Reinforcement fleets: feedback

[admin]

Captains

Please provide your thoughts on the New class based reinforcement fleets. 
We heard a lot of negative feedback on mission cancellations for example. But might have missed your views on the reinforcements. Lets discuss them here.

Please also ask your friends or clanmates in game chat to also visit the forums and share their voice in this topic. 

• If you fought against them - what are you thoughts, do they provide enough protection to your enemy while keeping some risk?  Did you ever sink to reinforcement?
• if you used reinforcements - when did they help and when they were useless?

[Archaos]

Although I have had no direct experience of them I have heard that most feel they are ineffective. The reason I feel that there is not so much need for them at the moment is the fact that battles in the green zones stay open so people are getting the needed protection from other players and this deters the attackers from the attacks. I think if the battles in the green zone were not always open you would have more attacks on people in the zones and you would find that the reinforcements were not very effective.

[Christendom]

I've attacked several players in the reinforcement zones over the past week or so.  It's now incredibly easy to sink traders again.  

Outside of Belize this weekend I tagged a player in an LGV just south of the port.  Get a great tag, load chain with prepared and immediately rigging shock the guy.  Sail over, push him into the wind, board and over.  Since I was in a trinco the AI reinforcement was a AI belle poole and it spawned behind and downwind.  It simply couldn't get to us.  Capped and sunk the guy and made a course upwind further out of the battle.  Easy.  AI was a joke.  I felt bad for this guy.

Another situation outside KPR myself and 3-4 other VCO/CSA guys snagged an traders brig with 2 in fleet.  He called in reinforcements, but since we were in frigates they were only AI frigates.  Rage boarded the guy and the other captains boarded his AI ships.  All sunk.  some light chain on the AI and we sailed away.  Easy.

The threat of matching AI 5th rates is not enough to deter myself from hunting.  the AI 1st rates were.  

I know I saw the ex RUBLI guys outside Habana this weekend ganking in the safe zone with Hercules.  I assume they were getting in quick to sink and then just hitting the jets and running away.  

Safe zones are a joke now.  And it's a shame

 

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

Personally my views are this when concerning reinforcement zones since currently they act as a deterrent rather than a promoter of player interaction. Reinforcement zones should not provide AI support but rather the battle should remain open for whomever reinforcement zone it is and close for the aggressor or the one that does not control that reinforcement zone. For example a Swede attacks a Espana player outside Havana. For the Swede that battle closes like normal. For the Espana player the battle remains open till their opponent leaves, or there is no one still afloat. 

[Hethwill]

They can be helpful - if player stays with the spawned fleet - but in the majority the spawned rates can be inferior due to powerplay of models used by players have no counterpart in the OW nor in the reinforcement system.

Results being attacker was a 50-50. Results being attacked and using them was also 50-50. Both due to: 

 - Example, a 6th rate attacker will see a Snow spawning, which is really naught if the attacker is a Snake Heavy, a Hercules or a Niagara. Similar situation with other rates, Wasa for example.

The automatic spawn of reinforcements if more attackers join in is a nice touch by the way. We tested this to our own risk.

[MassimoSud]

I apologize but I never really understand what reinforcements are for! If they are used to protect a warship fighting ai then it s OK for me, they can help a new player to survive the attack of more experienced players. If they are used to protect traders in protected waters they are useless, they are quickly chained and put out of the battle! I understand the "need" to have protected areas for new players and for those who have little time and want to do a little bit of pve. What I do not understand is why these areas must be so big! Okay the capital and a couple of other ports where you can find the basic materials to craft basic ships, but otherwise it must be necessary to sail out of these protected areas. Unlike what sense have all the other ports (too many ports for too few players anyway atm).

[Hethwill]

Reinforcement Fleets, not Reinforcement Zones

 

[Vernon Merrill]

Only interaction I had was tagging a Indiaman between Mortimer and Ocean Bight.

Scenario:

Me in Prince de Neufchatel

Enemy in Indiaman (full crew, with guns)

Enemy called reinforcements immediately upon start of battle.  AI Snow appeared.  I was able to chain Indiaman down to 85% sails before Snow was within engagement distance.  Indiaman turned downwind and shot sails.  Realizing i could not slow down Indiaman enough to further engage or eventually board, I withdrew.

 

Feedback:

In my opinion, reinforcements are effective against SOLO opponents.  If I had another player with me, I believe we could have separated the player from the reinforcements and eventually capped/sunk enemy player.

Not sure if that is desired effect.  If it is, I'd call it a success.

 

[Archaos]

7 minutes ago, Christendom said:

I've attacked several players in the reinforcement zones over the past week or so.  It's now incredibly easy to sink traders again.  

Outside of Belize this weekend I tagged a player in an LGV just south of the port.  Get a great tag, load chain with prepared and immediately rigging shock the guy.  Sail over, push him into the wind, board and over.  Since I was in a trinco the AI reinforcement was a AI belle poole and it spawned behind and downwind.  It simply couldn't get to us.  Capped and sunk the guy and made a course upwind further out of the battle.  Easy.  AI was a joke.  I felt bad for this guy.

Another situation outside KPR myself and 3-4 other VCO/CSA guys snagged an traders brig with 2 in fleet.  He called in reinforcements, but since we were in frigates they were only AI frigates.  Rage boarded the guy and the other captains boarded his AI ships.  All sunk.  some light chain on the AI and we sailed away.  Easy.

The threat of matching AI 5th rates is not enough to deter myself from hunting.  the AI 1st rates were.  

I know I saw the ex RUBLI guys outside Habana this weekend ganking in the safe zone with Hercules.  I assume they were getting in quick to sink and then just hitting the jets and running away.  

Safe zones are a joke now.  And it's a shame

 

I know this is off topic, but what you describe here is more reason why DD should remain as is.

[Hethwill]

Just now, Intrepido said:

...

They, the reinforcement button, existed in other form long ago and there were no reinforcement zones as we have today, so they might or not be linked.

[Vernon Merrill]

2 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

People usually dont go alone to capitals. There are very few lone players left.

Fair enough, sir...  just providing MY feedback per Admin's request.  o7

 

[Wind]

@adminIf anything AI must spawn right next to the player. Side to side. This will change everything. The time it takes for support npc to reach , settle and actually help is tremendous. 

Spawn Ai right next to a player, give it preparation timer 25 secs with (boarding/damage protection) and then release it. 

Easy fix imho. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Wind

[Roronoa]

I was on both sides.

When i was the attacker i just chained the buffed ship once and he had to tack through the wind to turn into me, so basically the ship was too far away, because the ship i attack ran away in the complete other direction. I was able to the ship. More Players joined for reinforcements tho' but one guy joined my side as well, he outplayed the AI and we sank another player together and managed to escaped. So if you smartly outplay the reinforcement ship and the ship, which was attacked runs in another direction, the reinforcement is useless, but....

I was also the one who got tagged in safe zone. The enemy player chained the reinforcement ship with his first broadside, but i stayed together with the ship instead of running, because i knew it is a buffed ship. The reinforcement ship just kept hull smashing the enemy and i chained him, so the enemy was forced to sail repair and escape.

To sum up, it is easy to outplay the reinforcement ships and get to the player as the attacker, if you do it smart, but on the other hand it is also possible get your opponent into real trouble if you actually work together with the buffed ship.

I think it's ok though and not that overkill as 2 first rates.

[admin]

17 minutes ago, Christendom said:

 

I know I saw the ex RUBLI guys outside Habana this weekend ganking in the safe zone with Hercules.  I assume they were getting in quick to sink and then just hitting the jets and running away.  

Safe zones are a joke now.  And it's a shame

 

This design has the purpose

Because reinforcements are mirrored - if you hunt in a 6th rate you will get an ineffective reinforcement. 
If you hunt in heavy frigate or a third rate - reinforced 4th rate will provide serious challenge

This promotes hunting in light ships. I think its sort of brilliant unexpected outcome of the mirror as we always wanted to encourage hunting in light ships like real privateers. 

[Christendom]

1 minute ago, Archaos said:

I know this is off topic, but what you describe here is more reason why DD should remain as is.

 

6 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Now I know why you are against Determined Defender.

Determined defender did not help these players.

There is a considerable amount of precedence in the history books of privateers/pirates jumping in at the weak point of a convoy, boarding the ship and getting away with it.  Ganking traders in the reinforcement zones is very similar in this regard.  Traders typically ran barebones crews to maximize profit and were heavily susceptible to boarding actions.  As they should be.  My gripe is not that there is DD, just that it is too OP in it's current state.  I've completed demasted larger ships and taken 80 crew off of them and still cannot board.  The DD perk highly bends realism and ruins gameplay.  Revise the perk and make it cost more so not everybody and their brother can run it  without sacrificing something.

Another situation in brit waters this weekend where I tagged a lone trinc in my trinc.  He spawned the AI reinforcements and stayed with them.  I didn't attempt to board since our crew levels were similar.  A little bit of chain on him and the AI and it was easy to manage fighting both.  He ended up sunk, just took a little longer.  the new super AI hurt, but they are still AI and get stuck constantly.  I got a bonus in this fight also.  A random player joined in a brig to help and I just sailed past the AI and sunk him too.  The only hinderance the new reinforcement zones are to solo hunters is you need to carry more repairs.  

[admin]

14 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

 

In my opinion, reinforcements are effective against SOLO opponents.  If I had another player with me, I believe we could have separated the player from the reinforcements and eventually capped/sunk enemy player.

Not sure if that is desired effect.  If it is, I'd call it a success.

 

We did not envision it but it is an unexpected interesting outcome. If you hunt in advanced 6th rates (like niagara, prince, herc or rattle) you will only see brigs and snows as a reinforcement. 

[Guest]

The AI fleet reinforcement is of very little value atm. It no longer causes fear. At best, its a bother than can be worked around or avoided.

[Thonys]

My experience.:

i was in a lgv and  ganked by a surprise once, and called in reinforcement by the 8 and got a frigate sized dhip 

it did do no significant damage and it could escape from the frigate

i have escaped to but that was because i crippled the surprise his sails and was faster than the surprise

also when a friendly bellona came in the battle he the surprise  turned away from the fight and left the battle ..

reinforcement is not a decisive factor to hold a ship in battle or sink a vessel (if commanded that way)

so the battle was 3vs1 and the player escaped with minor damage

at least i could escape and that was the outcome  and  a objective from the start of the battle

conclusion:

helpful: yes 

decisive : not really ,but i think it is not needed also

but on the other hand if the attacker decide to stay attacking only the player, the defending  AI ship may be a little more aggressive (build up rng> for ignoring the defenders [reverse opportunity])

1 extra vessel is needed

 

in eve :

when you attack in the hs zone, you die(sink) in in 99% of the case,-  in our game (yours actually) the ration could be 50/50 (sail  away or attack)

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Thonys

[admin]

1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

The brilliant outcome right now is more new players complaining in nation chat and probably leaving the game sooner.

Send them here to this topic once it happens - (its an admiralty order ;))

[Christendom]

5 minutes ago, admin said:

This design has the purpose

Because reinforcements are mirrored - if you hunt in a 6th rate you will get an ineffective reinforcement. 
If you hunt in heavy frigate or a third rate - reinforced 4th rate will provide serious challenge

This promotes hunting in light ships. I think its sort of brilliant unexpected outcome of the mirror as we always wanted to encourage hunting in light ships like real privateers. 

Yea but PVPers already have EVERY advantage in this game.  You need to throw a bone to the little people or they will stop playing.  Which it seems they already have.  

Players like Dron and Moscalb are going to sink players wherever they are found regardless of what changes are made to the game.  We shouldn't be making it easier for them.  We should be making it easier for the guy who's been playing 2 days and just sailed out in his brand new surprise outside his nation's capital where presumably he thinks and HISTORICALLY he would be safe.  Except now he isn't. 

This perhaps the only MMO i've played that has factions (nations) and if you travel 2 mins outside your capital you can lose everything.  This should not be a thing.

[admin]

3 minutes ago, victor said:

I do not think that a player that has already decided to leave the game would like to waste his time in coming on the forums.

Only players that still care still complain.

those who left cannot read chat
We are interested in those who want to complain about the reinforcements and still read chat.

 

[Iroquois Confederacy]

I actually took an old Endymion into Brit waters last night to test out reworked reinforcement zones.  Hit a TBrig, and he got... a Belle Poule, if memory serves.  The BP didn't really do anything, but the player was kinda slow on the uptake and kept trying to run instead of hooking up with the Belle Poule.

Eventually, he got other players in the fight, became something like a 10v1, and I kamikaze'd him to take out the TBrig, and was sunk after a while in the process.

My take-away?  Reinforcements are only as useful as the player who calls them.  If the player does not care to stick by them, they're going to be useless.  Other players who come in and who can guide the player will give better guidance in real time, and say something like, "Hey, sail towards us and we can protect you."

I'd say they work as intended.  They can scare off a player (or not, if the player doesn't care about the ship), but not guarantee that the invader is sunk for daring to sail into a protection zone.

[admin]

Just now, Christendom said:

Yea but PVPers already have EVERY advantage in this game.  You need to throw a bone to the little people or they will stop playing.  Which it seems they already have.  

 

Would love to talk about reinforcements mirrors and their strength and numbers. Not individual skill of some veterans. 

Lets also not forget that there is PVE ONLY server just in case.

[Christendom]

1 minute ago, Wind said:

solid content foundation

Hard to have one of these when people aren't even safe sailing 2mins outside their own capitals.  

[admin]

Just now, victor said:

Mind I wrote that "decided to leave", not that "have left". 😎

Sorry for off topic. 
Please don't be upset or angry about players who leave. 80% of players leave even hit games. 40% of of players have not even reached the first boss in DS3. 
We should focus on increasing the inflow - irrespective from the inflow 80% will always leave. WOT drop off was above 87%. 

But if someone plans to leave because of reinforcement specifically - we would like them to come to comment