Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
HachiRoku

Ocean is still to Tanky

Recommended Posts

Need to aim high, almost at the weather deck to penetrate Ocean with full health and stacked thickness mods. That's not easy to do from a Trinco at 0 meter distance..

But can't the Trinco carry pood's? That's a perfect solution for this issue very absurd issue (5. rate vs 1. rate wtf!?)¬†ūüėÜ

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

I'm a bit late to the conversation but why should that actually matter, Constitution has very similar hull thickness to Victory historically, both at around 2ft at the waterline which as far as I understand is give or take a few cm the same as l'Ocean. Why should an 18 long have no issue penetrating constitution but not Ocean? While History shouldn't be the be all and end all of balance it does beg some questions, especially with the current relationship between structure and thickness, an 18lb gun shouldn't struggle the way it does at such close range.

No cannon should have a problem penning at 200m with good angles. I consider 10 to 20 degrees a good penning angle. When you get into the physics about the shape of the connies hull the funny thing is she probably had more effective armour than victory because of her hull shape. The devs are remodeling the connie and I cannot wait for what they do to it. The Connie hull shape is belle poule 2.0 on steroids. It is a very very difficult issue to deal with because certain ships should have an advantage over others because of hull shape. The connie with a correct model would be a pain in the ass to fight and I really don't know how to fix that. Its kind of a real life meta ship because of the armour and speed :) I would not see an issue with bigger class ships having the same Armour. The thing is that the santis model(not just santi) in game is not as good as the oceans. The santi in real life was not as flat as it is in game. How do you fix something like this? Give the santi more armour to make up for the lack of curves? 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remove all modules / upgrades /poods @devs let player skill decide who wins.

This game should be skill based don't make another WoW.

Edited by Shrez
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

why should a noob that cant sail an ocean be protected by so many shit mechanics?

Totally uncalled for comment. You may want to reformulate that.

Sorry to say, but this is where "you have the reason on your side" becomes "you just lost it".

It is not what you say, it is how you say it.

Respectfully.

~S~ 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

You do not want understand because you don't like the fact that you will need to learn how to sail because other than tanking,  90% of forum users are complete trash. Notice the way only noobs up vote your post? Maybe you're afraid ai will be harder to farm? A trinco will never be better than a 1st rate even if they fix the armor but since you don't get the point of this topic I think it is useless explaining to you... 18 longs are the guns for aggys and ingers and were also used on larger ships in real life. We are not having a discussion about if they should pen....the devs stated they already do/should. In practice they don't effectively do fuck all. They are useless on arguably even heavy connies at the slightest angles at 150m. Most people don't complain because they farm oak ai and have no idea what they are talking about. This includes you. Bigger guns were not always better and in real life 32 pounders were preferred over 42s. An 18 pounder is a massive gun but it's effective range is a joke. Same goes for 12s. If the ocean is fine why is the Santi useless? 

i do understand mate ... and i wasnt having a go at you ... back in the day  the captain of the trinc .. connie or agga  wouldnt have gone near the l ocean  one on one ... because they would have died ... the game has to simulate that somehow .. because real life death isnt an option the devs can put in ...( though i sometimes wonder that they try .. desath by boredom lol)  ... so the only way they can stop someone wanting to attack a bigger ship in a lesser ship  is  tp make it a worthless exercise

As your a memeber of the elite 10% i understand your frustration ,,, but without us trash you wouldnt have anyone to hunt and if i cant beat the oak ai¬† whats the point¬† ūüėä

 

 

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Cabral said:

 I saw the video battle in question, what happened was that Hachi was so frustraded because he was the only 5th rate in the battle and couldn't do s***. All spanish first and second rates were sunk by similar ships, just not by him.

 If we want to return to the same meta of the past we can call back PODW clan and start using again belle poules loaded with carronades, hug big ships and sink first rate fleets with frigates.

:)

So this thread is about this...

Ok, no need to read further then ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Grundgemunkey said:

i do understand mate ... and i wasnt having a go at you ... back in the day  the captain of the trinc .. connie or agga  wouldnt have gone near the l ocean  one on one ... because they would have died ... the game has to simulate that somehow .. because real life death isnt an option the devs can put in ...( though i sometimes wonder that they try .. desath by boredom lol)  ... so the only way they can stop someone wanting to attack a bigger ship in a lesser ship  is  tp make it a worthless exercise

As your a memeber of the elite 10% i understand your frustration ,,, but without us trash you wouldnt have anyone to hunt and if i cant beat the oak ai¬† whats the point¬† ūüėä

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Fenris said:

:)

So this thread is about this...

Ok, no need to read further then ;)

 

You guys are not getting the point... A 1st rate has 12 pd guns on the upper gun deck and those guns do not pen at less than 50m if the ships is angeled more than 10 degrees. 

The point here is not about frigate vs 1st rate it's about how the L'Ocean is the strongest 1st rate because of it's hull shape and thickness. 

 

I like Havelocks Idea about reworking the BR on it so other ships get more vaible for PBs.  

 

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Mr Pellew said:

You guys are not getting the point... A 1st rate has 12 pd guns on the upper gun deck and those guns do not pen at less than 50m if the ships is angeled more than 10 degrees. 

The point here is not about frigate vs 1st rate it's about how the L'Ocean is¬†the strongest 1st rate because of it's hull shape and thicknessÔĽŅ.¬†

 

I like Havelocks Idea about reworking the BR on it so other ships get more vaible for PBs.  

 

 

 

:) sweet.....

We do understand what is this all about, but i really do not care about 12 pd penetration..just not firing them at great distance. And maybe you overestimate your interpretation abilities, telling us we don`t understand what is this all about.

Since thickness upgrades were downgraded, me personally is fine with thickness/hp as it is, and i personally don`t give a shit about 18 pds not being able to penetrate a 1st rate at close range, or doing not so much damage, as some people would like to. Call her Ocean, Santi or Vic.

It comes with the boat you are in, and you should remember that all 1st, 2nd and 3rd rates have 42,32 and 24 pds on their decks, which are actually doing the most damage to those big boats, so if you use a smaller boat, and your cannons don`t penetrate the Ocean "because of the shape of her hull", then sail a bigger one.

So, you may connect or separate a threadmakers engagement in a Trincomalee vs Ocean, that is up to you, fact is that SMALLER SHIPS with SMALLER GUNS, or SMALLER GUNS on a BIGGER SHIP can NOT do much damage to a ship, which has 12 % thickness upgrade, plus basic thickness value depending on her woods she`s been made of.

Otherwise stop messing around with BR, HP, Thickness and all that, because too many are tired of this BS, too many people want a game that is working, and its worth playing.

If you want a solution, a fair and sustainable one,  there are only 2 possibilities, and both of them you probably won`t like:

1. Remove all heavy woods from game, only OAK remains as THE shipbuilding wood, as it was historically, considering 95% of all ships built in "our" era.

2. Remove ALL thickness upgrades.

What would you like to have? Plague or Cholera?

;)

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As good as a simulation as we can get :) 

Hard to let go the candy than ensures half the battle won, in all cases, frigates, sols, thickness, rigging, whatever...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

As good as a simulation as we can get :) 

Hard to let go the candy than ensures half the battle won, in all cases, frigates, sols, thickness, rigging, whatever...

Help!! Someone get me a translator in here, Stat!

:p

Edited by Liam790
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Liam790 said:

Help!! Someone get me a translator in here, Stat!

ūüėõ

Modules are the devil, the blade that cuts the cake in slices, the gluton that messes up the cake. No balance once there's no cake left.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Fenris said:

 

We do understand what is this all about, but i really do not care about 12 pd penetration..just not firing them at great distance. And maybe you overestimate your interpretation abilities, telling us we don`t understand what is this all about.

Since thickness upgrades were downgraded, me personally is fine with thickness/hp as it is, and i personally don`t give a shit about 18 pds not being able to penetrate a 1st rate at close range, or doing not so much damage, as some people would likÔĽŅe to. CÔĽŅall her Ocean, Santi or Vic.

It comes with the boat you are in, and you should remember that all 1st, 2nd and ÔĽŅ3rd rates have 42,32 and 24 pds on their decks, which are actually doing the most damage to those big boats, so if you use a smaller boat, and your cannons don`t penetrate the Ocean "because of the shape of her hull", then sail a bigger one.

So, you may connect or separate a threadmakers engagement in a Trincomalee vs Ocean, that is up to you, fact is that SMALLER SHIPS with SMALLER GUNS, or SMALLER GUNS on a BIGGER SHIP can NOT do much damage tÔĽŅo a ship, which has 12 % thickness upÔĽŅgrade, plus basic thickness value depending on her woods she`s been made of.

Otherwise stop messing around with BR, HP, Thickness and all that, because too many are tired of this BS, too many people want a game that is working, anÔĽŅd its worth playing.

 

 

How about if you don't care about it let the people who want to think about it discuss it and try and come up with an  idea that solves things. 

So we were talking about close range egnagements not longe range fights. Everyone is ok with small guns not doing anything at 250m+. 

On a full pen broadside of a Vic the 42s and 24s deal 1785 damage. The 12s deal 1078 assumed you use 12s on the weather deck. I would say that's some quite significant damage if it pens. 

Your argument sail bigger ships than is pointless becuase even on the big ships in case of the Victory you miss about 37% of your damage on a close range pass on an Ocean. 

Edited by Mr Pellew

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Modules are the devil, the blade that cuts the cake in slices, the gluton that messes up the cake. No balance once there's no cake left.

See I think modules are great. I will grant you a few are a bit to effective, Elite Spanish for example. (Although it was perfect as a super good upgrade that was super rare... but buffing bottles kind of buggered that up)

But on the flip side, most mods are now available to all at reasonable prices due to the bottles (Carta being only a little over a mill for example). If people want them, they can get them. Not sure there is an issue. Removing them would hurt the game in my opinion.

Edited by Liam790
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mr Pellew said:

You guys are not getting the point... A 1st rate has 12 pd guns on the upper gun deck and those guns do not pen at less than 50m if the ships is angeled more than 10 degrees. 

The point here is not about frigate vs 1st rate it's about how the L'Ocean is the strongest 1st rate because of it's hull shape and thickness. 

 

I like Havelocks Idea about reworking the BR on it so other ships get more vaible for PBs.  

 

 

 

i do get the point .... your not getting my point that the game is not a simulation ... the devs have to take away real world physics to make up for game play and balance  .... each first rate has a different attribute   l ocean is probably the tankiest ... santi more fire power... victory most agile and fastest .... which way do you want to play take your pick

take away the l oceans hull shape and thickness ... everyone will sail santi .... take awat santis firepower everyone will sail vic .... it goes on and on ... until you are left with 3  1st rates that can be taken out by a bellona

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that it should not be a simulation but devs stated every guns should pen at close range with a decent angle and currently they do not. 

 

Cooshing any other 1st rate over an Ocean atm puts you into a disadvantageous situation in a fight and as you just said every 1st rate should have their strength and weaknesses. But it can not be a coincidence that allmost everyone only sails Oceans for RvR. Seems like the ship has a bit too many strenth or not enough weaknesses at least in my opinion. 

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

L'Ocean is a bit too powerful. reduce Hp and vic needs a bit of love in terms of leakiness, then we have a fairly well balanced 1st rate rota. Also give Vic a bit better turn rate and acceleration. would be awesome in small scale skirmish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1st rates have to be deadly, no one in any ship less a 3rd rate can pen a 1st

they are already slow in everything, if they become penetrable also by 5th rates they are totally useless...why use a 1st if i can use a 5th and easily kill everything using my superior manouverability, speed and penetration?

no, 1st cannot be penetrated by a 5th even if 5th use 42 long...5th can only fire at sails and stern rake preparing the target for bigger ship that finish the job boarding or sinking

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Up the health pool, lower the thickness a tad. I don't understand this argument of 5th v 1st rate. How often are you getting killed by a 5th rate broadside to broadside in a 1st? You make it sound like anyone can hop in a frigate and do that sort of thing. Truth is you'd have to be a real noob to lose to a trinc in that manner.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, huliotkd said:

1st rates have to be deadly, no one in any ship less a 3rd rate can pen a 1st

they are already slow in ÔĽŅeverything, if they become penetrable also by 5th rates they are totally useless...why use a 1st if i can use a 5th and easily kill everything using my superior manouverability, speed and penetration?

ÔĽŅ no, 1st cannot be penetrated by a 5th even if 5th use 42 long...5th can only fire at sails and stern rake preparing the target for bigger ship that finish the job boarding or sinking

Thats just not true, like people have pointed out, the USS constitution was probably tougher to pen than HMS victory due to similar thickness and better angling. And it wouldn't matter, victory could obviously obliterate the Connie in a straight fight, the reason being more guns (and larger, able to absorb more damage etc.)

First rates weren't impenetrable ironclad gods, ships didn't go near them because of their firepower, not their armor. So if anything, first rate hp should be buffed and armor should be reduced across the board. Perhaps buff 42 and 24 pounder damage as well, so they can "oneshot" frigates. IMO the relationship between frigates and lineships was much better in sea trials where everybody could pen everybody at close range. 

"5th can only fire at sails and stern rake preparing the target for bigger ship that finish the job"

Yeah, if a 5th rate tries to go all jack sparrow on a first rate they will get obliterated in 1 or 2 broadsides. I hate to join the elitists here but if you are on a 1st rate and get outright broadside to broadside sank by a frigate what the hell are you doing? A first rate has more firepower on its lower gun deck than most frigates have on both broadsides of their entire ship. (exception maybe constitution but connie is basically a lineship in this game, she gets outran by aggies half the time) Even if the frigate pens it will be like 2-5% of the lineships hp on that side. Lineship fires back, frigate is down to half or a quarter on that side. If the frigate angles, shoot his masts they won't last long against 42 and 24 pounders, at which point you can just board or sink them at your leisure.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Totally uncalled for comment. You may want to reformulate that.

Sorry to say, but this is where "you have the reason on your side" becomes "you just lost it".

It is not what you say, it is how you say it.

Respectfully.

~S~ 

Changed shit to bad. Please don't take stuff out of context because 100% of the comment is true. There has never been an excuse to loosing a ship to hugging. It doesn't work. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

i do understand mate ... and i wasnt having a go at you ... back in the day  the captain of the trinc .. connie or agga  wouldnt have gone near the l ocean  one on one ... because they would have died ... the game has to simulate that somehow .. because real life death isnt an option the devs can put in ...( though i sometimes wonder that they try .. desath by boredom lol)  ... so the only way they can stop someone wanting to attack a bigger ship in a lesser ship  is  tp make it a worthless exercise

As your a memeber of the elite 10% i understand your frustration ,,, but without us trash you wouldnt have anyone to hunt and if i cant beat the oak ai¬† whats the point¬† ūüėä

 

 

 

By your reply I can judge you still don't understand. Just imagine armour was gone for a sec and a frigates could pen first rates from any distance. There is still not a chance in the world a frigate player can beat a ship of the line in the hands of your average player. 1 broadside of balls to masts. Masts gone. One broadside of chain. 50% sails gone. 1 boradside to hull. 80% HP gone. 1 round of boarding. ship gone. 

You keep going back to the point of frigates vs 1st rates.... This is what you don't get. Do you know what a meta is? Oceans are the only ship being used in port battles. All other ships are BR fillers and circle cappers. Noone is penetrating the ocean properly and this goes for 24 pounders and 32 pounders to an extent. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She is a superior 1st rate in current meta. I'm not sure if she needs nerfing or the other firsts need buffing to be honest.

Victory needs its 68pd carros for sure.

Santi is just a barn that anyone can hit with a ak47 on fully automatic. Possibly needs a HP buff to make up for it.

A general nerf to LO/WO builds is probably needed at current stage to stop those 1hour 30mins battles where no one dies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

There is still not a chance in the world a frigate player can beat a ship of the line in the hands of your average player. 1 broadside of balls to masts. Masts gone. One broadside of chain. 50% sails gone. 1 boradside to hull. 80% HP gone. 1 round of boarding. ship gone. 

 But you, as an experienced player, did precisely what needs to be done to avoid the demast, the broadside of chains and the broadside to the hull, you hugged him. You know very well that at that distance is hard for him to demast, chain and hit you with all guns, he can't use all decks because he's taller than you. And about boarding? You ain't fool to let your speed go lower than 3,5 knts close to a first rate.

 All that said, you just wanted to destroy his hull at your pleasure with 18pdr.

Edited by Cabral

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Cabral said:

 But you, as an experienced player, did precisely what needs to be done to avoid the demast, the broadside of chains and the broadside to the hull, you hugged him. You know very well that at that distance is hard for him to demast you, he can't use all decks because he's taller than you. And about boarding? You ain't fool to let your speed go lower than 3,5 knts close to a first rate.

 All that said, you just wanted to destroy his hull at your pleasure with 18pdr.

What needs to be done to avoid demasts and chains? Please tell me If I dont have the option to go below 3.5 I dont have any way to avoid chain or mast shots. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×