Game Play Realism

[darian_glinski]

I am a software engineer.  I spent 10 years in the military specializing in military combat simulations.  I have been doing research into 16th, 17th and 18th Century sailing ships as well as modern CVN, DD, DDG for a couple years for a military combat simulator my company is working on that encompasses all the major combat arenas from early to late periods.  I specialize in 3D technologies, am also a CG Artist and animator.  I deal with substance, speed tree, blender, and various technologies including direct x and opengl, unity and unreal.  So based on my knowledge of simulations and historical naval vessels from the Maritime Museum in London and Greenwich, as well as U.S. Maritime information, I thought I would offer some input:

1.  Economy, great, love it.  Crafting awesome.  You need to open up the ability to build as many buildings as you want in the game in varying ports.

2.  Ships of the era had  magazines.  Now what is not commonly known is that there were Cannon Balls, Bombs, Chain, and Grape ammunitions.  Bombs were the predecessor to heavy explosive rounds in the 20th century.  The bombs would be shot from the cannons.  The had a stabilized gunpowder center that would detonate on impact and inflicted heavy explosive damage on enemy ships killing crew, inflicting massive structural damage.  They were typically used on lighter hulls, as heavier hulls could withstand the bombs because penetration was not as high as general cannon balls.  Bombs also had larger potential to detonate the ship magazines.

3.  Magazines need to detonate.

4.  Ammunition needs to be limited.  Cannon Balls, Bombs, Chains and Grapes need to consumer cargo space and you should have powder.  Powder was first loaded into the cannon, then the ammunition after that.  Powder was organized into various amounts according to the cannon types.  So you could just make powder generally acquirable or for realism add varying powder charges that matches the cannons poundage.

5.  The first ships were just generally manufactured but later there were classes of ships based on number of guns.  So a first rate ship of the line was classified as such because of the number of guns it carried.

6.  You should include rations.  Ships had rations and varying salted foods and that food should take up cargo space and be consumed according to number of sailors.  Not sure on this but I would assume 1 sailor consumed probably 2 meals a day.  You should add the ability to limit the number of rations consumed with health effects so if a ship is at sea, running low on rations those rations can be limited by the captain.

7.  I love the crew battles, however that is very generic, pushing buttons and calculating the actions.  There needs to be a way to create your character in 3D as a model.  There were varying weapons you can customize your character with.  Clothes etc for immersion.  Ship battles should be dynamic, action packed and visual.  So musket men should be on deck in 3D, watch as crew battle, really add some depth.

8.  You've gone this far, why not add SRTM so you can navigate the globe and procedurally generate the terrain.  This removes having to model a segment of the globe and opens up the entire world to sailing.  SRTM is Shuttle Relay Topography Missions.  I recommend the data from Natural Earth.  I specialized in developing procedurally generated terrain off SRTM databases in combat simulations.

9.  I also recommend a way to track the ships navigation.  Now you might try latitude and longitude and marker where your ship is at on the map.  Add some charting tools and maybe the ability to plot courses.

Willing to help develop this stuff if your needing more developers as I see the potential in the game and love it.  If your going to do this level of game, why not pull out all the goodies and do all the fine detail?

Edited May 16, 2018 by darian_glinski

[Angus MacDuff]

1. love it.

2. Bombs are too modern.  Stick with ball.

3.  They can

4.  This is a game play issue that has been discussed in depth.  Limiting ammo means sailing home a lot!  No fun.

5. No Sh!t.

6.  As per 4.

7.  Already discussed in depth.

8. Its big enough!

9.  As per 7.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Oberon74
Spelling

[Wind]

They should hire you. Great stuff. 

4. Old suggestion that would expand Economy content. We have multiple topics suggesting limited ammo mechanics. Unfortunately no one picked it up. 

9. Used to have location finder, got removed. No idea why. We need basic navigation tools that used to exist and a way to calculate ans share location. 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Wind

[Macjimm]

9 hours ago, Wind said:

They should hire you. Great stuff. 

I agree.  They should hire you.

1.  The economy should be linked to the port health and productivity.  Some raw materials should be harvested from areas away from the ports. 

3.  Agree - Magazines need to detonate.

4.  Agree - Ammunition needs to be limited.  

6.  Agree - Rations should be linked to health and morale. But there is not much need for rations on a short journey of less than a day.  Ports should need food and supply to maintain productivity.

7.  Crew battles would be great.   But is it possible with the current mechanics and engine.

8.  Having a larger world would be amazing.  Just keep all the ports/commerce in the Caribbean.  The rest of the globe would be for exploring, and harvesting minerals and raw material.  Some players who only want to explore, and harvest, don't fight anyway.  The PvPers don't lose an opponent, but they gain a potential fat target, laden with material, as she returns to the Caribbean.

9.  I disagree emphatically that we need a GPS marker on the map.  We need a  compass, pendant (wind), chip log and chronometer: All toggled so they can be turned off.  We have marvelous 3rd party map sites that enable accurate navigation, and it's fun.  A GPS  map marker would dumb down an already very simple mechanic.   Although it would be okay to have a sextant, or pilot, to display co-ordinates.

I sorely wish you were part of the dev team.

 

[Slim McSauce]

You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. Take my +1

[z4ys]

To 1. The limit of buildings simulate the need of trade agreements, teamwork and is a part of the choice game.

To 3. Magazines can already detonate (we just don't hit them)

To 4.ammunition is already limited except ball but who wants to be stuck in a battle without any ammo left? Same goes for powder.

To 6. When a ship is crafted it already needs provisions. Normally ships were equipped for 6month at see. The majority of our sails end after 10 days at sea. Adding additional provision would be somewhat unrealistic and just be an other fake feature like powder or ammunition that has to be bought.

To 8. People already complain about sailing in a sailing game so why expand the map even further?

To 9. We had position markers and even the f11 coordinates are bad for gameplay. Teamspeak and GPS lead to undesired gameplay effects.

Edited May 17, 2018 by z4ys

[Hethwill]

Number 1 - System is modelled for multiplayer - by cooperative crafting or trading. Not one player produce it all.

Number 2 and Number 3 - Magazines are modelled per ship in the correct locations. Plus each battery has its own setup of charges, so fires start when these are hit and fire spread is modelled, same as sudden explosions.

[darian_glinski]

  I'm just wondering as I have been busy researching older ships and modern ships for our combat simulator as well as in touch with a few naval experts that worked in the U.S. Navy and had some education on the various aspects, where you are getting your design specifications?  I am familiar with the Maritime Museum in London and Greenwhich, there are a couple US Museums, but I have obtained some of the schematics and they don't necessarily seem complete.  The more Modern Vessels like the Nimitz, Oliver Hazard Perry, very complete, but older ships, I agree, very vast and some information is very incomplete or sketchy, especially the further back you go.  To many ships and types.  I'll look into the bombs, I guess one expert had a different explanation, but the bombing ships came from another individual same as mentioned here.

 

[Angus MacDuff]

3 minutes ago, darian_glinski said:

  I'm just wondering as I have been busy researching older ships and modern ships for our combat simulator as well as in touch with a few naval experts that worked in the U.S. Navy and had some education on the various aspects, where you are getting your design specifications?  I am familiar with the Maritime Museum in London and Greenwhich, there are a couple US Museums, but I have obtained some of the schematics and they don't necessarily seem complete.  The more Modern Vessels like the Nimitz, Oliver Hazard Perry, very complete, but older ships, I agree, very vast and some information is very incomplete or sketchy, especially the further back you go.  To many ships and types.  I'll look into the bombs, I guess one expert had a different explanation, but the bombing ships came from another individual same as mentioned here.

 

Exploding ammunition basically ended wooden hulled ships.  Once shells were available, ship builders had to counter with iron armour.  We want to stay in the age of sail and wooden ships, ergo, no wish for exploding ammo (exception being mortars).  Also note that shore facilities had heated shot, which we don't use in the game.  With heated shot, no wooden vessel could survive within a mile of a shore battery.  Do we want that in the game?  It would make it impossible to attack ports without a major change.

[darian_glinski]

"Exploding ammunition basically ended wooden hulled ships.  Once shells were available, ship builders had to counter with iron armour.  We want to stay in the age of sail and wooden ships, ergo, no wish for exploding ammo (exception being mortars).  Also note that shore facilities had heated shot, which we don't use in the game.  With heated shot, no wooden vessel could survive within a mile of a shore battery.  Do we want that in the game?  It would make it impossible to attack ports without a major change."

Hmm, I have one project in the works with the DOD right now training Marines and Army personnel with VR and immersive gear.  I might have some time once I am done in a month or so to send you some solutions I and the various experts have used in simulations to keep FPS High, utilize the polygon collision to do away with HP.  The problem you run into a great deal is older technology could only do Hit Points, in your case armor and hp, because Hit Points was a simple solution that got around keeping the FPS in reason on older stuff.  However, more modern technology within the last 10 years can do some incredibly simple work that is physically sound, utilize polygon collision, keep the FPS high and solve some of these issues allowing you to really build on your game and make it as real as possible.  Staying in the Caribbean, great, but being able to attack a port and still having all the proper stuff, that would be cool.  I'll compile some stuff that is used in military simulations to tackle some of these issues.

An example of this would be say, you have an steel vessel.  Once you know the material is steel you have it's density, you simply compute the density versus the velocity and mass of the object hitting hit, and it either breaks, or it holds.  Once you know these two, it's simply a matter of keeping a smaller array of hole locations on the vessel using vectors and the ones below the water line cause flooding.  Don't have to show it on the model.  Yeah, increases some memory use, but it gives the realism.  The only thing we haven't really done here is add the deterioration of strength of the material under continuous assault.  By adding this simple mechanic, you could essentially implement many things and the physics of the material vs the ammunition allows things not possible with HP and Armor that are very realistic.

By the way, 1 PHD Computer Science, Disciplines in Math, Physics, Quantum Mechanics and Chemistry.  Yes, the army trained me to make bombs and bombs have a great history in the navy.  LOL.  Nitrating agents plus glycerin etc... love it.

[Hethwill]

Great post and all and must say your enthusiasm shows, even if a bit disperse regarding what this version of Naval Action is.

Obviously it is hard to immediately grasp the entertaining complexity level of NA age of sail naval combat and all the finer details.

Given you claims you should submit your CV to GameLabs ? http://www.game-labs.net/

 

[Angus MacDuff]

15 minutes ago, darian_glinski said:

"Exploding ammunition basically ended wooden hulled ships.  Once shells were available, ship builders had to counter with iron armour.  We want to stay in the age of sail and wooden ships, ergo, no wish for exploding ammo (exception being mortars).  Also note that shore facilities had heated shot, which we don't use in the game.  With heated shot, no wooden vessel could survive within a mile of a shore battery.  Do we want that in the game?  It would make it impossible to attack ports without a major change."

Hmm, I have one project in the works with the DOD right now training Marines and Army personnel with VR and immersive gear.  I might have some time once I am done in a month or so to send you some solutions I and the various experts have used in simulations to keep FPS High, utilize the polygon collision to do away with HP.  The problem you run into a great deal is older technology could only do Hit Points, in your case armor and hp, because Hit Points was a simple solution that got around keeping the FPS in reason on older stuff.  However, more modern technology within the last 10 years can do some incredibly simple work that is physically sound, utilize polygon collision, keep the FPS high and solve some of these issues allowing you to really build on your game and make it as real as possible.  Staying in the Caribbean, great, but being able to attack a port and still having all the proper stuff, that would be cool.  I'll compile some stuff that is used in military simulations to tackle some of these issues.

An example of this would be say, you have an steel vessel.  Once you know the material is steel you have it's density, you simply compute the density versus the velocity and mass of the object hitting hit, and it either breaks, or it holds.  Once you know these two, it's simply a matter of keeping a smaller array of hole locations on the vessel using vectors and the ones below the water line cause flooding.  Don't have to show it on the model.  Yeah, increases some memory use, but it gives the realism.  The only thing we haven't really done here is add the deterioration of strength of the material under continuous assault.  By adding this simple mechanic, you could essentially implement many things and the physics of the material vs the ammunition allows things not possible with HP and Armor that are very realistic.

By the way, 1 PHD Computer Science, Disciplines in Math, Physics, Quantum Mechanics and Chemistry.  Yes, the army trained me to make bombs and bombs have a great history in the navy.  LOL.  Nitrating agents plus glycerin etc... love it.

Could you expand on that?

[darian_glinski]

Yeah, I can expand on that.  Basically, the problem is, when you use hit point, your not able to take into account certain things or make assumptions and simplify the obvious so you can simulate certain realism.  For instance, the outside of the ship is wet, you can assume that.  So while a port may have heated ammunition, the heat is not going to be effective unless it penetrates or ignites the dry parts of a ship.  Really, the penetration and the heat is what does the damage.  You can also assume something heated, doesn't move as quickly, creates resistance as it moves thru the air.  So, there are some very simply, physical calculations that you can make in the velocity and mass of the ammo with certain assumptions that don't require computation, versus the structure of a ship, tensile strength, density.  So, when the combination of velocity and mass create a number that exceeds the density of the ships material, and you don't have a lot of materials for ships you have a penetration.  Now, at that point, you can conclude that the materials have a certain amount of heat resistance and don't necessarily just light up, however a number of heated penetrations would add up and ignite the material of the ships.  Very simple calculations, with assumptions that are pretty obvious to reduce calculation, and then you have ships that were truly built to withstand barrages from the shore and still attack ports.  You get the realism at very low cost.

Now the penetrations are simply kept in a dynamic local coordinate vector array you can simply compare the vectors, find out which ones are below the water and simulate flooding.  Now water flooding is pretty consistent.  So, the more holes below the water line, the quicker the flooding that exceeds the pumps, the water removes the buoyancy and the displacement sinks the ship.  You can also use those same local model coordinates to map hole textures to the model if you want to get fancy.  I don't recommend CSG subtraction, to slow.  

Also, you can use that same dynamic to figure out what happens when heated ammunition does penetrate a magazine.  For instance, being a bomb expert, the magazine had many charges of powder.  Now powder in it's self is very stable.  When subjected to heat it flares up quickly and releases gases very fast.  Now those gases are what actually propel ammunition.  Now the funny thing is, when you have massive amounts of powder that burn quickly and release these gases, the ship it's self acts as a container.  That container traps those gases and when the gases exceed the container, that build up is a huge blast.  Not a fire, BLAST as in BOOM.  Which totally blows apart the ship.  Which is why you need density and tensile strength because they were built to withstand a lot of pounding.  The more density and thicker it is, the less likely you get penetration.  Thus, it was difficult to detonate a ships magazine.

It's kind of like PBR.  All materials have a LRI (Light Refraction Index).  Now there is a newer classification.  That reflectivity change between certain materials is so minute you will never notice the change in a game. So what PBR does is it assume the noticeable change is between Specular and Metallic, which drops magnitudes of calculations but gives you the accuracy in what you visually see, and still maintains game speed.  This is no different.  It makes certain assumptions, gives you accuracy, and maintains proper speed and allows you to simulate things you can't do with your current set up.

By the way, I don't do this for money.  I enjoy it.  It's a passion.  I have huge volumes of epic music you could add and would happy right now to send it your way.  It's paid for, under my company name, royalty free, you can use it any way you want just have to give the credit.  Believe me, it's epic music like you wouldn't believe.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by darian_glinski

[Hethwill]

Any links ? Samples ? Showcase ? Reelshow ?

[Angus MacDuff]

Yes but wooden ships were notoriously dry (sure, the outer surface might be wet).  Surely, a red hot ball lodged in the timbers is an instant fire.  And magazines were not often penetrated.  magazine explosions occurred when the ship was on fire (see L'Orient at the battle of the Nile)

[z4ys]

What burned in no time was the tar in the rigging.

*like a candle in the wind*

[Angus MacDuff]

Just now, z4ys said:

What burned in no time was the tar in the rigging.

*like a candle in the wind*

Very true.  That's why ships going into battle brailed up their courses (the large sails closest to their decks).  Risk of sails catching fire and spreading to the rigging.  We don't do this in the game.

[darian_glinski]

I will be sending a link to some of the art work directly.  I think I talked to you in game.  I am giving you access to some of our texture work using substance B2M, and a few music examples.  We are working on the website, that would be Kelly Williams, Linux geek I might add.  I am doing the DOD project which I can't disclose.  But I have more.  You will need to view TGA files.  I also do CG art and Animation.  I just put together a fly thru in Blender been having trouble compiling it, so shortening it up.  I am sending the link directly to you as it's just a summation of some of the work, I am uploading it now for your viewing.  I don't generally step out of my company projects, but I love the game, see the potential and I can at least save you money, some time giving you some things, and I would love to see a benchmark sailing sim.

[darian_glinski]

I am also having one of my guys compile a break down of a Bermuda sloop and how you utilize the polygon collisions, do the calculations, density, material, and cut the corners in a illustrated fashion that you can implement in Unity, Unreal or any other engine in code.  Take a few days.  But it's not terribly complex, and you could potentially do away with Hit Points, account for the heavy armoring on the ships and model realistic factors such as penetration, fire, explosions but keeps your performance.  It's experienced information and not stuff you can just easily get hold of without working a lot in simulations.  Its essentially the same for any kind of sailing vessel, early to modern.

[Hethwill]

This is not Naval Action game discussion content.

Moved to Tavern

[Kloothommel]

usernumbers or realism. There is a balance. More realism would result in even fewer players I am afraid.

[darian_glinski]

Well not so real it's boring, just real as in the simulation of battle.  I get what they want to achieve, not sailing around for days on end with nothing to do.  LOL

 

[Slim McSauce]

1 hour ago, darian_glinski said:

not sailing around for days on end with nothing to do.  LOL

the bane of NA 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[EdWatchmaker]

I'm okay with sailing around for days on end with nothing to do except explore. After all I managed, with the unexpected help of my previous sea dog Rocky, to get myself into the Pacific and had a months great time sailing around. BTW, (Please Devs.) put one port over there and turn on the fishing as my crew and I got tired of eating birds and seaweed. Almost had a mutiny. I'm going back again in a month or so to refresh my memory of it and hunt the open sea for possible hidden islands, something I failed to do last time. Only did the coast and some mapped islands.

Thanks for this thread, let's get this Capt. on board. 

Fair sailing all. 

[Christendom]

Realism vs Game play.  Game play needs to win in most cases.  Otherwise people won't play your game.  Take a look at the reviews of NA and majority of them will show you that it's too difficult, caters to the hardcore type and overall it's just boring.  This is because we've catered more and more to the crowd that wants everything to be hardcore and they want to relive those first couple days of excitement when they first picked up the game and got hooked.  Unfortunately we need to take those rose coloured glasses off and realize that people want to enjoy their games and the fact that we've sold 110-120k copies of this game and 2 years later we're struggling to crack 500 people online at a time means that the current direction towards hard mode isn't working.  

Every single time we've made this game more difficult and removed quality of life features that MOST games offer, people quit.  Every single time.  The worst part is the guys who request these features don't even play.  They pop on for 2 weeks after every patch and then go piss off to warthunder.  

When I get off work and want to come home and relax, sink some brits and sail around bored for a couple of hours I really don't want to have to stock my ship up with repairs, rum, rations and fucking cannon balls.  The time delay between logging on and actually finding meaningful content is already long enough to where sometimes I wonder whether or not it's worth it.  For now it usually is.  Add the above mentioned and it won't be.  

No thanks.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Christendom