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Reinforcement fleets: feedback

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8 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Though since this game is a sand box it's allowed, but we shouldn't make these zones easy for folks to pick off easy targets of those that aren't aware of all the game mechanics and how to play to the best of the game allows them to.

It is a sand box game. And it is based on a team play function. Just like I would want to have a friend to lure the AI away in a battle that is open for 90 minutes, the victim should also want someone to help him right out side YOUR capital aswell. There is no reason the defender should go entire length of battle without proper help from his TEAM he is playing on in his OWN capital reinforcement area. It is not the fault of the aggressor at this point, it is the fault of the people in the reinforcement zone on the same team as the defender to apply the right amount of reinforcement given to the player in need.

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2 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

We need more reason to push people out of the reinforcement zone in general. There is no reason 4000 hour sailors at max rank should be able to do anything they want to do in game in reinforcement zone. 

The thing is it's not the guys with 4000 hours that they are killing.  I know your nation doesn't have a bunch of newbs/new players or hell even casuals, but mine does so I see it a lot more.  It's manually the guys with less than 400 hours that are constantly getting ganked and killed out side the capital and in the zones.   Yah your still going to have that old cranky trader vet that AFK sails with 4 trade ships and get caught, but he isn't the one that is getting farmed, he also can cut his lost and just make new ships and a new run as those guys tend to have millions and millions.   

Show me one game that allows you to camp a capital and kill players?   Every game I been on that has PvP/PvE and yes this game has both, you where restricted to PvP only in designated zones.  Even EvE you have to move away from the starting areas before you can even think of attacking some one else or there security zones would destroy you.   You need to let the new players and casuals grow and do there thing to have a healthy server player base number.  Eventually those players might get the wild hair up and come out and play.   

Any one notice ASP numbers have dropped?  They use to come out and fight ya'll over and over, but even they are getting tired of sinking and dieing over and over to the same vet groups coming up and farming out side of CT.  It gets old when you don't win a few fights and what fun is that.   We are hoping it's more the finals exams and end of school thing why there numbers dropped but I think it's more having to do with the constant farming just doesn't make the game fun for them.

@Kjartan you would be some one that could answer some of this.  Since your guys number dropped a lot recently and your clan has a lot of new players how do you feel about the reinforcement zones, vets coming camping the coast line and how it effects your clan players?

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The game should not cater to the lack of knowhow from the defenders point of view, in a battle that is heavily against the aggressor both in terms of AI and battle open for 90 minutes. It is the defending nations fault the player in the reinforcement zone is not getting the reinforcements he wants from his nation. Fact is, if I tag someone outside french capital, for instance, I WILL get hit by a fleet of people ready to defend their newbies. If I hit someone on the US coast or British capital, well that’s just a joke. It’s all about team play in a sand box mmo. Remember the battles are open 24/7 and it’s so easy to ask the defender “which side of the battle is it, N,S,E,W?” And he tell you where location is and you can spawn right on top of the aggressor in most cases. It’s so easy to defend your seals from getting clubbed if you play as a team lol

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This game always seems to  follow the same cycle, everything gets slowly more and more stacked up against  the new player till we reach the tipping point, then drastic measures are brought in to try and revive the almost extinct gold fish bowl, then experienced pvprs come to forums and complain that they cant ruin every noobs day without getting sunk and things start stacking up against the new player again. I have noticed that missions seem to spawn outside the green zone and the result is much less people running missions at the capital, again another negative for the new player.  One day they simply wont be enough seals to club.

 

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7 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

EvE you have to move away from the starting areas before you can even think of attacking some one else or there security zones would destroy you. 

Yes, but in order to do anything in EVE first you must leave HI sec to get anything done. There is no reason to leave reinforcement for the pve player. What reason do you have to leave reinforcement? You can build anything you want, do whatever you want, get whatever resource you want(even if it’s high priced) and be perfectly happy. That’s not a sandbox pvp game. There is s server out there to do exactly that.

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The one experience I had with reinforcements was me happening on a battle just outside Port Antonio, so I know my perspective is somewhat limited.

Sir Loorkon in his Endy had tagged an LGV. The reinforcement was a Surprise. I joined the battle about 7-8 minutes after it started. By then Loorkon had almost killed the LGV (around 30% odf structure left) and the "reinforcement" was sailing around 400-500 m downwind of the battle. Not a scratch on it, the attacker didn't even need to chain. So either the guy in the LGV was trying to run from his own reinforcements, or they spawned in too far away.

My suggestions are:

  1. Make sure Reinforcements spawn somewhere decent. (With the wind gauge or between the attacker and the attacked.)
  2. Make sure the reinforcements acutally fit the attacker. Even a buffed up Surprise will not damage a half decent Endymion quickly enough to save an attacked trader, assuming the attacker isn't a newbie himself.

@admin I know you did not ask about player's skills, but I'd say it is linked to wether the reinforcements work, depending on how you want them to work. If they are supposed to give a newbie a fighting chance in case he get's attacked by another newbie, its probably fine. If they are supposed to offer new players some protection from anyone except other new players, they seem a bit underpowered.

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3 minutes ago, Fletch67 said:

This game always seems to  follow the same cycle, everything gets slowly more and more stacked up against  the new player till we reach the tipping point, then drastic measures are brought in to try and revive the almost extinct gold fish bowl, then experienced pvprs come to forums and complain that they cant ruin every noobs day without getting sunk and things start stacking up against the new player again. I have noticed that missions seem to spawn outside the green zone and the result is much less people running missions at the capital, again another negative for the new player.  One day they simply wont be enough seals to club.

 

In what way, does this game allow seals to be clubbed in reinforcement zone? Every nation has players designated to their capital area to reinforce the new players. Look, if I never was handed pvp on my first week of playing, I’d not even be here now lol. It is up to the nation to put in the effort to help the newbie in a battle open FOR THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE BATTLE

Edited by Vile Executioner

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2 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

So either the guy in the LGV was trying to run from his own reinforcements, or they spawned in too far away.

Reinforcements spawn between you and the attacker where the initial battle started from. So if you don’t call it right away, it will not be in a place where you need it to be.

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16 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Any one notice ASP numbers have dropped?  They use to come out and fight ya'll over and over, but even they are getting tired of sinking and dieing over and over to the same vet groups coming up and farming out side of CT

It’s simply one thing, they can’t grasp the concept of wind needed to retain the energy to keep the battle in their favor long enough for them to kill the enemy they are fighting...lol. They don’t understand sailing or simple naval tactics, my advise to learn it is to leave the reinforcement zone, go to a place on the map with similar player experience(any other nation capital) and learn it like the rest of the vet community in the game did.

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Once everyone stops playing at the capital and disperses to the far corners of the map to PVE all your have is your empty pvp zone to pvp in.  good luck with that.

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51 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Historically you didn't sit in the bay of London killing folks either.  

Blackbeard raided Charlestown, raised port royal and havana. Your wrong lol this is the carribean mate. Blackbeard raided Charlestown for medicine lol. And that’s just one pirate. Black Sams wreck is found outside of Boston harbor. Here is a list of all the wrecks on the Florida coast for instance from traders, warships and pirate wrecks. Pirates actively hunted outside of capitals of Europe to, look for Barbary pirates for instance.

2893B4F0-04B9-4454-A9BE-E2786AF09DCE.jpeg

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3 nights ago a captain who had 2 indianman in Mariel was attacked by 2 hercules. He asked for reinforcements and 2 mercurys came out. I imagine the laughter of the attackers. There can not be an intermediate point ?, Before, it was still excessive (it was really a safe area), but now it is a safe zone of attack and sinking. 

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2 hours ago, Vile Executioner said:

Yes, but in order to do anything in EVE first you must leave HI sec to get anything done. There is no reason to leave reinforcement for the pve player. What reason do you have to leave reinforcement? You can build anything you want, do whatever you want, get whatever resource you want(even if it’s high priced) and be perfectly happy. That’s not a sandbox pvp game. There is s server out there to do exactly that.

You can do everything but capital warfare in high-sec eve online. Yes even pvp through a war declaration mechanic.

It just so happens that low-sec and null-sec are 10 times better.

There needs to be more and better bonuses outside the safezone. Constantly restricting what can be done in the safezone is going to get us nowhere.

@Christendom @Sir Texas Sir Battles in the safezone need to close for the attacker and stay open for the defender. Instead we have attackers abusing the open battle in the defenders zone to reinforce greater numbers and more powerful ships. 

Edited by Teutonic
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8 hours ago, admin said:
  • if you used reinforcements - when did they help and when they were useless?

I used it once to help protect 3 trade ships. One of the reinforcement ships spawned on a collision course with one of my traders that where running. Result they both stop, and my trader get's boarded by an enemy player. I was able to escape with 2 out of 3 ships. So it kinda worked out, but the enemy players where never ever in any danger of getting sunk..

Imo the AI in reinforcement fleets are to weak and predictable against player who knows how AI behave, so they are not very good at protecting anything. Having 1. rates spawn is a overkill and just not realistic. Therefor I would much rather prefere that the reinforcement AI was buffed to epic event AI. They are much harder to kill, they are fast even when chained down and they a pose a real threat to players. 

They could also be taught to stay and protect the player ships, in sted of wandering off after a single ship they can never catch anyway.. Or learn them to use chain..! 😅

I forgot that the AI reinforcement fleet was demoted. So it's on the to-do list to test this from the other perspective 😈

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I'm fine with reinforcements as they are now. It provides a deterrent to attacking people in the zone but more over it prolongs the battle which lets other players join in to help if they so choose. I find that the AI can be dangerous but if its just AI its more of an annoyance then a true danger. 

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what do you want to 'protect' in the zones: traders or new players in war ships?

if it is traders ... then have the AI that show up be over powering, as trade is the life blood of a nation it makes sense that a capitol port would send out its big ships to protect the traders

if it is the new players on war ships ... then have the AI that show up be over powering 

no reason to 'protect' all ships equal ... 

 

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2 hours ago, Retrin said:

what do you want to 'protect' in the zones: traders or new players in war ships?

if it is traders ... then have the AI that show up be over powering, as trade is the life blood of a nation it makes sense that a capitol port would send out its big ships to protect the traders

if it is the new players on war ships ... then have the AI that show up be over powering 

no reason to 'protect' all ships equal ... 

 

If I understood correctly the goal of the reinforcements is to protect all kind of players and ships inside the zone.

 

Since the last change, they are failing. But they provide content for the players jumping in so we should make a choice here. Is reinforcement zone a true safe zone or not?

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12 hours ago, Christendom said:

Yea but PVPers already have EVERY advantage in this game.  You need to throw a bone to the little people or they will stop playing.  Which it seems they already have.  

clearly stated by some one who doesn't pvp. PVE/NEWB has super ai reinforce zone. fortress/towers. open world AI. full 1 1/2 hour open battle in capital area that the enemy can freely choose the join location. none of these factors work towards the pvper. all of them work towards the newb. and any one of them could easily get you killed. 

what otto says here is 100% correct.   "AI should not do all the work of protecting home waters - players should do that. Battle beeing open for the whole duration is enough help. " until every nation runs a coast guard fleet they will loose players. GB has done a great job with their new coast guard. and it is working to save their newbs and create content. 

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Ok here is my opinion from someone who can only play for an hour or so at a time during the work week.  I might get on before bed, late at night west coast time because that's the only time I can play.  The pop is low at this time and it's not possible to have a US coastguard to help you outside CT, there is only a few of us on at this time.  I might want to hit NPCs or run a quick mission and be done.  I don't want to get sucked into a 90'minute battle- so I would rarely leave green zone at this time. If I would get jumped the reinforcement fleet would be the only help I would expect. This is the way it is for some of us- why not even make the reinforcement ship one rate higher than attacker? Then it would be slower than attacker and he could either escape to jump someone else or if he had skills he could stay and battle it out.

on the other hand- if I play on a day off or have more time- I will leave the green zone and look for longer more elaborate PVP battles out in the OW or at other nations territories.  This seems to make sense to me - and I wonder how many others play in a similar fashion. Just one sea dogs opinion.

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I was in a Traders Lynx and was tagged by Sayid in a Prince right next to Carlisle. I called reinforcements which appeared in a Navy Brig right next to him. Silly me not having guns or repairs as I was in a low key trade run. The Brig did some damage but Sayid had no problem whatsoever outmaneuvering him and reducing my ship to 43% sails. I only survived thanks to support from nation players. In my opinion the AI reinforcement was of zero value in this case.

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7 hours ago, Teutonic said:

 

@Christendom @Sir Texas Sir Battles in the safezone need to close for the attacker and stay open for the defender. Instead we have attackers abusing the open battle in the defenders zone to reinforce greater numbers and more powerful ships. 

3

I agree...

 

The safe zones are about protecting new players IMO, reinforcements don't do that. We need to encourage a growing player base not club it at the source.

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@admin the way i have heard and saw, is when the reinforcement AI is spawned, 1 person just kites all of the AI away and the other continues to kill the player/noob in the battle. Perhaps since EA is for testing, we should test maybe 2 equal rate ships instead of 1? or perhaps as was suggested earlier, Have the AI ship spawn beside the player calling the reinforcements? 

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Obviously, it is no longer a safe area. It was when they went out to help first rates. And it's not that I say it, it's a popular clamor. This is a debate where people will never agree. Those who attack in the green zone seem to change well, those who carry merchants in the area feel little less than unprotected. There must be an intermediate point. For example, if one attacks in green zone with a fifth class, (trinco, endymion) the best fourth reinforcement class comes out (Consti, Agamemnon). Always a superior class to the boat that attacks. It is not the first class protection of before but you can get close to that intermediate point. Just like that, everyone is half satisfied. Regards!!.

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5 hours ago, King of Crowns said:

clearly stated by some one who doesn't pvp. PVE/NEWB has super ai reinforce zone. fortress/towers. open world AI. full 1 1/2 hour open battle in capital area that the enemy can freely choose the join location. none of these factors work towards the pvper. all of them work towards the newb. and any one of them could easily get you killed. 

what otto says here is 100% correct.   "AI should not do all the work of protecting home waters - players should do that. Battle beeing open for the whole duration is enough help. " until every nation runs a coast guard fleet they will loose players. GB has done a great job with their new coast guard. and it is working to save their newbs and create content. 

while i do agree with what you and otto have said, At times we need the AI to protect new players and such, especially at the moment when we have a low player count, sure when server was at 2k+ pop coastgaurd was easy for nations, but when some nights (day depending where you are) the pop can be as low as 150 split over all the nations, it becomes more difficult. We are never going to get an influx of players, if players are coming in, completing the tutorial, leaving port and being ganked. players are just going to decide fuck this, and even if they do give it a 2nd chance, as soon as it happens again, that will be them gone

Edited by Callaghan92

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I can only give an opinion on the few times I have attacked a Trader inside a reinforcement Zone.

The AI were no deterrent, spawned too far away, easy to outmanouver and escape from.

I cannot give any Input into the effectiveness of the AI when being attacked, as I have no safe Zone, can be attacked outside every port with no Chance to call for help.

This is not a complaint, we Chose the Nation we play for, but please, for those of you who can call reinforcements, thank your lucky stars, a ittle help is better than none

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