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Angus MacDuff

Trade to captured ports

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Currently, if I want to make a decent profit on a commodity, Arctic Fox Fur for example, I have to go where it is produced, buy it, and bring it to my Capitol port for sale.  But what if a port that my clan has taken worked the same way for prices as the capitol?  I would then be very interested in trading in different places in the OW.  I would hunt AI there and sell my loot there....without a green zone. My clan might open the port (and the Gucci prices) to others.  Would this not improve the OW experience, encourage RVR and PVP?

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Increase value of trading goods by decreasing resource prodction of buildings in that port, for example?

As town option to choose like trading outpost or LH choice?

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Actually, I meant to simply mirror the prices from your capitol port.  Where most ports buy Arctic Fox at 8k each, a capitol port will give you 24k. This would greatly encourage hunting AI in distant waters.

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Just now, Oberon74 said:

Actually, I meant to simply mirror the prices from your capitol port.  Where most ports buy Arctic Fox at 8k each, a capitol port will give you 24k. This would greatly encourage hunting AI in distant waters.

But then all all ports would be like that why would your port be special in that case?

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Just now, z4ys said:

But then all all ports would be like that why would your port be special in that case?

Only a port that your clan takes in a PB

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lets say your clan takes 4 ports. Why should all ports be like that? Maybe you dont know but ports have those 2 options currently why not add a 3rd one with the effect you suggested?

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Edited by z4ys

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This is how it should work in my opinion. Taxes should be so high on capitol zone ports, and neighboring uncapturable county ports, that clans should be fighting to get ports outside where the most lucrative trading can take place.

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34 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Taxes should be so high on capitol zone ports, and neighboring uncapturable county ports, that clans should be fighting to get ports outside where the most lucrative trading can take place.

The startup ramp for actual merchant activity is steep enough as it is.

Does not take a whole lot of math for me to be pretty sure this would have likely choked off what I have been doing the last six weeks.

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18 minutes ago, Marcus Corvus said:

The startup ramp for actual merchant activity is steep enough as it is.

Does not take a whole lot of math for me to be pretty sure this would have likely choked off what I have been doing the last six weeks.

How?  "Actual merchant activity" primarily consists now of in-port towing your trader brig fleet to an outpost where you're accruing your high margin items for no effort beyond setting a contract. Picking them up, waiting until an off time to sail out just far enough until you can sail AFK on an uncommonly travelled route back to a point close enough to tow in to your safe zone port of interest and maybe sailing one port over to the capital to sell.  All the while this activity does nothing to support clans who are paying for timers, risking ships, etc. 

You can still do this as long as tows and slings are still in the game even if higher taxes were levied inside of safe zones.  But what it would do is more tightly integrate the trading, taxing, RvR, escorting, and hunting parts of the game and encourage people to migrate out of the safe zones once they get their feet on the ground.  I'd go so far as to increase labor hour cost for player production in non-capturable ports by 100% as well.

We need to be encouraging people to leave the safe zones. This isn't punishment, as you can still live your entire life in the safe zones if you want. Your progression and wealth accumulation will just be slower, that's all, as long as you wish to remain in low risk, low reward areas. This is the same as almost every other mixed PvE/PvP MMO on the market.

Edited by Wraith
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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

How?  "Actual merchant activity" primarily consists now of in-port towing your trader brig fleet to an outpost where you're accruing your high margin items for no effort beyond setting a contract. Picking them up, waiting until an off time to sail out just far enough until you can sail AFK on an uncommonly travelled route back to a point close enough to tow in to your safe zone port of interest and maybe sailing one port over to the capital to sell.  All the while this activity does nothing to support clans who are paying for timers, risking ships, etc.

Really.

Part of my operation involves production, transport and sale of shipbuilding resources.  As a startup operator it was how I generated enough income without an alt to support getting out of the green zone in the first place. Then it was the whole nut.  It now feeds mostly into shipbuilding and sales and the resource costs are factored in.

It never had anhything to do with trader brig fleet towing or AFK sailing anywhere.  Which would have been a very bad idea as a startup as it means ditching your repairs and running as a sitting duck.  Unacceptable risk of startup capital.  And for a restricted hour player there is no such thing as waiting for an off time.  You play when you have time to log on.

Pick any shipbuilding resource you like.  Calculate the per unit production cost. Now track sales contracts in a capital market and see what prices it actually sells at with any consistency.

What you will find is that the euro trader AI x4 contract price is a pretty effective ceiling on the market.  Which means there is not a whole lot slack in the price swings at which you can generate consistent, meaningful  cash flow.

Now you want to raise  the taxes.

 

 

Edited by Marcus Corvus

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3 hours ago, Marcus Corvus said:

Now you want to raise  the taxes.

Well, I can appreciate you wanting to participate in this side of the pseudo-player-run economy but as I'm sure you're more than aware if you've been involved in it this is the shallowest side of the game mechanics that Naval Action has to offer. That you can do the calculating is admirable, and if you've bothered to do so, you know you'd be much, much better off making money doing what I described in order to maximize profits and just eurotrade anything you need.

Ship building as a solo player is... inefficient, to put it mildly. But I'm not here to tell you how to play the game and if this turns your screw.. great, keep at it! But you have to understand how all of the mechanics I describe fit together. The ships you produce are being purchased by people who lose them and who are not participating in a clan ship .line. You rely on 1) them having the money to buy them and 2) having a continued reason to keep losing and buying ships.  Without PvP and RvR one of those reasons disappears (though arguably, the vast majority of PvP and RvR focused players are participating in clan shiplines and would never buy from you in the first place, so take that with a grain of salt).

So as a merchant and a ship crafter you should be welcoming higher risk, higher reward opportunities for your buyers. This provides you with both more well-funded buyers and a continuous demand for your products.  Plus, and here's the real kicker, if you were doing this under my proposed mechanics outside of the safe zone, your profit margins would be higher in the places where people were actually needing those ships and products...   

You need to look at this from a systemic perspective, and one that includes play styles other than yours.  

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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Well, I can appreciate you wanting to participate in this side of the pseudo-player-run economy but as I'm sure you're more than aware if you've been involved in it this is the shallowest side of the game mechanics that Naval Action has to offer. That you can do the calculating is admirable, and if you've bothered to do so, you know you'd be much, much better off making money doing what I described in order to maximize profits and just eurotrade anything you need.

Ship building as a solo player is... inefficient, to put it mildly. But I'm not here to tell you how to play the game and if this turns your screw.. great, keep at it! But you have to understand how all of the mechanics I describe fit together. The ships you produce are being purchased by people who lose them and who are not participating in a clan ship .line. You rely on 1) them having the money to buy them and 2) having a continued reason to keep losing and buying ships.  Without PvP and RvR one of those reasons disappears (though arguably, the vast majority of PvP and RvR focused players are participating in clan shiplines and would never buy from you in the first place, so take that with a grain of salt).

So as a merchant and a ship crafter you should be welcoming higher risk, higher reward opportunities for your buyers. This provides you with both more well-funded buyers and a continuous demand for your products.  Plus, and here's the real kicker, if you were doing this under my proposed mechanics outside of the safe zone, your profit margins would be higher in the places where people were actually needing those ships and products...   

You need to look at this from a systemic perspective, and one that includes play styles other than yours.  

 

I don't have a quibble with improving the incentives for going OW.  Which I already do, as I work both areas.  Nor do I have a an issue with other folk's play styles.

My issue is with the notion that screwing with the economics of the Capitol zone is a good idea.  If the taxes go up in the Capital zone the euro trader mechanic needs to go away.  Raise taxes without doing that, and you throttle the contract activity, for the clans included.

It's just math.

Find another solution.

Edited by Marcus Corvus

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20 minutes ago, Marcus Corvus said:

 

I don't have a quibble with improving the incentives for going OW.  Which I already do, as I work both areas.  Nor do I have a an issue with other folk's play styles.

My issue is with the notion that screwing with the economics of the Capitol zone is a good idea.  If the taxes go up in the Capital zone the euro trader mechanic needs to go away.  It's just math.

Find another solution.

Sorry, the math has nothing to say about these types of interactions and a proposal to increase taxes inside safe/green zones other than shifting profitability from inside to outside the safe zones.

I don't think you're actually thinking (or quantifying things) through. Your protests essentially amount to whinging about wanting no-risk, max-reward play, and that's doing nothing other than enriching trader/crafters who play in safe zones and sinking gold to the ether.  You should instead be giving that tax revenue over to clans that are protecting your borders with their timers.

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22 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sorry, the math has nothing to say about these types of interactions and a proposal to increase taxes inside safe/green zones other than shifting profitability from inside to outside the safe zones.

I don't think you're actually thinking (or quantifying things) through. Your protests essentially amount to whinging about wanting no-risk, max-reward play, and that's doing nothing other than enriching trader/crafters who play in safe zones and sinking gold to the ether.  You should instead be giving that tax revenue over to clans that are protecting your borders with their timers.

I sell production resources at 2.25 to 2.5 to one.  I buy and sell trade commodities in the Bahamas at 3 to 1 with maximized hold values.  I suspect I can do better as I expand my range.  So don't lecture me on where to trade or whom to trade with.

I suspect the developers did actual math when they set the eurotrader level where it is.

So yes.  The math is relevant.

We will need to agree to disagree on this.

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1 hour ago, Marcus Corvus said:

I sell production resources at 2.25 to 2.5 to one.  I buy and sell trade commodities in the Bahamas at 3 to 1 with maximized hold values.  I suspect I can do better as I expand my range.  So don't lecture me on where to trade or whom to trade with.

I suspect the developers did actual math when they set the eurotrader level where it is.

So yes.  The math is relevant.

We will need to agree to disagree on this.

You clearly are not reading or comprehending the argument here: The entire point is not about your margin (you could do better but I won’t tell you how to trade) but about where you are getting it.

The most profitable trade runs and crafting hubs should be at capturable ports where taxes and openness can be determined by the clans that capture them. Margins and overhead should make operating out of the low risk areas not impossible but less desirable, so that new players want to get out and set up econ outside those safe zones.

Anything else makes no sense from an economic or game mechanics standpoint.

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The original proposal does not suggest that prices would change anywhere else, so existing trade routes would not be affected.  Only in Captured "Clan Capitols" would the prices be brought to the same level as National Capitols.  Now, if a clan were to set lower taxes....Marcus might find a ...gasp... more lucrative trade route. 

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7 hours ago, Wraith said:

You clearly are not reading or comprehending the argument here: The entire point is not about your margin (you could do better but I won’t tell you how to trade) but about where you are getting it.

The most profitable trade runs and crafting hubs should be at capturable ports where taxes and openness can be determined by the clans that capture them. Margins and overhead should make operating out of the low risk areas not impossible but less desirable, so that new players want to get out and set up econ outside those safe zones.

Anything else makes no sense from an economic or game mechanics standpoint.

Oh for Pete's sake.

I completely get your argument.  I just disagree with one part of the means you are using to get to the objective.

We're done here.

Edited by Marcus Corvus

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