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The title says it all, basically.

Right now the overall effect of stacked mods with similar boni seems a bit extreme to me. While realism sometimes has to make way for playability and fun, I personally think that it's a bit ridiculous to have Ships of the line zoom around going clost to 14 knots.  A speed stacked Teak/Teak Bellona for example easily outguns and outtanks a Wo/Wo Indefatigable, but the Indefatigable has almost no chance of running in such an encounter. This seems a bit overboard to me. (pun very much intended :ph34r:)

My suggestion would be to either reduce the effect of speedmods according to ship rating, much akin to the way knowledge books like powder monkeys have less of an effect on higher rates. Another possible solution would be to limit the maximal speed bonus to something like 4 % making stacking of more than two mods useless.

The same principle applies to repair mods and skills. Sailing a ship with northern masters, steel toolbox and expert carpentry/combat carpenter reports, will essentially enable one to build half a new ship in battle. Granted those books are rare, and the mods are fairly expensive, but as long as economy is like it is, with some people having 100M gold or more in the bank, that argument goes in the other direction, creating a large non-skill-related gap between players.

To be clear: This is NOT an advertisment along the lines of "Upgrades are blatantly overpowered, skill makes no difference anymore" . The final exam very much shows the opposite, as one can easily sink both AI ships without the rageboarding meta. Just takes a little more patience.

This suggestion is about moderation and enhancing the importance of skill and patience. An expensive Upgrade has to have it's value, it just shouldn't knock balance out of the water completely.

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2 hours ago, Tom Farseer said:

To be clear: This is NOT an advertisment along the lines of "Upgrades are blatantly overpowered, skill makes no difference anymore" . The final exam very much shows the opposite, as one can easily sink both AI ships without the rageboarding meta. Just takes a little more patience.

This suggestion is about moderation and enhancing the importance of skill and patience. An expensive Upgrade has to have it's value, it just shouldn't knock balance out of the water completely.

To me the fact that we even need caps is evidence that mods are too extreme/strong. You should never be able to get to +30% rate of fire, thats mindboggling. The limit should be +10%, not because of a cap but because there shouldn't be mods that strong. 10% should be the result of rigging the ship almost exclusively to increase firepower.

The vets always run around shouting "mods and books don't matter, you just suck"

"but if you happen to have one of these completely un-important mods or books, i'll buy it for 10 million..."

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As someone who has been playing for 4 months, my opinion is that I can't compete with those who have the mods.  I am not yet as skilled as the experienced players and I have not accumulated the mods myself.  A player with far greater experience on a modded up supership means I stand no chance.  If there were no super mods, at least I could measure my skills against a better player and learn from it.  In this reality, I have no idea whether its the mods or the player that is killing me.

Edited by Oberon74
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These are just the speed mods I remember off the top of my head:

Fast
Very Fast

Naval clock
Copper plating
Navy hull
Bovenwinds
Crooked hull
Gazelle
Spanish rig refit
Elite spanish rig refit
Pirate rig refit
Elite Pirate rig refit

Art of ship handling
Trim - speed
Art of proper cargo distribution
Optimized ballast
Light carriages
Navy Loodsman
Treatise on square sails trim
Studding sails
Treatise on staysails trim
Staysails

Looking at the list it is very clear to me that we have a problem with mods, despite them trying to balance it in the past.

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52 minutes ago, Capt Aerobane said:

The vets always run around shouting "mods and books don't matter, you just suck"

There are a few who don't have the rare books, but most vets have them all running with mods on top.

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Its actually even more nefarious that the OP states...  

Because not only do the fancy-pants mods actually give the player  (some would argue) too much of a bonus, the PSYCHOLOGICAL effect is even worse for the game.

How many players, especially newer ones, just decide to stay in port, supposed safe zones or wait til theres 15 of them to venture out to fight?

 

That being said, there is still only one true way to actually learn and get better in this game.  

It involves spending time in affordable ships and being sunk, and sunk again....  and again....  and again....   

 

For me, that was the hardest lesson to learn in this game.  How to accept and mitigate the negative effects of ship loss.

 

There's many reasons ROVERS run around in 6th/7th rates attacking much larger ships.  The challenge is certainly one.  But economics certainly plays a role.  

This is why I was a big proponent of an OFFICER system over the MOD system.  But I understand that for many people, loot-hunting is a draw.  

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4 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

This is why I was a big proponent of an OFFICER system

Admin said that they consider bringing the officer system from Legends into OW.

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2 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Its actually even more nefarious that the OP states...  

Because not only do the fancy-pants mods actually give the player  (some would argue) too much of a bonus, the PSYCHOLOGICAL effect is even worse for the game.

How many players, especially newer ones, just decide to stay in port, supposed safe zones or wait til theres 15 of them to venture out to fight?

 

That being said, there is still only one true way to actually learn and get better in this game.  

It involves spending time in affordable ships and being sunk, and sunk again....  and again....  and again....   

 

For me, that was the hardest lesson to learn in this game.  How to accept and mitigate the negative effects of ship loss.

 

There's many reasons ROVERS run around in 6th/7th rates attacking much larger ships.  The challenge is certainly one.  But economics certainly plays a role.  

This is why I was a big proponent of an OFFICER system over the MOD system.  But I understand that for many people, loot-hunting is a draw.  

I don't mind getting sunk.  I just got sunk last night, but I was in a TBrig so it doesn't matter.  What I object to is getting sunk in what could have been a reasonably even fight and not knowing if I lost to the skill or the mods.  I learn nothing that way.  If you are way more experienced than me, why do you need all the mods? 

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18 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

I don't mind getting sunk.  I just got sunk last night, but I was in a TBrig so it doesn't matter.  What I object to is getting sunk in what could have been a reasonably even fight and not knowing if I lost to the skill or the mods.  I learn nothing that way.  If you are way more experienced than me, why do you need all the mods? 

Loot, man....  Loot.  

When sinking ships isn't enough, you find other challenges.

 

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1 minute ago, Oberon74 said:

If you are way more experienced than me, why do you need all the mods?

Indeed.

12 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

But I understand that for many people, loot-hunting is a draw.  

Ah, the joys of the sandbox and the "content" these guys crave. I doubt the loot hunting is the draw, but rather the advantage the stuff gives. Maybe it's not having an advantage any more, but simply being able to compete.

Maybe new guys are saved by blissful ignorance? It takes a bit of time to understand how deep the book and mod rabbit hole goes

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2 hours ago, jodgi said:

Admin said that they consider bringing the officer system from Legends into OW.

How would an officer system work with being that an officer gains a better bonus over time (to a maximum) based on experience gained in battles and sailing and when or if the ship is sunk the officers die. But if the ship is captured the capturer can take an officer for themselves?

I always thought that would be pretty cool, but i understand that folks would pve grind the officers for better bonuses....but it's not much different than pve grinding for slots.

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I wish they would take the how mod system from NAL, so at least some good lives on from it. Personaly i have never been a fan of how they implemented mods/refits/upgrades/ peaks into NA, right from the start they never real aimed for balance. Since the first version of mods there where allways to many no brain mods (only upsites with no drawbacks) in every iteration.

Edited by balticsailor
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2 hours ago, Teutonic said:

But if the ship is captured the capturer can take an officer for themselves?

No, the point would be to move away from things you can lose, it may seem cool but it only leads to PvP timidness.

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53 minutes ago, jodgi said:

No, the point would be to move away from things you can lose, it may seem cool but it only leads to PvP timidness.

Another thing that leads to less pvp is the way mods work.  The general trend is speed at the cost of durability, except for super expensive mods that are just speed at the cost of nothing (screw you, broke scrubs). Because a trader's chances of fighting off a hunter are quite low, they go for speed hoping to decrease travel time and avoid conflict all together, but this also makes them totally unable to fight back against their attacker if they are caught. So because of how wood types work, we end up with less battles, and those battles that do happen are forgone conclusions. It would be much more interesting if wood types didn't affect speed and strength nearly as dramatically, so trader's wouldn't be so focused on fleeing and it would be worthwhile for them to defend themselves.

Same goes for normal ships. Players run speed mods on fir fir because if they don't, they will get ganked by people who do. So everybody but the absolute richest who can afford expensive speed mods and very fast ships is running around on pvp weak ships, avoiding committing to battles, only fighting when they greatly outnumber the enemy or are fighting a much weaker enemy. If they fight 1v1 in a fair situation, they run the risk of their enemy NOT being set up to run away, and getting rekt by a powerful ship. Its just blegh.

If you are sailing and you see for example a trincomalee, you should be able to know within + or - 5%, the rough stats of that ship, as they shouldn't deviate from the base stats by much. As is, you have no clue. It could be stronger than a constitution. Or as weak as a surprise, depending on its set up. So when you look at it, from the deck of YOUR trincomalee, you don't feel like attacking because for all you know it could be a horrible experience. You could run into a 5/5 teak white oak poods trinco with art of ship handling, gunnery encyclopedia, etc that absolutely obliterates you, or it could be fir fir 3/5 with cheap mods and you trash it (or sometimes a fair fight) It could be faster than a cerberus upwind or slower than a neufchatel downwind. Ships don't have identities, its all washed out with mods.

Elite players don't need mods to have an advantage, they know how to play the game and that is plenty enough of an advantage over newbies. Having a grindy "progression system" of sorts that holds the new guys back just sucks the life out of the game.

PVP works better when ships act like ships. These are age of sail ships, not littoral combat vessels that can be completely gutted and refitted for entirely different tasks within days. This isn't WOT. The way upgrades work right now feels like a micro transaction game where you are being pushed to spend money on them to be competetive, but there is no way to buy them... you just have to grind away for hours and hours on boring AI while dodging gankers tactical players who employ local numerical superiority.

 

Edited by Capt Aerobane
Edit ganking is a mindset :)
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3 hours ago, Capt Aerobane said:

The general trend is speed at the cost of durability, except for super expensive mods that are just speed at the cost of nothing (screw you, broke scrubs)

Ah, perceptive are you?

"Hello fir/fir copper/carta 5/5 art of.../loodsman Bellonas!"

"And fuck you normal people, in particular!"

 

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"PVP works better when ships act like ships. These are age of sail ships, not littoral combat vessels that can be completely gutted and refitted for entirely different tasks within days. This isn't WOT. The way upgrades work right now feels like a micro transaction game where you are being pushed to spend money on them to be competetive, but there is no way to buy them... you just have to grind away for hours and hours on boring AI while dodging gankers tactical players who employ local numerical superiority."

Once a ship is built, I don't think added mods of any nature are needed. The differences in speed/hull strength etc. should be determined by the wood (framing/planking) used.  Some knowledge improvements for gunnery/sailing/boarding could be available. 

If a trade ship needs to be faster, sail without guns and at 1/2 cargo. Traders (except the Spanish Armada fleets) normally didn't have guns anyway. Until the ridiculous ganking is brought under control, all we provide is target practice. I was trying to sneak trade goods into a port sailing a basic cutter with no guns. I was ganked at a 5:1 ratio by port campers. Who the hell is so hard up that they gank a basic cutter? 

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2 hours ago, Jack Spencer said:

 

If a trade ship needs to be faster, sail without guns and at 1/2 cargo. Traders (except the Spanish Armada fleets) normally didn't have guns anyway. Until the ridiculous ganking is brought under control, all we provide is target practice. I was trying to sneak trade goods into a port sailing a basic cutter with no guns. I was ganked at a 5:1 ratio by port campers. Who the hell is so hard up that they gank a basic cutter? 

Half the problem is cutter hold size and the fact that they should disable it for anything other than reps/rum....

I’m not ashamed to say that I’ll attack a player in a cutter.  The last one I caught had 9 labor contracts and two good mods in it...

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5 hours ago, Jack Spencer said:

"PVP works better when ships act like ships. These are age of sail ships, not littoral combat vessels that can be completely gutted and refitted for entirely different tasks within days. This isn't WOT. The way upgrades work right now feels like a micro transaction game where you are being pushed to spend money on them to be competetive, but there is no way to buy them... you just have to grind away for hours and hours on boring AI while dodging gankers tactical players who employ local numerical superiority."

Once a ship is built, I don't think added mods of any nature are needed. The differences in speed/hull strength etc. should be determined by the wood (framing/planking) used.  Some knowledge improvements for gunnery/sailing/boarding could be available. 

If a trade ship needs to be faster, sail without guns and at 1/2 cargo. Traders (except the Spanish Armada fleets) normally didn't have guns anyway. Until the ridiculous ganking is brought under control, all we provide is target practice. I was trying to sneak trade goods into a port sailing a basic cutter with no guns. I was ganked at a 5:1 ratio by port campers. Who the hell is so hard up that they gank a basic cutter? 

Cutters are ganked because people often transport books and other valuable stuff in it..

Use a lynx or tlynx next time

Edited by Mrgoldstein
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3 hours ago, Mrgoldstein said:

Cutters are ganked because people often transport books and other valuable stuff in it..

Use a lynx or tlynx next time

Exactly.

Maybe a tavern talk of "basic cutter" captures screens would simply dispel this myth.

I tell you that absurd amounts of teak have been seized from basic cutters coming out of Blondel through the months let alone books and modules in other places.

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I'm not sure where I stand on this. Specialising your ships with upgrades is great and one of the best features of the game but sometimes it can go to far.

Some mods do literally nothing where others are super powerful (elite Spanish). I think they need a balance overhaul really.

There's already hard limits in place on caps like 30% armour hp buff for example. Maybe some of them need tweaking ?   

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