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JonnyH13

J & P Rebalance Mod by JonnyH13 and Pandakraut 6/14/18

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I had experimented something along the lines of Killjoy1941 with the melee cav and skrimisher .... I search the artillery, which is normally either a single battery or two close by, I sneak the cav behind and charge them .... once I have them turn, I have my skrimishers with the sniper rifle start taking popshots at the arty....

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I took a stab at trying to make a shilo video but video software playing for almost 2 hours but after the fact I learned didn't cooperate. But it was fun learning the ropes with a new playstyle. In this case I played with no saves, no pausing, just raw Real Time Strategy. I know it is not the mod's fault but the placement of units in Shilo is very, very counter intuitive. You would think that the first few units of each corp would start on their respective sides but if you follow this logic you could all the strong units on one side and all the weak units on another. Only trial and error would allow any degree of control on how reinforcements come out. On the other hand, isn't the point of Shilo as the Union is that your corps are a mess and you are just buying time as they all organize together?

 

Skirmishers really sank in my eyes playing the battle non stop, warts and all. They hogged a lot of micro to get maybe 130 kills with 30 deaths. At the end, hunting for one unit of ranged cav along with the rest of the army (they were not isolated), they managed to get themselves ambushed and thus ended up with a 1:1 ratio with very expensive guns with very intense micro. The greenhorns with cheap muskets just out perform in every way. I will be restarting my campaign and have my single specialist unit be melee cav rather then skirmishing, they would get a lot more mileage.

Edited by chemical_art

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Playing without pausing is almost a different game. At the moment I think you're right to choose cavalry over skirmishers. They are still micro intensive but at least they are in or out, no sitting in range of enemy units waiting to get charged.

If it was possible to force manual deployment zones in all battles I would. I'm not sure that's achievable through modding though.

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Yes i think cav are better then skirmishers right now. Another knock against them is that due to how the weapon stats are set up now skirmishers tire while firing, while infantry hold steady or even ever so slightly can condition while firing (due to how firing occurs and units get larger). However with a bit a of irony i see myself getting a group eventually, those hunter rifles in my armory are free, and it is still rifle range...which meana by the last battle i can have one two star skirmisher group. Ha.

 

 

Edited by chemical_art

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Uuuhaaa, a new vanilla game patch has just been posted fixing the supply perk and some other things. Time to update your mod. :D

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55 minutes ago, Hister said:

Uuuhaaa, a new vanilla game patch has just been posted fixing the supply perk and some other things. Time to update your mod. :D

Just read the same thing and was going to ask the same thing.....should we update before or after you fix the mod

Edited by i64man

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Taking the update and then reinstalling the mod appears to work. This will overwrite any hotfix changes though. Not updating is probably the best solution for now though. It'll take us some time to reapply the changes on the new patch. Updates to follow once we have a chance to see what was modified.

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With the new patch the oversized brigades on Bull Run are mostly gone even on Legendary. As the Union you get about 7k fewer allied troops but face about 6k less enemy troops. Considering that's trading 0 star for 3 star that battle will now be much much easier. As the CSA you get about 8k fewer troops and face 10k less on Legendary. Depending on your army setup you can still end up facing 3.5k - 4k units. So overall Union now probably has the easier Bull Run, but they have the much harder version of Shiloh. 

Mod update probably won't be for a few days at least. There will be a few AI and balance updates rolled in however.

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I just finished Shiloh as the CSA, and after the fight, I went to refill my army only to find it with all units locked at the current strength level. I have not uploaded the fix from the game. Could it be that the fix was automatically installed and as a result my strength is locked as it?

20180519152112_1.jpg

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1 hour ago, i64man said:

I have not uploaded the fix from the game. Could it be that the fix was automatically installed and as a result my strength is locked as it?

Steam probably auto updated. Check your career screen to see if the base game infantry size is showing. To reinstall you can just copy over the assets file and the dll again.

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3 hours ago, pandakraut said:

Steam probably auto updated. Check your career screen to see if the base game infantry size is showing. To reinstall you can just copy over the assets file and the dll again.

You were correct, Steam auto-updated the game, the infantry size is 1500.

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Skirmishers are turning out to be long-term investment units that require points in recon to really shine. Once you get at least Recon 4, they're exceedingly well equipped to let you direct cav to vulnerable units. Just don't expect them to perform any other real function, so take at most one per corps and let them run around with cheap carbines.

You can use them in a more traditional game role, but you're going to have to bring them to a lot of battles to get the requisite 3 stars for real effectiveness. Also, give them high damage weapons for maximum effect.

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The spotting bonus from recon is beneficial and can ease many battles with more time for positioning. Just 4 points makes a large difference in the big picture. Also knowing when the perfect time to counter attack is one less guess to make. In addition every once in a while you get a free volley because you are aware of the enemy presence and they are not.

 

It would seem one would need to invest in either 2-4 recon or skirmishers (of literally any kind) to get the most common bonus spotting range of 1000 totalish.  Dedicated micro and money can get you more stars for your skirmishers so they can get a little more kills for the unit slot they occupy. Or you can burn a career point and have everyone see 50 more. Some strategies benefit much more for more extensive spotting then others but all benefit to at least an extra 200 bonus range I think.

Edited by chemical_art

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2 hours ago, ajco1 said:

How can you tell if the mod has been installed ?

Check the general perk tooltips. The perks should basically all be renamed and have new bonuses.

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On 5/18/2018 at 4:54 AM, chemical_art said:

the placement of units in Shilo is very, very counter intuitive.

I found something interesting related to this, the closer to the max of 20 units in each corps you bring the more units will get deployed in the initial stages. For example, on the Union right if you only bring 12 units in your first corps 6 units deploy. But if you bring 20, 10 units will deploy.

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I'm fairly certain that's true of every battle that gives you your units in stages. Any time you have a highlighted corps slot in the battle planning screen, you generally want to max out its capacity precisely. Bring too few and you're wasting potential. Bring too many and you risk an inefficient comp as the game might be choosing for you.

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Comparing Union Bull Run and Shiloh, the difference is that at Bull Run if you bring fewer units your initial units are front loaded. At Bull Run you have two reinforcement blocks, a set of 5 and a set of 6. If you bring 8 units you will get 5 in the first wave and 4 in the second(supply is included in the unit count in this scenario). The way Bull Run works this barely matters, but it's what I have data for.

At Shiloh the right flank deploy takes your total units in the first corps, divides that value in half and places that number of units on the right flank. So if you bring 10 units you would expect all 10 units to spawn in on the right flank if the battle worked the same as Bull Run. While you wouldn't get any reinforcements, you would have the maximum amount of units available to hold off the initial phase. However, instead you would only get 5 units in the first phase. This would obviously cause problems on the left flank if it worked this way but it helps illustrate the point.

I haven't checked all of the battles to see if any others are setup like Shiloh, but it does seem beneficial to always bring the max number of units in the primary corps. I tend to try and do this anyways so it doesn't really change much, but it makes some early army setup choices more interesting since it may be more beneficial to have 20 ok units than 12 or 18 strong units.

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This would explain why I have not traditionally felt Shilo to be as hard as others have described. I have always gone with "# of units first, then fill" attitude, so this would benefit me a lot compared to someone who used a smaller number of units

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Precisely. I misunderstood panda. You'd be inclined to think that you'd get the 1st corps at Shiloh Church and the 2nd at Spanish Field, but it's a function of the split field before the Hornet's Nest stage that makes what is essentially the standard 1/2 wave feel and play oddly.

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Oh, and that reminds me... one of the mod features I love is the front-loading of the corps structure in Army Organization. Having the 4th corps essentially for free when I never use it for anything but battle optimization is a major benefit. Combined with the greater importance of Recon and some of the others, it all but ensures I'm putting at least a few points into Recon in every campaign. I always hated having to waste two points in Army Org just to have a strong 3rd corps and also be able to add/remove units from the other corps for optimal battle grouping.

Edit: I think I also found panda's "strong start" combination: Strategist/Artillery/Business

I was trying to make a build where I specifically ignored politics, emphasizing the mod improvements instead, and the extra mid-tier weapons combined with cost reductions and returned casualties is very powerful early on. Interestingly, it doesn't dominate as The Only Viable Build so you can still play how you wish, but it's definitely stronger through Shiloh for either side than anything I've yet tried.

Edited by killjoy1941
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I am getting ready to go to Malvern Hill on MG for CS (I started playing this campaign after the base game updated the other day)

What I've been doing:

Starting a few battles before, I have had 1200-1500 men 2 star brigades and then 3000 men and now 4000 men musket/42 1 star brigades

started with skirmisher cav and a unit of melee cav, but dropped the skirmisher cav

A few things I've noticed:

1. Skirmisher cav are much less useful, making their numbers big enough to actually hurt the morale of an infantry unit from the back or side is just way too expensive. 

2. Melee cav are God-like on any routing units. I have consistently been able to get melee cav units (500-700 men) up to 65 melee in one battle.

3. Artillery, while 200-300 men is the most efficient maybe they are really not having as big an impact at that size as I'm used to. (using 3-in-1, napolean, and small howitzers)

4. Those large infantry units are pretty much required as melee seems like it really is just a matter of numbers now and I'm often fleeing from charges

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3 minutes ago, madmatg said:

1. Skirmisher cav are much less useful, making their numbers big enough to actually hurt the morale of an infantry unit from the back or side is just way too expensive. 

Agreed, we're working on a solution to make them worthwhile.

4 minutes ago, madmatg said:

2. Melee cav are God-like on any routing units. I have consistently been able to get melee cav units (500-700 men) up to 65 melee in one battle.

Stat and thus experience gain is going to be reduced considerably across the board. Early melee cav weapons will be getting some small nerfs and later weapons getting some small buffs. Cavalry cleaning up routing units is intended, they are just a bit too effective at it currently.

6 minutes ago, madmatg said:

3. Artillery, while 200-300 men is the most efficient maybe they are really not having as big an impact at that size as I'm used to. (using 3-in-1, napolean, and small howitzers)

Artillery really take off with 2-3 star units and when the shot/shell perk and accuracy multipliers start stacking. They are probably a bit too weak early and a bit too strong late. With some exceptions.

8 minutes ago, madmatg said:

4. Those large infantry units are pretty much required as melee seems like it really is just a matter of numbers now and I'm often fleeing from charges

Unless you reduce the morale and stamina of the larger unit first, numbers will have a significant advantage. Drawing out the enemy charge duration and then counter charging can also help. You can definitely play without them but it requires careful management of the charges so you don't get caught in an unfavorable melee.

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