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HachiRoku

Ocean is still to Tanky

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3 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

too many posts .. on this forum are made up of   xyz   is over powered aor so and so ship is still too tanky / fast

mainly because someones favourite ship cant defeat another ... ... hachi .. trinks were never designed to fight first rates ... so nerfing the l ocean so you can breaks the game

in RL big ships were built because the is a direct correlation between hull thickness  cannon load out and the size of the ship to enable it to float ... they wanted big ships with thick hulls so mad irishmen couldnt sink them in 5 th rates

You do not want understand because you don't like the fact that you will need to learn how to sail because other than tanking,  90% of forum users are complete trash. Notice the way only noobs up vote your post? Maybe you're afraid ai will be harder to farm? A trinco will never be better than a 1st rate even if they fix the armor but since you don't get the point of this topic I think it is useless explaining to you... 18 longs are the guns for aggys and ingers and were also used on larger ships in real life. We are not having a discussion about if they should pen....the devs stated they already do/should. In practice they don't effectively do fuck all. They are useless on arguably even heavy connies at the slightest angles at 150m. Most people don't complain because they farm oak ai and have no idea what they are talking about. This includes you. Bigger guns were not always better and in real life 32 pounders were preferred over 42s. An 18 pounder is a massive gun but it's effective range is a joke. Same goes for 12s. If the ocean is fine why is the Santi useless? 

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On 5/19/2018 at 3:21 PM, HachiRoku said:

Not much to say about it other than the ship bounces to much. Yesterday I was in a Trinco with 18 longs and 32 carronades and at 0 meter distance(I was hugging him) I got 6 pens out of 25 balls fired. Angling in general still bounces to much but because the oceans hull is the way it is it makes the ship as we all see the meta. If its the meta there is something wrong. 

Yet realisticaly hugging a ocean would decimate your crew yes meybe oceans bouncing ability should be looked, but in other hand something should be done too prevent 5th rate hugging a 1st rate

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LO/WO builds for PBs didnt become more popular because of the thickness nerfs, but because of the LO buff. Before, in comparison to Teak, LO gave 5% more thickness but had significant drawbacks in speed and overall maneuerability. Now it gives 10% more thickness and 7% more HP. Woods are just unbalanced, thats all.

Now back on topic: Hachi is right, based on hull shape L'Oceans effective thickness is about 10% higher than its actual thickness. This advantage is not calculated into BR which makes it the favourable choice in PBs. Question should be, how to change it? We could start by increasing its BR by 40 and see how it works out.

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1 hour ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

lol

I was expecting that.

I was there when we had balance.

But_Pepperidge_Farm_aint_just_gonna_keep

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5 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

too many posts .. on this forum are made up of   xyz   is over powered aor so and so ship is still too tanky / fast

mainly because someones favourite ship cant defeat another ... ... hachi .. trinks were never designed to fight first rates ... so nerfing the l ocean so you can breaks the game

in RL big ships were built because the is a direct correlation between hull thickness  cannon load out and the size of the ship to enable it to float ... they wanted big ships with thick hulls so mad irishmen couldnt sink them in 5 th rates

Well, while you are right that the Leda-class frigates or any other frigates weren't designend for the purpose of sinking/capturing first rates, I still think that you miss the point. Besides sinking an enemy in a battle wasn't common either and not even the goal.

Of course they could penetrate first rates and do significant damage. They simply didn't do it because no sane man would start such a battle and happily deal with the consequences. And that was mainly the effects of more and heavier cannons of the first rate. Not the thickness of their hull. A full broadside of a first rates means heavy damage to hull or rigging and heavy casualties. And all this back then when most battles were decided because of heavy crew losses and/or an inmobile ship. They didn't fought till their deaths and if losing was inevitable, surrendering wasn't a shame. Possibly one or two broadsides on target would be enough to shatter every will to fight. A frigate wouldn't be able to sustain such an exchange of broadsides to do enough damage. Maybe in theory if everybody on board the frigate would be a crazy suicidal mofo and the line ship crew is completely unaware and drunk as they can be, I can imagine that even a frigate can batter a line ship into surrender. But this is absolutely unrealistic. What I want to say is, that the main reason that single frigates didn't fight single fully capable first rates, wasn't because of their hull thickness. And that's the whole point of Hachi.

Sure, you can't really translate this into the game. Because we are suicidal mofos (and I bet some are drunk too sometimes). We fight to the death. Our ships sink when a imaginary HP and structure bar is empty (and only then grant you magically gold and marks) and last but not least we give a flying fuck about our crew and thus surrender grants us nothing.

This means, that many good frigate players will sometimes attack single first rates. Maybe they are lucky, maybe they die. Consequences for them are relatively low. Of course their chances to win should be low too. I agree that first rates should always have the upper hand due to firepower and crew advantage and I believe this is still the case in game. But it shouldn't be impossible to penetrate a first rate. A single frigate that penetrates them shouldn't be a problem at all. If the frigate has the opportunity to get off a broadside the line ship should have one too I assume. The real danger are rakes as many already mentioned and not broadside to broadside battles with a frigate. A first rate wouldn't lose a broadside exchange. But to give them an even greater advantage because of ridiculous mods and their stacking isn't good. No wonder so many sail around in 3rds and higher. 

Edited by Cecil Selous
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58 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

Yet realisticaly hugging a ocean would decimate your crew yes meybe oceans bouncing ability should be looked, but in other hand something should be done too prevent 5th rate hugging a 1st rate

Especially since a single broadside from a L'Ocean would completely devastate a frigate and maybe even sink it directly and the crew on the L'Ocean would simply kill off the frigate crew with musket fire at this distance aswell. It's about balance first and realism second. Frigates have no business in fighting 1st rates directly and alone and smaller guns should have a harder time dealing with 1st rate armor since the big SOLs aren't as maneuverable. I don't think think the game should be balanced around 24/7 players being mad about not being able to 1 vs 1 a 1st rate in their frigate... 

If they would add the musket fire aura so small ships can not hug much bigger ones without any penalty for extended periods of time, then they could look at rebalancing armor / nerfing it further.

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2 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

If they would add the musket fire aura so small ships can not hug much bigger ones without any penalty for extended periods of time, then they could look at rebalancing armor / nerfing it further.

I agree. Besides my previous post I also think that there should be a penalty to hugging bigger ships. This tactic should not pay off.

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 I believe that 18pdrs should do more damage to L'Ocean at 0 meters but, we need ingame balance. It's not the first time Hachiroku asks to devs to break the game because he likes to sail the trinco, last time he didn't like the trinco turnrate then the devs change it to values similar to surprise turnrate. It was a mistake, then they reverted to todays values.

 I saw the video battle in question, what happened was that Hachi was so frustraded because he was the only 5th rate in the battle and couldn't do s***. All spanish first and second rates were sunk by similar ships, just not by him.

 If we want to return to the same meta of the past we can call back PODW clan and start using again belle poules loaded with carronades, hug big ships and sink first rate fleets with frigates.

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9 minutes ago, Cabral said:

 I believe that 18pdrs should do more damage to L'Ocean at 0 meters but, we need ingame balance. It's not the first time Hachiroku asks to devs to break the game because he likes to sail the trinco, last time he didn't like the trinco turnrate then the devs change it to values similar to surprise turnrate. It was a mistake, then they reverted to todays values.

 I saw the video battle in question, what happened was that Hachi was so frustraded because he was the only 5th rate in the battle and couldn't do s***. All spanish first and second rates were sunk by similar ships, just not by him.

 If we want to return to the same meta of the past we can call back PODW clan and start using again belle poules loaded with carronades, hug big ships and sink first rate fleets with frigates.

Do you have a link to video?

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20 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

Do you have a link to video?

 

  Starts at 02:35:30, now I remember he wasn't the only 5th rate in the battle, but he's the only one complaining.

Edited by Cabral
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23 hours ago, Lovec1990 said:

Yet realisticaly hugging a ocean would decimate your crew yes meybe oceans bouncing ability should be looked, but in other hand something should be done too prevent 5th rate hugging a 1st rate

It is impossible to hug an ocean with a frigate since the ocean can stop and one shot the frigate in boarding. Sinking first rates by hugging worked OK vs noobs when there was no rum and raking with balls devastating. Still vs a good player impossible. Question is why should a noob that cant sail an ocean be protected by so many bad mechanics?

Edited by HachiRoku
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3 hours ago, Cabral said:

 I believe that 18pdrs should do more damage to L'Ocean at 0 meters but, we need ingame balance. It's not the first time Hachiroku asks to devs to break the game because he likes to sail the trinco, last time he didn't like the trinco turnrate then the devs change it to values similar to surprise turnrate. It was a mistake, then they reverted to todays values.

 I saw the video battle in question, what happened was that Hachi was so frustraded because he was the only 5th rate in the battle and couldn't do s***. All spanish first and second rates were sunk by similar ships, just not by him.

 If we want to return to the same meta of the past we can call back PODW clan and start using again belle poules loaded with carronades, hug big ships and sink first rate fleets with frigates.

Incorrect statement 1: The Trincos turn rate was around 2.7-8 before leeway was added. At the time the victory was 2.1. The devs buffed the turn rate of many ships with the new sailing mechanics and almost all were nerfed again. The connie was over nerfed and is still to low imo. The connies turn rate was the one that was far to high. Noone has ever complained about the trincos turn rate being to high because in all fairness she is a well balanced ship other than the fact that carthagena makes her and other frigates op. Module issue and not ship. Trinco cannot/barley stern camp any ship of the line and thats good! 

Incorrect statement 2: I could do damage since I got more marks(18) than 3 other havoc guys in first rates. Look at the assists and ask @Liam or @Pellew

Incorrect statement 3: There NEVER was a bellepoule meta.... This is because a few players managed to sink people in first rates because they didn't know what to do. If you think there was a bellepoule meta what change stopped it? A ship with lower crew cannot hug a bigger ship because except for 2nd rates an ocean will kill any other ship in the game by slowing down and boarding it in 2 rounds max... I did the same thing to an idiot in his bellona with my trinco 2 days ago. Should we balance the game according to noobs or people that know their shit?

You bring nothing but wrong assumptions to this debate and 0 arguments other than personal biff.  If you disagree with me I want to hear a logical reason why 18s should not pen an ocean at 0m. 

I don't post about trade mechanics and rvr mechanics. You know why? Because I know fuckall about them. I do however know about the combat system and I know for a fact as arrogant as this may seem that I know what is better for the combat system than 95% of the community. Sure I could be wrong on some things but I know for a fact that oceans are to tanky otherwise other ships would not be only circle cappers and br fillers in port battles. 

Edited by HachiRoku
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4 hours ago, Havelock said:

LO/WO builds for PBs didnt become more popular because of the thickness nerfs, but because of the LO buff. Before, in comparison to Teak, LO gave 5% more thickness but had significant drawbacks in speed and overall maneuerability. Now it gives 10% more thickness and 7% more HP. Woods are just unbalanced, thats all.

Now back on topic: Hachi is right, based on hull shape L'Oceans effective thickness is about 10% higher than its actual thickness. This advantage is not calculated into BR which makes it the favourable choice in PBs. Question should be, how to change it? We could start by increasing its BR by 40 and see how it works out.

Changing the BR will not really do much. Personally I think HP up and Armour down. Increase HP and loads of rep mods are an issue then so its not a solution. I don't know. Since its alpha why not test :)  Any ship needs to be effective vs bigger ships. Remember the KPR duel we had? Your Armour was 7 cm more than mine since you were cartha teak WO and I was only teak teak. Did I fire at terrible angles? Was our duel close? No you smashed my ship apart because of what? A total of 10% armour advantage in total? This 10% makes a huge difference and around a 40-50% battle advantage. I did not know at that time cartha was changed to cm. More armour should give you a bigger advantage but you know as much as I the effectiveness of a 9 pound long vs a Cartha trinco. Its a hard thing to balance on smaller ships in all fairness. 

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56 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

More armour should give you a bigger advantage but you know as much as I the effectiveness of a 9 pound long vs a Cartha trinco. Its a hard thing to balance on smaller ships in all fairness. 

Then make the thread about the Carta refit instead of the l'Ocean.

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41 minutes ago, Cornelius Tromp said:

Then make the thread about the Carta refit instead of the l'Ocean.

cartha is a topic on its own and 5cm on first rates are less of an issue because percentage wise its less

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1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

I know for a fact as arrogant as this may seem that I know what is better for the combat system than 95% of the community

 I couldn't say better.

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Just now, Cabral said:

 I couldn't say better.

Again another reply that has no argument. 

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13 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Again another reply that has no argument. 

You statement had no arguement in it either :)

 

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On 5/19/2018 at 4:08 PM, HachiRoku said:
On 5/19/2018 at 4:04 PM, Sovereign said:

What 1st rate carries 18 longs or 32 carronades, please?

You make the same mistake as the devs in my oppinion. You think 1st rates should be balanced with other first rates. This is exactly why oceans are meta and 2nd rates and 3rd rates are useless. 18 pounders and 12 pounders should be able to pen any ship at 300 meters with a perfect angle. This is not the case. The devs said a 9 pounder would be able to pen anything at 250m when they nerfed them last time. 9 pounders are useless even against carthagena frigates with a 10-20% angle at 200m.... 

I'm a bit late to the conversation but why should that actually matter, Constitution has very similar hull thickness to Victory historically, both at around 2ft at the waterline which as far as I understand is give or take a few cm the same as l'Ocean. Why should an 18 long have no issue penetrating constitution but not Ocean? While History shouldn't be the be all and end all of balance it does beg some questions, especially with the current relationship between structure and thickness, an 18lb gun shouldn't struggle the way it does at such close range.

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1 hour ago, Cornelius Tromp said:

You statement had no arguement in it either :)

 

I have pointed out many factors yet the people that disagree with me have no argument in favor of tanky 1st rate. 

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6 hours ago, Cabral said:

I believe that 18pdrs should do more damage to L'Ocean at 0 meters but, we need ingame balance. It's not the first time Hachiroku asks to devs to break the game because he likes to sail the trinco, last time he didn't like the trinco turnrate then the devs change it to values similar to surprise turnrate. It was a mistake, then they reverted to todays values.

 I saw the video battle in question, what happened was that Hachi was so frustraded because he was the only 5th rate in the battle and couldn't do s***. All spanish first and second rates were sunk by similar ships, just not by him.

 If we want to return to the same meta of the past we can call back PODW clan and start using again belle poules loaded with carronades, hug big ships and sink first rate fleets with frigates.

Pretty much what I am thinking, to be honest...

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