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HachiRoku

Ocean is still to Tanky

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Not much to say about it other than the ship bounces to much. Yesterday I was in a Trinco with 18 longs and 32 carronades and at 0 meter distance(I was hugging him) I got 6 pens out of 25 balls fired. Angling in general still bounces to much but because the oceans hull is the way it is it makes the ship as we all see the meta. If its the meta there is something wrong. 

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i remember the thickness meta where i had the situation in a PB that my hugging Victory made 10 hull hits while the enemy landed his whole broadside. We couldnt use double ball because on 0 meters everything bounced on loceans.

it got better with the changes, but it still is too much.

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2 minutes ago, Headless Parrot said:

5th rate against a 1st rate.....sounds right to me

this isnt right at all. the danger as a 5th rate against a 1st rate should be the firepower and not the thickness on distance.

or is it normal for you that around 150cm penetration just bounces on 0 meters?

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39 minutes ago, Headless Parrot said:

5th rate against a 1st rate.....sounds right to me

it has nothing to do with rates. Its that an 18 pounder or 32 carro can't do anything to an ocean. 

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I think it is good as it is now and I don't think people should be able to solo kill 1st rates in frigates easily... I love frigates the most actually but I don't want all ships to be the same and the 1st rate classification should stand for something. It used to be wrong / too hard to penetrate before the impact angle / armor changes but now it seems just fine. With the lowest turnrates the 1st rates actually have the most problems angling their armor, so they need the extra thickness / bounce capability.

The 1st rates could be nerfed again but they would have to reduce their costs aswell then. I peronally wouldn't like to see the most expensive and supposedly most powerful ships in the game to be crippled and brought in line with 5th rates, so the duellists have a easier time killing 1sts 1 vs 1 in their frigates...

Edited by Sovereign
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1 minute ago, Sovereign said:

I think it is good as it is now and I don't think people should be able to solo kill 1st rates in frigates easily... I love frigates the most actually but I don't want all ships to be the same and the 1st rate classification should stand for something.

Do you even read the topic? Its not about Frigates, its about Ocean being much stronger than any other 1st rate due to the shipform.

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5 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

I think it is good as it is now and I don't think people should be able to solo kill 1st rates in frigates easily... I love frigates the most actually but I don't want all ships to be the same and the 1st rate classification should stand for something. It used to be wrong / too hard to penetrate before the impact angle / armor changes but now it seems just fine. With the lowest turnrates the 1st rates actually have the most problems angling their armor, so they need the extra thickness / bounce capability.

The 1st rates could be nerfed again but they would have to reduce their costs aswell then. I peronally wouldn't like to see the most expensive and supposedly most powerful ships in the game to be crippled and brought in line with 5th rates, so the duellists have a easier time killing 1sts 1 vs 1 in their frigates...

I was in a trinco and had 10 1st rates on my side. We killed every spanish ship in that battle. This is not the point of the topic. Its about cannons not penning at really close ranges. You know what an 18 pound gun is? It should pen an ocean at 200m no problem. the ocean has the advantage of more crew, more guns armour, hp over firgate. I think thats enough

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3 minutes ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

Do you even read the topic?

I did so, thank you very much for asking, good Sir! But did you?

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

Trinco with 18 longs and 32 carronades

What 1st rate carries 18 longs or 32 carronades, please?

4 minutes ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

Ocean being much stronger than any other 1st rate due to the shipform.

Yes, I guess their idea was to have L'Ocean be about armor / hp, Santissima firepower and Victory a stronger sailer / agility but I feel like Victory is not even a real 1st rate... it seems indeed underpowered.

So wouldn't it make more sense to suggest buffs for Sanitssima and Victory, instead of bringing L'Ocean armor in line with 5th rate guns??

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Just now, Sovereign said:

What 1st rate carries 18 longs or 32 carronades, please?

You make the same mistake as the devs in my oppinion. You think 1st rates should be balanced with other first rates. This is exactly why oceans are meta and 2nd rates and 3rd rates are useless. 18 pounders and 12 pounders should be able to pen any ship at 300 meters with a perfect angle. This is not the case. The devs said a 9 pounder would be able to pen anything at 250m when they nerfed them last time. 9 pounders are useless even against carthagena frigates with a 10-20% angle at 200m.... 

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Just now, Hethwill said:

I'd say on a world without modules they do.

nope. Carthagena is the only mod really used atm. Navy structure gives nothing so few use it atm. Carthagena is very strong on frigates but on bigger ships it becomes less op. Feel free to go and test a live wo ocean with no modules against smaller caliber cannons. Saying modules is completely wrong because if its anything it is one module. 

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Okay, will do. With 6 pounder I know they do at under 50m. Will check the 9 pounders but given Princes use them i'd say they might aswell at 100 at least ( suicidal ).

No pen mods on my behalf.

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1 minute ago, Hethwill said:

Okay, will do. With 6 pounder I know they do at under 50m. Will check the 9 pounders but given Princes use them i'd say they might aswell at 100 at least ( suicidal ).

No pen mods on my behalf.

Yeah they might pen at the perfect angle with 0 tolerance. All I know is what I saw yesterday was just to much and when 18s and 32 carros dont pen at 0 meters there is something wrong. Sure the trinco might be at a height where both decks fire into the curved part of the oceans hull. I still don't think at 0 meters this should bounce. 

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Any sensible captain will turn his 1st rate into the wind and go full backward.

No more sterncamping then when the 1st rate starts maneuvering while sailing backwards with -4kn or -5kn.

Edited by Batman
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Just now, Batman said:

Any sensible captain will turn his 1st rate into the wind and go full backward. No more sterncamping then when the 1st rate starts maneuvering while sailing backwards with -4kn or -5kn.

That's what we have, now that there's barely any leeway.

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28 minutes ago, Shrez said:

Just stern rake then.

While this thread isn't really my topic or my area of interest, that right there is a logical fallacy.

Just because it is possible to work around an imbalanced or poorly thought out ship or mechanic does not mean it isn't imbalanced.

By the logic of the quoted statement, it would be fine to introduce a ship with 200 thick side armor, because it can still be raked. Yes it can be raked, but so can any other ship. But other ships can also be penned from the side, which (for most ships) the ocean can not. That is the problem this thread addresses.

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Stacking thickness upgrades is the prob then not the ship.

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Again...  hull thickness of HMS Victory at water line ~61cm. Hull thickness of USS Constitution at waterline ~55cm.  

According to ballistics testing from the early 1800’s, an 18-lb long will penetrate 3.3 feet (100cm) of oak at 100 yards. 

The only MAJOR difference between the later heavy frigates and SOL’s is their overall size which allowed them to carry more guns.

They were, and should be, still susceptible to damage like any other ship   Especially from point blank range   

 

 

 

 

 

 

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▲ with armor 
▼with thickness

for first rates

Mods are probably the hidden issue here. (big surprise)

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1 hour ago, Vernon Merrill said:

According to ballistics testing from the early 1800’s, an 18-lb long will penetrate 3.3 feet (100cm) of oak at 100 yards. 

 Those tests were made with oak, maybe the most used wood to build ships in those times, but in game you see mostly first rates build with heavy woods like LO and WO. And if you put modules stacked in it... it gets worse. I bet if that L'Ocean didn't had magic modules, Hachi guns would penetrate better.

 The problem is not the ship itself, it's de overpowerd modules.

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9 minutes ago, Cabral said:

 Those tests were made with oak, maybe the most used wood to build ships in those times, but in game you see mostly first rates build with heavy woods like LO and WO. And if you put modules stacked in it... it gets worse. I bet if that L'Ocean didn't had magic modules, Hachi guns would penetrate better.

 The problem is not the ship itself, it's de overpowerd modules.

It wasn't too long ago that the same thing happened with 42 and 32pd longs not being able to pen at point blank. It's better now with the thickness reductions but with mods there's still a threshhold of impenetrable-ness that can be reached, exacerbated by the L'Oceans thicc curves.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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cry-me-a-river_o_183875.jpg

5th rate ve 1st rate. get over it, get a bigger ship.

Any lower armor we get the return of the frigates hugging 1st rates with carron00bs.

Edited by Cornelius Tromp
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