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43 minutes ago, admin said:

Now that we have given good time for new limited chain to settle. Lets have a final discussion on tuning. 

Do you like limited chain? Does it help you in combat
Do you like increased damage? Does it help or limits you in combat

When talking about repair and repair amount effects on limited chain
Keep in mind that weights of repairs will increase in next patch to correspond to HP weight repaired. Which will naturally limit them in battle without changing the mechanics. 

 

1: i like it, but it doesn't help in combat. 

you must consider chains within a system made from chain-reps-skill books.  atm, skillbooks are too OP: in a fight between a normal ship ( i mean with all 5 slots unlocked but without books like arte of ship handling and similar ''top books'') vs a ''top skillbooks'' ship is already unbalanced cause even the ''top'' ship gets slowed or chained to 60% , with 1 skill and 1 speed module will be always faster than the normal ship...undamaged.  without talking about a thickness and hp, cause with top skill books you can have a tank ship but fast more or like a fir/fir ship also.

chains are therefore the worst thing because they make the strong even stronger and the weak even weaker. 

solution: remove all top-skillbooks...a fir/fir ship must be the fastest one despite the mods of the other ships (a berm/berm ship have to be slower than a fir/fir...maybe with 10 slots all fitted for speed, a berm/berm can be fast as a fir/fir basic (without a single slot fitted for speed...if you want the speed, you must fir/fir, tanky teak/teak and so on...this will balance the game on player skill and not on magic-mods...as Potbs).

2: nope...if you still use the old reps.

atm, 4 shots (F-O-U-R) from and indef on a surpr at close range, bring the surpr at 70%....4 shots...imagine if the indef has 1 or 2 top-skillbooks on also (and it did)...what chance do you give to the player without the time to farm them? (i'm speaking of me for example...since the last wipe, i managed to build only 2 1st rates and still i don't have 1 single top-skill book...and like me, many others that ragequitted allready. BALANCE THA GAME PLS!!!!) ...no chance. ''top-skilledbooks players'' must figth each others, not going around bullying other simple players...introduce some kind of automatic ''level-restriction'' when a player mount a top-skillbook on his ship...so he cannot ruin the game of other players in a god-mode ship.

anyway, reps are too slow and too low compared to the speed at which damage to the sails is receive. solution : double the repaired hp  and halve the repair time (not cooldown of reps), and limit them to twice for each type of reps.

 

now you want to change the weight of reps...without solving the chains change first

 

i follow you and this game from sea trials and i cannot help but notice how you lost the BALANCE that was at the base of this game at the beginning.

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1 hour ago, admin said:

Now that we have given good time for new limited chain to settle. Lets have a final discussion on tuning. 

Do you like limited chain? Does it help you in combat
Do you like increased damage? Does it help or limits you in combat

When talking about repair and repair amount effects on limited chain
Keep in mind that weights of repairs will increase in next patch to correspond to HP weight repaired. Which will naturally limit them in battle without changing the mechanics. 

 

At long range is useless to chain, too little damage.

We will see if the change to repairs is good or not.

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Like it, please keep.

- it helps when used correctly, the fact that I don't get chain rained on me the entire fight makes the whole thing more interesting

- it limits me when I make a mistake (expected result)

Edited by Le Raf Boom

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On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 9:38 AM, Cecil Selous said:

 

 

giving a buff to battle sails sounds good, let's se how it will work

I would love if we make the whole sailing experience a bit more complex. Variable wind strength, simulated rigging (even dmg through chain) and the stresses on the masts due to the set canvas/destroyed rigging. In general an expanded manual management of the sails and trim to give an advantage to the better sailor who knows his ship and what in can endure. With ships that aren't always at their max performance at a given point of sail we wouldn't need those unrealistically high chain damage to compensate for the insane speeds of ships which constantly result in faster separation and distance. Of course this would need other adjustments too like cannon accuracy and a more difficult boarding initiation but I already lost the thread of the conversation. Pardon me.

This^^^

Battle sails should give bonus like less crew on sailing, sails take less damage because there are less set but also they require fewer lines to operate and most rigging damage that affected a ships maneuverability was to the rigging not as much putting holes in sails. While a ships top speed may be lower, in battle you want maneuverability, that's why they set certain sails in battle - tops'ls, jibs, spanker, stays'ls, maybe t'gallants in light wind.

 

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34 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

 

This^^^

Battle sails should give bonus like less crew on sailing, sails take less damage because there are less set but also they require fewer lines to operate and most rigging damage that affected a ships maneuverability was to the rigging not as much putting holes in sails. While a ships top speed may be lower, in battle you want maneuverability, that's why they set certain sails in battle - tops'ls, jibs, spanker, stays'ls, maybe t'gallants in light wind.

 

We need more reason for folks to use Battle sails, also think limiting repairs to only while in battle sails or lower would be a good way to keep folks from going full sails and doing sail repairs.  They would have to make sure they disengage and slow down to do the repairs.

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I really like limited chain, it makes people think instead of spamming and will reward good maneuvers (both offensive and defensive)

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I think the damage of chainshot at close range is overpowered. I like your Idea of buffing battlesails. Maybe this could solve the problem so let us test it. The main problem will be ganking. If you fight outnumberd, chainmeta is killing the lone hunting. Maybe it could be an idea to slow down gankingfleets to simulate the time for an admiral to give orders to the fleet. So when 2:1, reduce speed of the 2 by 0,1 kn, if 3:1, reduce speed of the 3 by 0,3 kn, if 4:1, reduce speed of the 4 by 0,6 kn and so on. This can simulate the relative higher effort of Communication (increasing ship by ship) in the larger group using signals for coordination.

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Just now, Sir Loorkon said:

I think the damage of chainshot at close range is overpowered. I like your Idea of buffing battlesails. Maybe this could solve the problem so let us test it. The main problem will be ganking. If you fight outnumberd, chainmeta is killing the lone hunting. Maybe it could be an idea to slow down gankingfleets to simulate the time for an admiral to give orders to the fleet. So when 2:1, reduce speed of the 2 by 0,1 kn, if 3:1, reduce speed of the 3 by 0,3 kn, if 4:1, reduce speed of the 4 by 0,6 kn and so on. This can simulate the relative higher effort of Communication (increasing ship by ship) in the larger group using signals for coordination.

Ganker crying becouse people team up and attack him.You do not want revenge fleets then stop hunting at capitals. Actually chain is too weak atm in reality having full sails and being chained would most likely broke the mast becouse of stress.

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20 hours ago, admin said:

Now that we have given good time for new limited chain to settle. Lets have a final discussion on tuning. 

Do you like limited chain? Does it help you in combat
Do you like increased damage? Does it help or limits you in combat

When talking about repair and repair amount effects on limited chain
Keep in mind that weights of repairs will increase in next patch to correspond to HP weight repaired. Which will naturally limit them in battle without changing the mechanics. 

 

On broadsides limited chain works great, it gives a new meaningful choice in battle, increasing tactical depth. 

There's an issue for front chasers. Being able to rigging shock an enemy from chasers in some cases is an issue - eg trinco fighting a surprise. Hachi described it well in a separate post. 

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@adminI know you're waiting for things to settle but chain cannot stay this strong. It is Crazy and keep one thing in mind. By forcing people to fight.... You make ganking easy and solo pvp almost impossible. We have lost more ships since chain patch than in the last 4 months before. We cannot solo pvp because everyone just chains and no matter the angle it does at least 10% damage. In a sense you did more harm than good. Your logic is flawed. You intended  to limit chain so people must conserve it and fire when they get most canvas area.  This is not the way it works in reality. If I am fighting 2 ships and both are bad players but atleast smart enough to chain once they are in range it will not matter how much area they hit. They will do 5% damage at least if they are really bad and in around 1 min do 20% or more. In reality it is far worse fighting outnumbered unless fighting monkeys. 

Yesterday we had a 4v15 outside MT in our bellonas. Sure we should have lost but again your intention is the total opposite. I was surrounded by 3 ships and sails went to 60 in around 1 minute. I repair sails and get no repair because there are 6 other ships keep on pounding my sails. Again GG WP. Total noobs just firing volley after volley..... It doesnt matter how good they hit because 10% or more than enough..... 

Even before the patch deployed I could see this coming. If I had only known the damage would be this crazy.... Very few solo players out there so the only pvp there ever was, was hunting hunters for me since I really hate seal clubbing. Now all they do is chain to death in 2 min and sink. GF!  Just reduce the damage and range to old levels and limit the chain to 4 chains per gun. Balancing should be done slow and not 0-100. 

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For me chain is to strong at close quarters and drop off from damage is to high at longer ranges.. and 2 shots per cannon is not enough.. it makes solo hunting extremely difficult & encourages gank squads.(  I think damage at close needs to drop by a small-medium percent and at distance just needs a tweak up by a small amount..So it does at least something to enable you to catch your enemy)

Wasa with 6 bow chasers at close to medium range can do more sail damage then a 5th rate can repair...

It's true that this does encourage fighting but harms the hit and run tactics used by pair or solo hunters. Imo 

Edited by Spitfire83

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Damage from up-close is way to high, it is easier to do than a decent rake and there is no defense against it. When they camp your stern, you're just dead in the water in no time, no matter how you manouver around (either sternchasers get you or the broadside does). It takes people out of the fight way too quickly (like the insta-demastperiod we had).

The limit only helps the groups, the sologuy gets crippled instantly and can now just give up and surrender (repairing sails is simply futile), there is absolutely no point in trying, and the 'gank'-side doesn't even need any skill to speak of to do high damage.

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As long as chain is limited then I think the damage up close is too strong, and the drop off too high. Make chain more accurate and more effective at range but lower it’s effectiveness at short range. In my opinion it was better before and I would remove the chain changes completely.

That said, if it remains limited but super effective, we must make sail, “rigging,” damage higher from ball shot at all distances. Accompany this with either the removal of laser aim for rear chasers or addition of laser aim for front chasers and the running, repair, rigging shock meta will be balanced a bit more.

Since we don’t actually model the sailing effects of damage to rigging, shrouds, and the crew managing sails I think that ball damage to sails should be higher. As a lone hunter the balance is way off it feels. If battle sails meant something (reduced sail and “rigging” damage from ball, etc.) then it would introduce another bit of play to the meta. 

Another thing to consider is that yard turn speed and increased crew requirements for full sails should go up as sail damage accrues (and I would argue that crew should be killed as yards would fall, reefers in the sails are lost and blocks fall on deck). However, the amount of sail force lost should be nerfed until sails are well and truly shot to shit. This would simulate the damage to rigging first which would not only be more historical but add in a different dimension that would favor running ships up to a point, but encourage proper wind management for solo hunting by allowing round shot to hobble tacking and turning.

Edited by Wraith

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I recommend tying demast chances to the amount of sail set. More sails = more stress on masts = even slight damage can bring them down. Battle sails = minimal stress = extreme damage required for masts to collapse. That would be better than giving battle sails potentially unrealistic bonuses in my opinion, i don't know how set in stone admin's plans for this are though.

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I will repeat what others have said as i have been able to see it more frequently in the past few days.

Damage is way too high at close range within 150meters, but at long ranges is way too low.

I feel the extremes on both sides should be shrunk a bit.

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Chain should just lose energy a lot quicker and retain a bit more damage till 2/3 of it's range. At the moment if flies as far as earlier but does no damage. Make it lose energy quick to represent more realistic ballistics and to aid us judge the distance of effective chain shot range better. I think damage is a bit too much, decreasing it by 10% may do the trick, availability is enough. Also we can increase time between repairs to make battles a bit more decisive. Adding 2 extra minutes between repairs maybe a good start.  

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Some more chain feedback:

Yesterday we had a fight in Bellonas. They outnumbered and outgunned us, so we expected some heavy chaining in the beginning and went battle sails. One Bellona then got chained by an Connie and still went into rigging shock, losing 23% sails. Sure, the angle was quite good, but how can anyone counter this? Just completely drop sails? And dont tell me to angle vs a superior number of ships, it doesnt work. I didnt end a fight with more than 70% sails since the chain changes and my ability to win vs larger numbers has dropped significantly (at the same time my ship loss rate increased significantly).

 

My proposal:

  • remove chain limitation
  • decrease damage, to old value +20%
  • the dmg dropoff really helped to reduce the downwind kiting, keep it as it is
  • increase the reload to +65% of ball (i think right now its around+25%?)
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54 minutes ago, Havelock said:

how can anyone counter this?

By staying in Port. Go to great battle results and look at the great battles we all have lately 

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1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

By staying in Port. Go to great battle results and look at the great battles we all have lately 

 

It was a rhetorical question   : |

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2 hours ago, Havelock said:

my ability to win vs larger numbers has dropped significantly (at the same time my ship loss rate increased significantly

While obviously painful to lose, dont these results make more sense?

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13 hours ago, Farrago said:

While obviously painful to lose, dont these results make more sense?

Its not loosing to many people that bothers him, it's how. Chain does so much damage that it does not matter what angle the enemy fires from. They will get sail damage anyway.  With the previous damage model chain might have been unlimited but since it's damage was lower it was more tactical because if you wasted broadsides you were giving up more dps. These changes do not make the game more hardcore. They make it frustrating. Poods and medium guns no longer have the disadvantages of range now compared to longs. Go back a read the posts I make. They are very detailed. What bothers me the most is that this thread seems to be dead. If devs or anyone disagree I always want to hear reasons. But so far no one has come up with a reason the current system is better/tactical. The devs always have let things settle down because we often overreact or are impulsive. I still believe everything I said was right and the same goes for masts too. 

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16 hours ago, Havelock said:

My proposal:

  • remove chain limitation
  • decrease damage, to old value +20%
  • the dmg dropoff really helped to reduce the downwind kiting, keep it as it is
  • increase the reload to +65% of ball (i think right now its around+25%?)

I still believe limiting it was a good choice. Increase the chains to 4 per gun and nerf damage and test. This is alpha right? 1 small tweak at a time. The range is still to low. Let's be honest. Both of us run trincs with mixed decks right now and we have no real disadvantage over longs. Btw in my experience downwind kiting is worse now. I have had many battles 2v1 were noobs kite me until I'm 45% sail. If I'm lucky the escape but if they are smart they sink. The distance needs a 25% buff at least and maybe more because chain ranges on sols is far to low. 

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30 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Go back a read the posts I make. They are very detailed. What bothers me the most is that this thread seems to be dead. If devs or anyone disagree I always want to hear reasons.

Your posts are indeed good, most of us see that. We often need quite a bit of patience. An extreme example is the upcoming crafting changes, that was discussed probably more than a year ago in now dead topics. Chain is currently on the table, so this is different, but they don't always have time for direct feedback or they're thinking or busy with other things or whatever.

Not all feedback is based on experience, yours is, I think they appreciate the difference.

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1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Your posts are indeed good, most of us see that. We often need quite a bit of patience. An extreme example is the upcoming crafting changes, that was discussed probably more than a year ago in now dead topics. Chain is currently on the table, so this is different, but they don't always have time for direct feedback or they're thinking or busy with other things or whatever.

Not all feedback is based on experience, yours is, I think they appreciate the difference.

Problem is that the combat system is the most important part of naval action. Nobody buys this game to craft. It's all about the battles being enjoyable. Who cares about chain being broken? 90% of the carebear community? I don't think so. 90% of the server group gank and personally I believe they don't have the experience to judge mechanics. You know the reason people like super tank ships and multiple reps? Because it's easier to farm ai fleets. I'm 100% sure of this. A combat system needs to be designed around player vs player 1 on 1. From there it balances itself out. I take players like Havelock, rediii, moscalb like, Liq and dron judgement very serious because they are very good duelists and solo hunt. Who else has the right to judge? A noob that carebears and ganks? Gankers won't complain about chain because unlike them I will critique something I benefit from. 

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18 hours ago, Havelock said:

Yesterday we had a fight in Bellonas. They outnumbered and outgunned us, so we expected some heavy chaining in the beginning and went battle sails. One Bellona then got chained by an Connie and still went into rigging shock, losing 23% sails. Sure, the angle was quite good, but how can anyone counter this? 

Since that Bellony was me I´d like to give my 2 cents of opinion.No matter what happens to the chain system (others have put more thoughts into it overall) I´d like to see a certain change happen. Therefore I´ll tell you a little story.

Let´s have a look at two different sailors, let´s call them Siggy Sailman and Carl Cannonman:

 

Carl Cannonman´s job is to aim the gun and load the gun. He is protected all around by other fleshy Humans and thick wooden boards. When the enemy cannons hit his deck there´s some bloodshed and broken wood but it´s as expected and the sand below his feet keep him standing and he continues to do his job. If things get too wild (reload shock) he might have some scary moments but will return to the fight immediately afterwards.

 

Siggy Sailman´s job is to work in the rigging he is climbing 50 feet above the deck and all that keep him there are some ropes and blocks. When the enemy cannons hit the rigging around him with chain its pure chaos. Many of his mateys fell into the water because some ropes got cut down and now he has to spot and replace the missing ropes so the ship can turn its yards again properly. (pretty much always a rigging shock)

 

 

What I am trying to say is. Rigging Shock should happen much more frequently but maybe sail damage should be reduced to whatever Havelock or Hachi suggested earlier. This way chain still retains its usefullness (along with a new tactical option, timing your chain broadside to make someone get stuck in a maneuver).

 

PS: Maybe add some minor crew damage when shooting at sails.

 

 

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