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Ocean is still to Tanky

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I like the fact that some smaller guns can't pen at all even at point blank range.  6's or even the 9's should not be penning the sides of a first rate.  Maybe stern for rakes but there needs to be a point that they can't just hug and sink a big ship.  Goes with Carros of respected classes too.   @admin Really should bring that area of musket protection into game for us to test as it seems many folks want that.  Any ship get into to close they both effected by the others musket fire and slowly loose crew.   The amount done is according to crew size, marines and maybe other mods (musket and pistols?).   With that I get how folks think guns show auto pen at close range but have you thought of other factors?  If your hugging a ship there is the danger of blow back, back pressure and other things cause they cannons are so close to the other ship.  You could actually cause them the blow up or kill some of of your crew firing that close.  There is a reason you don't shoot certain things at point blank range.  

6 hours ago, Capt Jubal Early said:

She is a superior 1st rate in current meta. I'm not sure if she needs nerfing or the other firsts need buffing to be honest.

Victory needs its 68pd carros for sure.

Santi is just a barn that anyone can hit with a ak47 on fully automatic. Possibly needs a HP buff to make up for it.

A general nerf to LO/WO builds is probably needed at current stage to stop those 1hour 30mins battles where no one dies.

I keep hearing about the 68's, was that the top deck we can put the 42's on?  I tend to just put 12's there cause to add for shooting small ships cause 7 42's don't really do much.  Now if it was 68's?   The other thing is 1st rates and 2nd should honestly be limited to the cannons they actually used.   Victory was the only one that actually had on and used the 42 cannons on the lower deck.  The L'Ocean should have the 36's but no one uses them cause what is it like 1pt damage and reload diffrent for way less pen?   The Pavel should be the only other ship that had 42's.  The Bucc and Santi should have the 36's cause well one is french and the other had 39's which I think in there respected nation (Spain) if I'm correct was more closer to the french 36's over the 42's.  

Folks also have to remember the Santi is a very old design and very very out dated in game compared to the Vict and L'Ocean.  While it has the most guns it's weakness is it's out dated and old design.  So I see no problem with it, it's the fact the Victory is nothing more than a gloryfied 2nd rate in game right now.  It needs some love to it to bring it back into fights.

4 hours ago, Cabral said:

 But you, as an experienced player, did precisely what needs to be done to avoid the demast, the broadside of chains and the broadside to the hull, you hugged him. You know very well that at that distance is hard for him to demast, chain and hit you with all guns, he can't use all decks because he's taller than you. And about boarding? You ain't fool to let your speed go lower than 3,5 knts close to a first rate.

 All that said, you just wanted to destroy his hull at your pleasure with 18pdr.

As I stated above if your to close you can actually blow your cannons up by shooting some one at point blank, so doing the hull hug shouldn't be an auto pen/win.  @admin really should bring in the crew damage thing for us to test. I know they said they didn't like it cause there was no model in game showing it, you just lost crew, but I think it would solve the problem with face huggging to kill someone or get the auto pen.  There should be a zone of being to close that both ships prob couldn't fire without damage there own ship or crew too.

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Historically, Victory carried 68pd Carronades on the weather deck. Two of them mounted on the forecastle, loaded with 500 musket balls each caused that devastating rake Bucentaure received. And Victory is for years older than Santissima - her design even goes back to the Royal George from 1756. The Santi on the other side was launched with 112 guns and later "upgraded" to around 140; those changes made her a pretty poor sailor though (@maturin will confirm).

Bucentaure on the other hand has a heavier broadside than Victory if you equip 42pd Carros, but 2nd rates simply lack the HP to engage 1st rates, especially when they come against the L'Ocean (massive HP pool) and Santi (Firepower, reload shock guaranteed).

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3 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I like the fact that some smaller guns can't pen at all even at point blank range.  6's or even the 9's should not be penning the sides of a first rate.  Maybe stern for rakes but there needs to be a point that they can't just hug and sink a big ship.

That leaves you in a weird place where things like grape can be more penetrative from a large gun than ball is from a smaller gun, why should grapeshot from a 24lb penetrate a 1st rate but ball shot from a 9 not? There's no logic to that due to the way force dissipates between the smaller projectiles. If you were going for a more realistic approach a 6 would be quite hit and miss, but 9 would be fine, although it would do minimal structural damage.

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4 minutes ago, Batman said:

Historically, Victory carried 68pd Carronades on the weather deck. Two of them mounted on the forecastle, loaded with 500 musket balls each caused that devastating rake Bucentaure received. And Victory is for years older than Santissima - her design even goes back to the Royal George from 1756. The Santi on the other side was launched with 112 guns and later "upgraded" to around 140; those changes made her a pretty poor sailor though (@maturin will confirm).

Bucentaure on the other hand has a heavier broadside than Victory if you equip 42pd Carros, but 2nd rates simply lack the HP to engage 1st rates, especially when they come against the L'Ocean (massive HP pool) and Santi (Firepower, reload shock guaranteed).

A lot of first rates carried 68lb Carronades on their weather decks, its not even the largest guns ships equipped either, with some of the Turkish first rates commonly mounting short 300-500lb guns (because why not). Victory is a lot better design than Santissima though, mainly due to the brilliance of Slade which reflects how she behaved in the water and why she is commonly considered the best 1st rate of the 18th century. Its also important to remember Victory removed her 42lb guns in 1803 to improve handling and get a better rate of fire. What isn't really represented is that Victory should be more tanky in general. British Ships are almost always tougher than their French equivalents, who are in turn tougher themselves than comparing Spanish ships, while I can't comment too deeply on L'Ocean, Santissima had a notably thinner structure than Victory.

As a General rule looking at the 3 options I'd personally go:

Victory: Tanky and Agile, able to equip 42s but at cost to speed and manouverability.
Santissima: Fast in a straight line, packs a huge wallop but somewhat poor comparative structure and poor turn, able to equip 36s.
L'Ocean: A kind of middle ground, although her huge nature should be taken into account, able to equip 36s.

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21 minutes ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

That leaves you in a weird place where things like grape can be more penetrative from a large gun than ball is from a smaller gun, why should grapeshot from a 24lb penetrate a 1st rate but ball shot from a 9 not? There's no logic to that due to the way force dissipates between the smaller projectiles. If you were going for a more realistic approach a 6 would be quite hit and miss, but 9 would be fine, although it would do minimal structural damage.

Grape isn't penning the hull, your shooting at the gun ports, windows and well clearing the deck when you shoot grape.  That is why it hurts.  If a ship has full structure than it should do less damage to crew.  Grape wasn't typically shot at the hull, it was used to clear a deck or shoot right up the stern through the very fragile stern of a ship.  That isn't the same topic as we are talking about on hand.  Now that is something to think about though, could grape be used against a small ship to do more damage over all?  Have a Prince pull up next to you hit it with a broad side of grape it prob should kill most the crew and damage the ship pretty bad, well ruin it's paint at least.  Though I still would like some other means like the musket zone brought up by others and Devs said they had in game tested but never put it out for us to test.  That will keep smaller ships off hugging bigger ships if they take a big crew hit damage wise being that close.

4 minutes ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

As a General rule looking at the 3 options I'd personally go:

Victory: Tanky and Agile, able to equip 42s but at cost to speed and manouverability.
Santissima: Fast in a straight line, packs a huge wallop but somewhat poor comparative structure and poor turn, able to equip 36s.
L'Ocean: A kind of middle ground, although her huge nature should be taken into account, able to equip 36s.

I like this, the Vict can keep it's lower HP if it had the better armor, this can go for 2nd rates need some love too.  Bucc being your higher HP, big broad side damage and crew pool, the Pavel being the more faster agile of the two with the smaller HP pool (it's old stats with speed and agility needs to come back).

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21 hours ago, Mr Pellew said:

How about if you don't care about it let the people who want to think about it discuss it and try and come up with an  idea that solves things.

So you think about it and the others don`t ?

People wrote their opinions, as i did.

Read those maybe before being totally convinced, ONLY YOUR opinion matters.

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#donottouchmymodulestralala - that's the essence of all the discussions like this. Please balance this BUT DO NOT DARE TOUCH MY CAKE.

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Victory is a joke in game Bucentaure beats her in most catagories only armor and Armor HP has victory better not to mention its cheaper to craft/buy.

even if we give buc 32pd cannons it will be still beter choice than vic.

 

Ocean is a tank meant too absorb broadsides while santi is firepower king

 

 

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16 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

Victory is a lot better design than Santissima though, mainly due to the brilliance of Slade which reflects how she behaved in the water and why she is commonly considered the best 1st rate of the 18th century. Its also important to remember Victory removed her 42lb guns in 1803 to improve handling and get a better rate of fire. What isn't really represented is that Victory should be more tanky in general. British Ships are almost always tougher than their French equivalents, who are in turn tougher themselves than comparing Spanish ships, while I can't comment too deeply on L'Ocean, Santissima had a notably thinner structure than Victory.

As a General rule looking at the 3 options I'd personally go:

Victory: Tanky and Agile, able to equip 42s but at cost to speed and manouverability.
Santissima: Fast in a straight line, packs a huge wallop but somewhat poor comparative structure and poor turn, able to equip 36s.
L'Ocean: A kind of middle ground, although her huge nature should be taken into account, able to equip 36s.

You have no clue of what you are talking about.

Victory was made of oak. Santisima was made with the best woods of Cuba (teak and mahogany) which are far better and tankier than oak. So your point that Victory must be tanky and agile is bullshit.

Also this sentence:  "British Ships are almost always tougher than their French equivalents, who are in turn tougher themselves than comparing Spanish ships" ----> More bullshit

Victory was made based on plans of a spanish 3rd rate called Princesa. It took 3 british equivalent ships a good amount of time to capture her, and even I read in an english written book that the brits put spanish ships as a better design than french and brits. So you'd better read  more before making such a wrong statement.

Santisima fought 5 ships more than 5 hours (even 7 sometimes) before surrendering. So you can guess that the damage she received was huge. 

The only thing that favours L'Ocean right now is its own shape, more rounded than Santisima, so it bounces a lot more. 

Santisima should be the tankier 1st rate, with Victory more agile and L'Ocean in the middle. 

 

Edit: I found the book-----> https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9811256-the-fighting-temeraire

And here you have :

d9394ce8bb686911d0879f0fc1cce564o.jpg

 

Edited by _Alucard_

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British ships may have been considered tougher because of the difference in tactics.  The French tended to favour targeting masts and rigging in an attempt to cripple an enemy, whilst the Brits aimed 'twixt wind and water'....(the hull for all of you less poetic souls).

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19 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

A lot of first rates carried 68lb Carronades on their weather decks, its not even the largest guns ships equipped either, with some of the Turkish first rates commonly mounting short 300-500lb guns (because why not). Victory is a lot better design than Santissima though, mainly due to the brilliance of Slade which reflects how she behaved in the water and why she is commonly considered the best 1st rate of the 18th century. Its also important to remember Victory removed her 42lb guns in 1803 to improve handling and get a better rate of fire. What isn't really represented is that Victory should be more tanky in general. British Ships are almost always tougher than their French equivalents, who are in turn tougher themselves than comparing Spanish ships, while I can't comment too deeply on L'Ocean, Santissima had a notably thinner structure than Victory.

As a General rule looking at the 3 options I'd personally go:

Victory: Tanky and Agile, able to equip 42s but at cost to speed and manouverability.
Santissima: Fast in a straight line, packs a huge wallop but somewhat poor comparative structure and poor turn, able to equip 36s.
L'Ocean: A kind of middle ground, although her huge nature should be taken into account, able to equip 36s.

I don't think it was 'a lot'.

While up to 2 were authorised I think that they were not commonly fitted (and the authorised poop deck 12-24lb carronades were also seldom carried as many captains felt they added excessive confusion to the command area).

In 1794, the authorised carronade establishment was 2 carronades on the forecastle (32s on 1st to 3rd rates, 24s on the 4th rate 64s, plus 6 (often not carried) on the roundhouse (poop) (24s on 1st rate, 18s on 2nd to 4th rate 64s).

The largest 5th rated frigates carried 6 32s on the quarter deck, 2 on the forecastle, with the smaller 32 gun ships carrying 4 and 2 24s respectively.


The two 68s fitted to Victory at Trafalgar were those fitted to Nelson's commands and transferred from ship to ship from 1793 onwards as he moved around the fleet. These were the only pair of 68s indicated as present at Trafalgar (128 32lb carronades listed, along with 6 24s, 30 18s and 18 12s), and the establishment of 68s was only a pair 'where the ship would bear them' between 1781 and the new establishment of 1794. They do not however appear to have been common even during this period, with Nelson getting his in 1793 for the Agamemnon - between 1807 and 1813 there are noted only "two ships of the line and several bomb vessels" equipped with this type of carronade. It is not a common, nor widely deployed type.



 

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On 5/22/2018 at 7:27 PM, Batman said:

Victory is based on Royal George from 1756.

 

 

Ok, use google translator with this to find out what ship was Royal George based on:

Al mando del capitán de fragata Pablo Agustín de Aguirre y su segundo el también capitán de fragata D. Francisco de León y Guzmán , el 8 de abril de 1740, el Princesa, avista un escuadrón inglés. Lo componen los navíos Oxford, Lennox y Kent, también de 70 cañones, que comienzan a perseguirlo. Para los británicos fue relativamente fácil alcanzar al Princesa, pues éste había perdido un mastelero por accidente y se hallaba disminuido de vela, pero su captura resultó mucho más complicada. Pese a la inferioridad numérica, seis horas de intenso combate fueron necesarias para rendir el Princesa. Dura el combate hasta las diez de la noche, desarboló a uno de ellos y puso en fuga a otro. Las bajas del navío español fueron 70 muertos y 80 heridos. (ver observaciones)

El Princesa era un navío de dos puentes, largo de eslora en comparación con los navíos ingleses de su mismo porte, muy estable y con la artillería floreada, pudiendo hacer uso de ella en todo momento, un buque delicioso, en palabras de sus captores o el buque glorioso, como lo definió uno de sus comandantes una vez puesto al servicio de la Armada Británica. A su llegada a Portsmouth el navío causó una gran admiración, era notablemente más grande que sus homólogos ingleses, tanto como un 100 cañones inglés, y sus cualidades marineras excepcionales.

Esto llevó al Almirantazgo inglés a revisar los Estatutos de 1719, que ya habían recibido algunas modificaciones con las Propuestas de 1733. El proceso de revisión tuvo sus primeros frutos en las Propuestas de 1741 y concluyó con los Estatutos de 1745. Los famosos Royal George de 1756, Britannia de 1762, e incluso el célebre Victory de 1765, fueron una copia agrandada del navío español al inspirarse en los gálibos del viejo sistema de Gaztañeta. John Finchan escribió:

  • "...debido a que la ciencia de la arquitectura naval recibió mayor estímulo en España que en cualquier otro lugar, los buques de este país estaban adelantados con respecto a los de Europa septentrional en lo que se refiere a su excelente trazado, cuya consecuencia era su mayor andar y otras buenas cualidades. Esta superioridad se demostró en algunos de los navíos españoles capturados en la batalla de Trafalgar".

Está comprobado que un navío español de dos puentes y 74 cañones era cerca de 15 pies más largo, 6 pies más ancho y 4 pies de calado que el similar británico y poseía, además, las ventajas de una mayor estabilidad y un superior aguante al efecto de la artillería.

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On 5/22/2018 at 3:37 PM, _Alucard_ said:

You have no clue of what you are talking about.

Victory was made of oak. Santisima was made with the best woods of Cuba (teak and mahogany) which are far better and tankier than oak. So your point that Victory must be tanky and agile is bullshit.

Also this sentence:  "British Ships are almost always tougher than their French equivalents, who are in turn tougher themselves than comparing Spanish ships" ----> More bullshit

Victory was made based on plans of a spanish 3rd rate called Princesa. It took 3 british equivalent ships a good amount of time to capture her, and even I read in an english written book that the brits put spanish ships as a better design than french and brits. So you'd better read  more before making such a wrong statement.

Santisima fought 5 ships more than 5 hours (even 7 sometimes) before surrendering. So you can guess that the damage she received was huge. 

The only thing that favours L'Ocean right now is its own shape, more rounded than Santisima, so it bounces a lot more. 

Santisima should be the tankier 1st rate, with Victory more agile and L'Ocean in the middle. 

 

Edit: I found the book-----> https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9811256-the-fighting-temeraire

And here you have :

d9394ce8bb686911d0879f0fc1cce564o.jpg

 

You seem rather upset with the things I have said, so I will take some time to clarify them and explain to you why I said them, there's no need to get emotional about the points I have made or claim pretty much everything I have said is complete bullshit, which frankly isn't true. I hadn't really wished to go into great detail why because its not overly relevant to the discussion and reality is that gameplay comes first, but even then you have to consider the compromises made and how the game is.

Firstly Victory isn't just made of any old oak, she was made from the finest select oak from the Weald, where heavy clay soil makes a much slower growing, denser and tougher timber than typical European white oak, which when compared to the typical woods used in Havana makes it more damage resistant than Cuban Teak, but not quite as strong as the Mahogany available on the island. Looking more at detail, teak is held in high esteem due to the species that are grown in Asia, which is a much better wood type than its American cousin, although it still retains similar rot resistance characteristics with exposure to sea water. Cuban Mahogany on the other hand is harder and denser than English Oak, but also less resistant to rupturing under weight. You can compare the three woods here, but do bear in mind local growing conditions.

http://www.wood-database.com/english-oak/
http://www.wood-database.com/cuban-mahogany/
http://www.wood-database.com/teak/

The differences between English Oak and the Teak and Mahogany of Victory and Santissima aren't enough to make up the dramatic difference in structural thickness, Victory being built 2ft thick at the waterline, whilst Santissima is roughly 1.6ft thick, a difference of almost 25%, something that not only wouldn't be made up for by wood types but realistically should reflect in the game when changing the wood of the ships being built, meaning a typical Oak built Santissima will always be flimsier than an Oak built Victory, something that goes through all woods.

Secondly, Victory has very little influence taken from Princessa, while Slade drew inspiration from all kinds of prominent ships and captures Victory is almost identical to HMS Valiant, a previous design by Slade. HMS Valiant is a 74 gun ship who's lines are taken from HMS Invincible (l'Invincible) another 74, a capture from the French navy during the war for Austrian succession. While there are a couple of minor differences comparing the hull lines of the two gives a staggering resemblance, with minor structural changes because you can't just scale ships up and down and still retain good characteristics, this is also largely why Victory behaved much more like a 3rd rate than its typical contemporary 1sts, thus the reasoning behind making her agile.

Looking further into the comment where I said about British ships being stronger than French, in turn being stronger than Spanish ships this is mainly a doctrinal thing, it by no means makes Spanish ships bad ships. The Spanish simply chose sailing characteristics over toughness, which is partly due to natural geography with good ship building timber being more scarce in Iberia than Britain and France but also due to things like the vast expanse of their colonial empire, Spanish ships tended to be much better cruisers than British ships, able to complete journeys in better time and also being somewhat more weatherly. So referring to your point on consideration of Spanish ships being the finest in the world, it depends entirely on what parameters you judge them by, in terms of sailing, definitely. Turning back to wood Its also important to remember Southern European Oak being a little lighter and weaker than Northern European Oak, which combined with the more limited supply is the reasoning behind the magnificence of the naval facilities in Havana and their use of tropical woods.

Moving on from history and going back to gameplay, it would be incredibly unbalanced to give Santissima the most tankiness, not only is it ahistorical because of its much thinner hull, but you would end up with a ship that's not only faster but also heavier armed and heavier armoured which necessarily creates a ridiculous Wasa style meta in first rates much worse than the current Ocean issues.

Either way I do hope Santissima gets a nicer design at some point, currently Santissima model is just an ugly red brick which is a shame because she is such an iconic ship but then I suppose the in game appearance reflects that rather inaccurate replica in Alicante.

5946736897_fd44a59e90_b.jpg

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We must not attribute strength to specific ships, based on their historical performance.  Naval combat at the time of Trafalgar had more determining factors than thickness of hull or wood type. British ships of the day were better utilized pound for pound than the Spanish and French ships due to training and institutional knowledge.  They spent more time at sea and practised their gunnery more often.  Victory may be the "Battle Honours" winner in real life, but that is because she was superbly handled throughout her history.  Many British captains would swear that a captured French ship was superior to British built.  The problem with French ships was that they spent the majority of their lives in harbour.  Spanish ships suffered from terrible maintenance practices and a complete lack of training.  It's perfectly fine if Victory is not statistically tougher than another ship.  Toughness in the game is measured as it was in history....By how well a Captain fights his ship.  Look at the painting of Chesapeake and Shannon entering Halifax harbour..

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13 hours ago, _Alucard_ said:

Ok, use google translator with this to find out what ship was Royal George based on:

 

No,  señor


 

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