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Let's see how 400 players look in NA world

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1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:

You aren't going to incentivize pvp by tax alone. There's gotta be a reason for PVPers to venture out from safezone. There's no goal, no objective for OW pvp. Obviously they work because the patrol missions work but those aren't considered true OW pvp. There's nothing to do as an OW pvper

relevant video, yay hay where's the ow pvp content?

 

Why are  PVPers so obsessed with the safe zone? Does it hurt you that you cant ruin some noobs day? You have your pvp mission zones after all your crying about them why not use them? Oh that's right because the other people there are organised and not easy to kill. Lets ignore the pvp zones, too many good pvprs , lets just whine about the safe zones instead

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14 minutes ago, Fletch67 said:

Why are  PVPers so obsessed with the safe zone? Does it hurt you that you cant ruin some noobs day? You have your pvp mission zones after all your crying about them why not use them? Oh that's right because the other people there are organised and not easy to kill. Lets ignore the pvp zones, too many good pvprs , lets just whine about the safe zones instead

No one is whining about safezones ya dingus. We want ow pvp content to promote people venturing out of their capitals and give pvpers something to do other than ganking noobs at capital.

 There is no objective to ow pvp, yes we have the patrols but those are so basic and hold no value to ow.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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How to get people to leave the capitals - - 

1 crafting in player owned ports produces purple / gold ships.  Ships produced in capital regions should be blue and ONLY 3/5

2 labor hour reductions built into the ports

3 regional trims.  This was the biggest success of the fine woods patch I think.  

4 lower the cost of the shipyard levels so people can have multiples in various ports.  In particular lower the amount of stone and fittings.

5 incentivize leaving safe zones by placing missions outside them.  Missions taken in player owned ports net more cash AND better rewards.

6 increase the production/consumption of various player owned ports to promote trading.  Quite frankly trading needs to be buffed and mission gold reduced to increase that style of play

7 Player owned ports need to matter again.  

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Yes let's tax all the players that don't want to do PvP to buggery. That'll make them love the game and sail more to get attacked and sunk by PvP green zone sneekers won't it 

Lets put a tax on ship building so that people that don't want to do PvP but craft instead are taxed so that they are restricted from building ships, making ships so expensive the carebears don't want to buy or sail them or do RvR.

Let's make the missions more and more difficult to obtain in safe zones and discourage people from playing. 

I am so positive about these wonderful notions.

Buster (wht could possibly go wrong)

 

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38 minutes ago, Molder169 said:

The game lacks content in general. Your 4 choices are pvp, pvp or pvp with the option to trade.

Clearly by the numbers of last nights patch the content delivered in way of training was legitimately eaten up. Content is content regardless of it's category.

ow pvp has no supporting mechanics to it. You're expected to fill in all the gaps which shows signs of lack of development. PVE with it's basic mission system is still many times more complex than PVP mission system. (hint: pvp has no missions system, we have old pvp zones disguised as missions)

Edited by Slim McSauce
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24 minutes ago, Fletch67 said:

Why are  PVPers so obsessed with the safe zone? Does it hurt you that you cant ruin some noobs day? You have your pvp mission zones after all your crying about them why not use them? Oh that's right because the other people there are organised and not easy to kill. Lets ignore the pvp zones, too many good pvprs , lets just whine about the safe zones instead

they are not obsessed, they simply try to maximize the PVP marks income.

A lot of people here on the forums talks boldly about old times when there were no PVP zones, but forget to add that in those times there were also

- no PVP marks as reward for killing players;

- ships had multiple duras

- no knowledge books with magic powers

So the good old time PVPers were interested in actual fights against other players (or in taking ships or cargoes), not in trying to get the more kills they could in the shortest time to sell the marks to get the gold to buy the upgrades for they one dura (then very precious) uberfitted ships.

There was a balance in the thing: a balance that did make safe zones unnecessary.

A lot of things have changed, and each of this changes has shifted the PVP towards the gank side.

For this reason green zones have been created.

With the last patch safe zones have been nerfed big time, but all the previous system (PVP marks and so on) was not touched. So the absence of green zones NOW it would not be the same thing as the absence of green zones that we had before.

 

Edited by victor
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1 minute ago, victor said:

they are not obsessed, they simply try to maximize the PVP marks income.

A lot of people here on the forums talks boldly about old times when there were no PVP zones, but forget to add that in those times there were also

- no PVP marks as reward for killing players;

- ships had multiple duras

- no knowledge books with magic powers

So the good old time PVPers were interested in actual fights against other players (or in taking ships or cargoes), not in trying to get the more kills they could in the shortest time to sell the marks to get the gold to buy the upgrades for they one dura (then very precious) uberfitted ships.

There was a balance in the thing: a balance that did make safe zones unnecessary.

A lot of things have changed, and each of this changes has shited the PVP towards the gank side.

For this reason green zones have been created.

With the last patch safe zones have been nerfed big time, but all the previous system (PVP marks and so on) was not touched. So the absence of green zones NOW is not comparable to absence of green zones that we had before.

 

The insistence for "free market pvp" where the game doesn't support the flow of pvp is why the game is so gank v ganker.

What reason do I have to pvp in the gulf? There's no reason to go there. No mechanic incentivizes traveling to take areas of the map as an ow pvper.

So guess what, you get everyone going to capitals because at least you'll find pvp there.

that's what happens when you don't take control.

 

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37 minutes ago, Suricato Rojo said:

Im a solo hunter with 5500+ hours and I can say both maps are wrong. Second one a bit less wrong than the first but wrong as well.
Right now... there is only activity in capitals, in the free town near the patrol zone, and in a bunch of sanctuaries were some clans think is safe to do some missions and fleets and trading.

For instance: If patrol zone is near aves... Tumbado is empty.

Free Towns used to be trading hubs. Right now traders try to avoid Free town as much as posiible.

 

You don't get the point. Map Accuracy has nothing to do here. I just represent the general idea of what is happening now. 

Edited by Project Pluto

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Honestly, from my point of view PvP Marks are biggest stupidity of this game.
I can kinda understand what was the idea behind them, but it missed the goal. Missed it wide.

If they are a reward for some PvP actions, why they are actually best awarded for everything which is NOT REALLY a PvP? 

You call hunting the traders a PvP?
You call 6v1 gank a PvP?


If only the PvP marks were somehow adjusted based on the strength difference between the fleets...

Your fleet is more then 50% weaker? Double the PvP marks.
Your fleet is weaker by less then 50%? Extra bonus for PvP marks.

Your fleet is twice as big as the enemy? Reduce the amount of PvP marks to 25% only
Your fleet is more than twice as big then Your enemy? Reduce the amount of given PvP marks to 10%

If the 4v1 gank would give 10 times less PvP marks, then a 4v4, or traders wouldn't be giving PvP marks, multiple problems would disappear straight away.
No one would bother about such stupid ganking, if there would be no benefits from it.

No risk? No reward.
No effort? No reward.


EDIT: And most of all - the system when winner gets 100% while looser gets 0, is also bad. The loosing side should always get some rewards.

Edited by O. J. Kosznicki
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48 minutes ago, O. J. Kosznicki said:

Honestly, from my point of view PvP Marks are biggest stupidity of this game.
I can kinda understand what was the idea behind them, but it missed the goal. Missed it wide.

If they are a reward for some PvP actions, why they are actually best awarded for everything which is NOT REALLY a PvP? 

You call hunting the traders a PvP?
You call 6v1 gank a PvP?


If only the PvP marks were somehow adjusted based on the strength difference between the fleets...

Your fleet is more then 50% weaker? Double the PvP marks.
Your fleet is weaker by less then 50%? Extra bonus for PvP marks.

Your fleet is twice as big as the enemy? Reduce the amount of PvP marks to 25% only
Your fleet is more than twice as big then Your enemy? Reduce the amount of given PvP marks to 10%

If the 4v1 gank would give 10 times less PvP marks, then a 4v4, or traders wouldn't be giving PvP marks, multiple problems would disappear straight away.
No one would bother about such stupid ganking, if there would be no benefits from it.

No risk? No reward.
No effort? No reward.


EDIT: And most of all - the system when winner gets 100% while looser gets 0, is also bad. The loosing side should always get some rewards.

You say there should be "no risk/no reward"...  But that is exactly what you are saying when you say that hunting traders  isnt "a PvP"....   Why should traders have no risk?  They are certainly reaping the rewards.

I'll let you in on a little secret as to why myself and most others hunt traders from time to time...  Its so that we DONT HAVE TO DO TRADE RUNS OURSELVES....

Why should I spend time and money tracking down stuff when I can just take it...

And despite everyone bitching about it, its actually the MOST AUTHENTIC feature in this game...

Look up the term "Privateer"

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9 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

You say there should be "no risk/no reward"...  But that is exactly what you are saying when you say that hunting traders  isnt "a PvP"....   Why should traders have no risk?  They are certainly reaping the rewards.

I'll let you in on a little secret as to why myself and most others hunt traders from time to time...  Its so that we DONT HAVE TO DO TRADE RUNS OURSELVES....

Why should I spend time and money tracking down stuff when I can just take it...

And despite everyone bitching about it, its actually the MOST AUTHENTIC feature in this game...

Look up the term "Privateer"

Except that this game forces you to either sink those traders and take a fraction of what they carry for PVP marks OR keep them and get nothing but the loot.  An asinine decision to have to make honestly.  You NEED pvp marks to get certain ships, books and upgrades.  But you also want to make privateering feel satisfying.  

Just one of the reasons I absolutely cannot stand the PVP mark system.  I hate having to sink perfectly good ships for marks and/or to split them with a group.  The reward should always be the prize itself.

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3 hours ago, admin said:

Is there a poll on this
Because Capital Stamp Tax and Capital shipbuilding tax is in the good to have development list for like 6 months

This is exactly the kind of incentive to get people out of safe zones we need. If you make it impossible or reduce the production capacity (or increase production cost/labor hours) for buildings inside the safe zone that would be useful as well.  People should be able to make due in safe zones, especially when starting out, but with increasing risk should come increasing rewards.

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8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This is exactly the kind of incentive to get people out of safe zones we need. If you make it impossible or reduce the production capacity (or increase production cost/labor hours) for buildings inside the safe zone that would be useful as well.  People should be able to make due in safe zones, especially when starting out, but with increasing risk should come increasing rewards.

I keep saying: if you have to deal with a tired horse - which is the naval action average non PVP focused player - bait him with a carrot and do not beat it once more with stick.

So it's ok to make crafting outside safe zones more rewarding, but nerfing the crafting in safe zones RIGHT AFTER nerfing safe zones and making missions more dangerous would not be a smart move. 

Edited by victor

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14 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Except that this game forces you to either sink those traders and take a fraction of what they carry for PVP marks OR keep them and get nothing but the loot.  An asinine decision to have to make honestly.  You NEED pvp marks to get certain ships, books and upgrades.  But you also want to make privateering feel satisfying.  

Just one of the reasons I absolutely cannot stand the PVP mark system.  I hate having to sink perfectly good ships for marks and/or to split them with a group.  The reward should always be the prize itself.

I do not disagree with any of that...  The fact of the matter is that we all realize that this game is a HUGE time commitment.  It definitely takes quite a while to get to the point where you can choose which playstyle you want to do that day/game session.

The bigger question is:  Is that good or bad?

I guess it depends on the player.  Some are driven by the goal and some are driven away by the hassle.

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1 minute ago, victor said:

I keep saying: if you have to deal with a tired horse - which is the naval action average non PVP focused player - bait him with a carrot and do not beat it once more with stick.

So it's ok make crafting outside safe zones more rewarding, but nerfing the crafting in safe zones RIGHT AFTER nerfing safe zones and making missions more dangerous would not be a smart move. 

Well, I've got a lot of issues with the RoE in safe zones, and fundamentally agree with you. But like all successful MMOs there should be incentives (carrots) to reward riskier game mechanics. Scaling up efficiencies outside the zone, or scaling down efficiencies inside the zone accomplish the same thing.  

But honestly, I think the safe zones should be tiered.  Capital counties are no-PvP zones with extremely high taxes and labor costs.  Neighboring counties are open to PvP but players can't lose or capture ships, only the things they carry like mods, cannons, hold items (e.g. insurance zone). Then outside this is the red zone, where any clan can attack any other clan, regardless of nation, etc.  Basically it's free for all, full loot, clan-based warfare where all that matters is which clans (again, regardless of nation) are on your clan's friendly list.

Incentivize moving outside these tiered safer zones by increased gold/xp/trade goods and production management options.

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6 minutes ago, Wraith said:

But honestly, I think the safe zones should be tiered. 

Well seems to me like an old topic, since safe zones - as a matter of facts - are now nolonger really that safe.

Edited by victor

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Just now, victor said:

Well seems to me like an old topic, since safe zones - as a matter of facts - are now no longer really that safe.

devs never called them "safe zone" - just reinforcment zone

safe zone was players invention.

they are still reinforcment zones, as battles are still open for the whole time, and you get ai support.

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1 minute ago, Liq said:

devs never called them "safe zone" - just reinforcment zone

safe zone was players invention.

they are still reinforcment zones, as battles are still open for the whole time, and you get ai support.

We needed so much this semantic precisation mate. So please note also BTW that there is also no PVP server. 

Edited by victor

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Just now, victor said:

Well seems to me like an old topic, since safe zones - as a matter of facts - are now nolonger really that safe.

Exactly my point.. I feel like the safe zones are just honey traps for new players with completely opaque RoE that leave them open for ganking.  The new reinforcements are a joke, the fact that tagging AI in a safe zone leave an always-open battle while it doesn't just over some magical line is silly.. What new players need is true safety and room to play and experiment.  Once they get the mechanics down then they'll want to venture out to get more rewards. But those rules and RoE they find should be a nested set of predictable, understandable mechanics that are clearly communicated by tutorial and UI.

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I don't really get the safe zones hate.  The only reason players are currently trying to hunt in them is because the game population is so small that capitals are the only place to find players these days.  They're aren't really out there trading because it's not all that lucrative.  They're aren't out there hauling around shipbuilding supplies because the game allows players to do just about everything in the zones.  They aren't crafting out of player owned ports because they cost so much these days and not many of them are worth setting up shop in.  

We keep trying to adjust the game to work for the current situation in game, a VERY small player base....rather than tackling the reasons why we have such a small player base to begin.  

So the solution is simple:

Get more players back into the game
- more casual level content.  stuff that doesn't require 3 hours to do.  Missions.  Randomized events.  Player created escort runs.
- more variety
- more involved and detailed crafting and economy (aka something I can't do with just 1 alt)

Incentivize those players to leave the capital areas
- promote crafting outside of the capitals through taxes, increased chances of getting purp/gold ships....or dare I say  CRAFTING REGIONS?
- enhance the safe zones around the capitals.  1 ring protects everyone and another protects only traders (or something like that)
- increase pay out of missions taken outside of capitals
- increase trading pay output
- Remove PVP marks as a currency.

Fix these 2 things and PVP will magically fix itself.

 

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my clanies talked to me and I agree here:

 

don't punish people in the safezone. Rather start with creating more consumer ports and make the capital don't consume something anymore

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1 hour ago, victor said:

We needed so much this semantic precisation mate. So please note also BTW that there is also no PVP server. 

Wait, so what is it? We have PvE server and.... _______???

image.thumb.png.85185ca5cc983bb82cbe041f266b9b0e.png

Edited by Banished Privateer

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5 minutes ago, Cornelius Trash said:

I think many would rather stop playing than be "forced" to risk pvp when they don't feel like doing pvp.

If you dont want risk then PVE awaits you

 

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3 hours ago, Suricato Rojo said:

Right now traders try to avoid Free town as much as posiible.

Why shouldn't they, when there is no reason for them to be there other than selling repairs for small profit? They are better off trading somewhere quiet and safer. 

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