new recruits for their clans and such. You would dock as in any other port, click a button and pop out in you home capital on the PVE server. On the return trip you end up at your ship in the island port and have to run the gauntlet of hunters waiting to get you. You can only TP home when you're outside the green zone. No ship, or goods transfer of any kind. Behind the scenes the game just logs you out of one server and into another Could be an option at your home capital too. But I do think we need places where vets can reliably find hunting. The islands would provide that and more reliable open world traffic because they would be destination points that could be easily sailed to. Also on the PVP server we need to make it compleatly clan based outside of the nations and we need to greatly reduce them in size, they are only needed for solo players and I haven't figured that out yet, how to best accommodate them.

There are so many other games out there calling out to people for their time. This is largely a niche game and if we want to have larger numbers it needs to be fun and desirable for as many people as we can get. Not everyone is like me and satisfied to just play in a sandbox with a story in my head.

Now I've got to get back to real life.

Fair sailing Capts and Devs. Have a great day/night all. 

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On 5/22/2018 at 7:11 AM, Hethwill said:

I think you are making it inverse.

PvP (server) doesn't imply that you have to pvp, just that you're open to it.

( can happen at any moment )

But this isn't a PvP only server.  We have two servers folks.....

Caribbean which is a PvP/PvE server.

PvE Only (which has zero PvP).

Folks keep trying to think this is a PvP only server and it is not.

254820BD016CDCFC3B6A819878122996CBE4BA0F

4 hours ago, EdWatchmaker said:

There are so many other games out there calling out to people for their time. This is largely a niche game and if we want to have larger numbers it needs to be fun and desirable for as many people as we can get. Not everyone is like me and satisfied to just play in a sandbox with a story in my head.

Now I've got to get back to real life.

Fair sailing Capts and Devs. Have a great day/night all. 

I'll honestly admit what keeps me around is my breaks I take to play other games.   If I haven't been taking them I would of gave up on this game a long time ago. I'll still pop in do my econ, check with my guys in clan and than go play the other games for the eve.  I make the weekends my NA time cause it's when I got most time off.   Been playing this game for over 2 years and it's not ever release so why should I spend all my time into this game?   

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