The Art of the Grapple (Boarding Improvements)

[Slim McSauce]

Let me start this suggestion by reminding everyone how boarding and grappling is done currently. You get your enemy and yourself under 3 knts, press a button and if they're close enough you get an immediate board. If they're a bit far away but still in range you get an immediate grapple and board. Not much of a difference and it's a bit o' silly how fast you can get boarded sometimes. Pressing G almost a game-over button and can disrupt the flow of any battle with little skill. Here's the suggestion;

-A new way to grapple, grappling shouldn't be an immediate thing. It should take a bit of time to throw a grapple and more than 1 grapple would be enough to pull a ship. Many grapples would need to be latched in order to get the required force to pull the ship close. The way I suggest grappling should work is everytime you press G, 1 grapple is thrown. This can either be shown visually or with simple texts, ether way you throw 1 grapple, then a cooldown is put until you can press g again and set the 2nd grapple. The grapple lands and you get more pull power. Once a third grapple is thrown then you get the full pull power.

The ship being grappled has a few choices here, either try to sail away with enough force to break the grapples before all 3 can be set, or alternatively there should be a counter to grappling. By pressing g once a grapple has set on your ship, you get a chance to cut that grapple and free yourself. It would work the same way as throwing the grapple, except it would be percentage based how likely you are to cut the rope. 

So to put it in play, an enemy ship grapples throws it's first grapple, you counter with g and the cut fails, you're very slowly being pulled towards the ship. The second grapple lands and you try to cut again, it succeeds and is back to 1 grapple, by this time you've regained speed and with enough force you break away from the last grapple. No longer do you immediately get pulled and boarded by a ship, this is more realistic and imo more balanced that the current system and is a fairly simple addition that would improve the quality of combat.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Tomasso il Fortunato]

Nice mechanics. I like them .

[Carlos_Condell]

i think this will be awesome!! 

[vazco]

IMO it's s too complex. A simple extension of time between pressing g and boarding would be enough. It could also allow to remove DD. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by vazco

[Capt Jubal Early]

Nah I don't like it. The reality is once a ship is prepared to board another they would have multiple grapples ready. You could expect multiple men to be throwing them. Also if the defending ship is not prepared to repell borders they wouldn't have axes prepared to cut ropes. Boarding supplies would be stowed and lashed down so it takes time to prepare them. 

 

Also the current disengage is basically what your talking about except with the added bonus of you still get crew damage from the on going boarding attack,

[Hethwill]

Advance half mast ahead of the enemy vessel... then setup quarter deck and upper rigging graple crew...Mess up with enemy rig ...Hook lines, pull, watch their yards turn, their trim becoming messed up. Snipe the helmsman ( 7 in a row even on occasion ). Reality is way more complex that what we have in game

... If you think not just think .... We battle at full sails 90% of the time. We sharp corner the wind at full tops...

I suggest that to be looked at before any complexity to "initiate boarding actions" is recoded.

[Slim McSauce]

1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

Advance half mast ahead of the enemy vessel... then setup quarter deck and upper rigging graple crew...Mess up with enemy rig ...Hook lines, pull, watch their yards turn, their trim becoming messed up. Snipe the helmsman ( 7 in a row even on occasion ). Reality is way more complex that what we have in game

... If you think not just think .... We battle at full sails 90% of the time. We sharp corner the wind at full tops...

I suggest that to be looked at before any complexity to "initiate boarding actions" is recoded.

Sorry I don't follow, can you explain what you mean by this? The way I see it is that whatever crew the attacking ship can have ready to throw grapples and whatever, the defender can have just as many ready to repel the grapple with axes when they see the enemy close and ready to attack. This is simulated by the suggestion, you can counter the initial volley of grapple by also being ready with prep high. Crew ready with boarding axes to cut the lines and give you a shot to get away.

It can be a coin flip, calculate the difference in number of crew, prep, and maybe morale for each ship compared together. Make sure this % is shown when g is shown so players can get an idea of how their ships match up, (not a compromise, if we could get an eye visual of the enemy crew then we wouldn't need a number or bar, but due to performance we can't.)

That's pretty fair, you can't say instant grab and pull is fun nor realistic can you? Ships are large unstable platforms that as you say go very fast. But that will change when devs add bonuses to battle sails, chain is as powerful as ever and demasting is never an issue unless you're really bad at aiming or packing mediums. Gameplay wise everybody complains about boarding and I don't like it either. The way you can be pushed up against the win by the hull of your ship then immediately hook tied and sunk isn't any better. 

Those are the two thing I say need to be looked at. Boarding is pretty underwhelming compared to cannon combat. I get it's a common way to do it in games like this (looking at any flash-based or mobile age of sail "sim") It just doesn't work well in real time combat. I'm sure those men would do anything they could to get untied of they could and if they're ready with 100% prep and an even odds of crew they should have a fair chance to get away at that moment.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Hethwill]

You are correct. Was not a dissatisfaction of the suggestion.

But...

Boarding Axes simulate it in our abstraction - you have 2 turns to cut all cables.

Your crew has no damn clue where the grapples going to fall. They have to move to the locations.

Further...

If it can be improved !? 100% with you.

My opinion is - at the expense of the "always at full sail wind and turn and burn" - which never happened.

[Angus MacDuff]

The boarding needs to be expanded so that other ships can join in.  Additionally, you should still be able to aim and fire your guns externally.  The 'fire deck guns' portion of the mini game is wrong. Boarding is hand to hand and deck guns point externally. 

[z4ys]

1 minute ago, Oberon74 said:

The boarding needs to be expanded so that other ships can join in.  Additionally, you should still be able to aim and fire your guns externally.  The 'fire deck guns' portion of the mini game is wrong. Boarding is hand to hand and deck guns point externally. 

I always thought "fire deck guns" are the not visual swivel guns (except for the lgv refit) and top deck guns that could be aimed at the other deck.

That would at least explain why the cerb has much more fire deck gun power (13 deck guns) as the reno (2 deck guns)

[Angus MacDuff]

7 minutes ago, z4ys said:

I always thought "fire deck guns" are the not visual swivel guns (except for the lgv refit) and top deck guns that could be aimed at the other deck.

That would at least explain why the cerb has much more fire deck gun power (13 deck guns) as the reno (2 deck guns)

Once the melee begins, even a swivel would be deadly to both sides. 

[Wind]

There should be simple mechanics like these @admin Values are for example purposes only

Speed scale that dictates grapple chance. If you fail the attempt refresh timer with 25 seconds in on before next attempt. You are vulnerable to boarding, but enemy is now protected for 25 seconds. It must be a gamble game, right now grapple is too simple and too easy. There is no flavor to it. 

 Speed scale (scale that allows grapple at certain speeds)

0 knots <----> 5 knts

  100%  <---- >  1% 

-----------------------------

Defense mod impacts Default Offence + Mod offence.

Ex.

7 Offence - 6.5 Defense = +0.5% Offence Bonus left after Debuff or 30.5%@3knots

7 Offence - 0 Defense = +7% Offence Bonus left after Debuff or Enemy has a grapple bonus of 37%@3knots

0 Offence - 6.5 Defense = +6.5% Defence Bonus left after Debuff or Enemy has only 13.5% chance @4 knots

     NO MODS 0%                                DEFENSE MOD  -6.5%                             OFFENCE MOD +7%

0 knots = 100% Chance               0 knots = 100% Chance                   0 knots = 100% Chance 

1 knot = 70% Chance                   1 knot = 63.5% Chance                        1 knot = 77% Chance

2 knots = 60% Chance                2 knots = 53.5% Chance                        2 knots = 67% Chance    

3 knots = 30% Chance                3 knots = 23.5% Chance                        3 knots = 37% Chance

4 knots = 20% Chance                4 knots = 13.5% Chance                         5 knots = 27% Chance

5 knots = 1% Chance                  5 knots = 0% Chance                                5 knots = 8% Chance

Grapple Defense (Fights Enemy grapple chance and reduces it's effectiveness)

    -Mods that slightly shift the whole grapple chance scale. Ex. +6.5% Defense would make enemy grapple chance at 3 knots only 23.5% (without mod 30%)

Mod rarity:

Common +1.5% Grapple Defence

Rare +4.5% Grapple Defence

Exceptional +6.5% Grapple Defence

Grapple Offence (Fights Victims Grappling Defense and increases grapple chance)

   -Mods that slightly shift the whole grapple chance scale. Ex. +7% Offence would make grapple chance at 3 knots  35% (without mod 30%)

Mod rarity:

Common +2% Grapple Offence

Rare +5% Grapple Offence

Exceptional +7% Grapple Offence

Ship hull shape grapple bonus

Ships with square like hulls get grapple defense as permanent perk. Ex Santisima hull +5% grapple defense.  

Hull shape bonuses:

Square - +5% (hard to grapple and climb)

Round - +2% (somewhat hard to grapple and climb)

Oval - -5% penalty to grapple defence (easy to grapple and climb)

These are simple things that should be in NA without question. @Hethwill could you direct this suggestion to Devs plz, see if this can be done?

Edited May 18, 2018 by Wind

[Angus MacDuff]

Come to think about it, why do we need the mini game.  Rock, paper, scissors with disadvantages to those with a slower machine.  Get rid of it and make boarding automated.  Throw in all the factors on both ships, give us a nice little movie of a boarding action and tell us the result.  Everybody seems to hate the mini game.

[Hethwill]

Just now, Oberon74 said:

Come to think about it, why do we need the mini game.  Rock, paper, scissors with disadvantages to those with a slower machine.  Get rid of it and make boarding automated.  Throw in all the factors on both ships, give us a nice little movie of a boarding action and tell us the result.  Everybody seems to hate the mini game.

A timer to submit 3 moves sequence - hidden.

Then it plays out.

Rinse and repeat.

You gave orders to your men, they engage, you cease to have control and micromanagement.

 

[Fletch]

I don't mind the boarding game if im honest. Could be some animations with it but I don't think its that bad.

[Angus MacDuff]

47 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

A timer to submit 3 moves sequence - hidden.

Then it plays out.

Rinse and repeat.

You gave orders to your men, they engage, you cease to have control and micromanagement.

 

Meanwhile, you man your guns (as long as you have some crew) and blow holes in anybody you can see.  Crank up that Patrol Zone damage and/or seriously hurt your attacker. As discussed before, gunners on the lower deck can continue firing

[Hethwill]

Just now, Oberon74 said:

As discussed before, gunners on the lower deck can continue firing

For sure. Would even make it an on/off order. A trade raider won't want the prize full of holes.

 

[Capn Rocko]

I think its fine. Out of all the improvements that I would like to see made, grapple is not even on the list. It takes seconds to tack through the wind in battle, why shouldn't it take seconds to pull a ship into boarding?

[Slim McSauce]

1 minute ago, Capn Rocko said:

I think its fine. Out of all the improvements that I would like to see made, grapple is not even on the list. It takes seconds to tack through the wind in battle, why shouldn't it take seconds to pull a ship into boarding?

Grappling is instant, it takes no time to do. Tacking is fine, boarding is not.

[vazco]

1 hour ago, Oberon74 said:

Come to think about it, why do we need the mini game.  Rock, paper, scissors with disadvantages to those with a slower machine.  Get rid of it and make boarding automated.  Throw in all the factors on both ships, give us a nice little movie of a boarding action and tell us the result.  Everybody seems to hate the mini game.

I like the mini game and many others do. Having boarding automated destroys all the fun of it.

56 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

As discussed before, gunners on the lower deck can continue firing

The problem is that during a boarding action you could get down to a gun deck, or even board gun decks from your own gun deck, and prevent enemy from firing. With the current game speeds for reloading and boarding, every boarding action would result in sinking of probably both vessels - something that never happened.

[Wind]

3 minutes ago, vazco said:

I like the mini game and many others do. Having boarding automated destroys all the fun of it.

 

Grappling discussion, not boarding. WTH? @Oberon74

Edited May 18, 2018 by Wind

[Wind]

1 hour ago, Oberon74 said:

Come to think about it, why do we need the mini game.  Rock, paper, scissors with disadvantages to those with a slower machine.  Get rid of it and make boarding automated.  Throw in all the factors on both ships, give us a nice little movie of a boarding action and tell us the result.  Everybody seems to hate the mini game.

Read the topic - Art of Grapple, not art of boarding. Get back on track! sailor. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Wind

[Capn Rocko]

14 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Grappling is instant, it takes no time to do. Tacking is fine, boarding is not.

Why not? it takes no time to do

Edited May 19, 2018 by Capn Rocko

[Slim McSauce]

5 hours ago, Capn Rocko said:

Why not? it takes no time to do

Because it isn't realistic or practical from a gameplay perspective. Rage boarding is a very specific problem that has been talked about plenty of times before. Determined Defender is a direct result of the problem with the current way boarding is set up. No one is complaining about tacking or cannon reloads speed not matching up. People are complaining that they're being rammed up wind, insta-boarded and swarmed unable to counter, even with 100% prep and equal crew.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Capt Jubal Early]

1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:

Because it isn't realistic or practical from a gameplay perspective. Rage boarding is a very specific problem that has been talked about plenty of times before. Determined Defender is a direct result of the problem with the current way boarding is set up. No one is complaining about tacking or cannon reloads speed not matching up. People are complaining that they're being rammed up wind, insta-boarded and swarmed unable to counter, even with 100% prep and equal crew.

Who's complaining about that? That sounds like a load of horse crap. Determined defender needs reworking. Boarding as a whole needs reworking.

The actual process of initiating the grapple is fine. Were not going to get a more realistic grapple and i think its simulated ok and its not always instant and the battles are at a increased time anyway so i don't see the problamo.