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Boarding + 'Determined Defender' suggestion


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3 hours ago, Hethwill said:

In truth the crew conducting the boarding didn't have to beat the bigger numbers entirely, just defeat the weather deck and castles :). There's no way the other ship going to sail without a place from where to control the rigs ;), hence it is defeated and out of battle.

Say a 1st rate has 1200 crew. 900 might be in the gun decks, rest 300 up top ready for action and handling rigging. Those would fight a boarding action, not 1200.

 

I take it you never serverd in the military?

3 hours ago, Oberon74 said:

Yes, those 900 down below are continuing to pound broadsides into the opponent.  If there is no target, they're coming up

Even the office guys learned how to shoot guns and man stations when I was in the military (navy).  We had an old saying if there was a fire on board the ship, "80% of engineering would prob be killed in the flash fire if something happen down there.  It's the rest of the ships job than to put out the fire."   This is why some of us not in that department but had stations close drilled along with them to be ready if the worse happens.  Same with other departments.  You don't just sit below deck while your crew mates all get killed above, if you can send guys up to make the advantage in the defense you send the guys up.  Not to mention prob not even shooting half those guns any more once your in boarding action so why keep crew on them?

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5 hours ago, Hethwill said:

:) you sure ? Gun crews kept unleashing volleys, espeically true in ships with 1 or more gun decks ( which we do not have during boarding action... sad...). Once you get the weather decks and castles the 900 guys will be funneled in stairs, and slaghtered while coming up. No sir, not gonna work, they better keep firing until the colors are struck. RN proved this worked very well and Marines were posted to defend the stairs so no boarders could go down to struck the gun crews - they were precious.

Is DD correctly simulating this by mandatory 30% more crew ?!...

That's what we are discussing :) 

 

This is how I see it.

 

my issue is that DD is currently the ony defense against all boarding meta to come back. The boarding in the game at this time is mostly gear based.

Book of 5 rings + marines = ez win much skill. And let's not get started about ping and last millisecond clicking. Because that is just retareded.

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2 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I kinda think it's funny I notice a lot of comments about the easy rage boarders are folks I never seen PvP or on the leader board or doing RvR.   Yes some one can quickly push you into wind and rage board you, but if you fall for that than more than likely your a nob in the first place and they would prob out gun you in a fight if you don't spend it all running.   In an actuall PvP/RvR fight it's way more than that and not very easy to get some one turned, slowed down and boarded.  99% of the boards I done in Port Battles was cause some one turned into irons and got stuck and I said hell, screw it and started my board prep and pulled them while they where still stuck in irons.  They had zero prep and more crew than me but I beat them cause most folks don't have a clue how to play the rock paper scissors game either and they just mash buttons.  Than they complained we raged boarded them and it was unfair.

 

I liked it being tied to board prep, cause how are you going to push away that board attempt if your not ready and maybe a cool down would be good like the one they have to keep folks from doing chain boards.

not to mention going in for the board puts your ship at risk and maximum exposure to cannons.  It can be far riskier trying to board a ship than just outright sinking.  

But yea most of the naysayers on here don't actually play.

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11 minutes ago, Christendom said:

not to mention going in for the board puts your ship at risk and maximum exposure to cannons.  It can be far riskier trying to board a ship than just outright sinking.  

But yea most of the naysayers on here don't actually play.

Yep as a few folks have found out recently with my anti board set up.  Let them pull you while you have high prep up.  Hold them and defend while team mates rip through there hull and structure.  Use boarding axe's to disengage and watch them instantly sink.  Worked in the port battle last weekend when I let the prince pull my mortar brig prob thinking it was an easy kill.   

Not often i get a PvP marks with a mortar brig unless it's deep water PB with 1st rates in it lol

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6 hours ago, Farrago said:

Obviously boarding needs a whole new process, but in the meantime...

The value of Determined Defender is it puts the brakes on the instant rage boarding which is also IMO not realistic. It seems to be a tactic for those who have trouble winning a sailing/gunnery battle but they've got that whole clicky thing down. Perhaps the percentage requirement is too high but I don't think it is: 30% more crew is not a very high bar. Kill some crew while preserving your own... then you can board.

For those thinking it is too high or want it removed, I'd like to hear examples of numbers scenarios between combat ships that they think don't make sense. 

I have numerous examples of 30% being too much but do not have the time or energy to explain when solid arguements have already been made. 

I think the morale of the story is: if you are not PREPARED to fend off a boarding attempt then you shouldn't be able to deny boarding.

Also I'm curious as to what this obvious whole new boarding process would be? I think a few tweaks are needed, but a mini game is about the best we get without actually having avatars with swords and pistols. 

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11 hours ago, rediii said:

its not. For a very small part yes but not as much as you think.

You try having around 280-300 ping and see how you feel about that (not trying to be a dick) but its a huge disadvantage when that last second click makes the difference, 

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 let’s just calm down here, I understand the frustration with DD,

 

but it at the same time you have to select to run boarding parties on your warship correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t all warships have specialist boarders already on the ship some more then others?

also if you’re runing boarding spec not only should you reload slower but have less accuracy on your guns as your crew is dedicated to boarding not shooting cannon balls?

 

im sorry but you can’t have your cake and eat it here I’m fine drop DD or lower it’s percentage fine but those who board ships which I see as a very Valid tactic in game have to lose there accuracy on there cannons they already have lower reload that way it becomes a skill not an easy win 

Edited by Rebrall
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18 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Marines?

People just miss to rageboard and use their book of the five rings+complete fencing masters+... to win a fight in 10 mins.

Rip I phone for the win 😑

completely changed the words now*

Edited by Rebrall
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20 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Marines?

People just miss to rageboard and use their book of the five rings+complete fencing masters+... to win a fight in 10 mins.

I’m fine with being a specialist boarder that’s fine but at the cost of reload speed and accuracy of there cannons.

 

every advantage in one direction has to come with its trade offs such as being better on your cannons should weaken your boarding capabilities and vice versa 

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12 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I kinda think it's funny I notice a lot of comments about the easy rage boarders are folks I never seen PvP or on the leader board or doing RvR.   Yes some one can quickly push you into wind and rage board you, but if you fall for that than more than likely your a nob in the first place and they would prob out gun you in a fight if you don't spend it all running.

I know we always bring it to the conversation, but there multiple historical examples where determined crews resisted the boarding from much larger ships for hours, even after losing half of the crew. Redoutable was never boarded, despite having 50% less crew. 

Determined defender is not cheap. You spend your important skill points.
Every extreme strategy should have a counter (ability to just push you into the wind, board and win due to full boarding setup should have a counter) and DD is a perfect counter. 
DD forces the rage boarder to actually spend some time raking the target preparing it for boarding instead of just pushing it into the wind (due to the fact that water does not resist much; thats how tankers are moved by small tugboats).  

Suggestion to base it on morale level is interesting, but one can argue that in many cases morale can go up in dire situations (ww2, civil war, and many other cases). 

One idea to balance the DD and rage boarding is to add increased crew loss to all boarding mods and DD (due to the fact that majority of crew is on deck).But this again needs to be balanced to not completely ruin those mods; and balance is hard (you all know) 
 

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28 minutes ago, admin said:

Determined defender is not cheap. You spend your important skill points.

 

Thats exactly the point, there are not enough important captain skills. My current setup (which i didnt change for months):

  • Expert Carpenter (4)
  • Determined Defender (2)
  • Double Ball (1)
  • Double Charge (1)
  • Hold Optimazation (1)

I even have 1 point spare! Rigging Specialist is out of meta, not worth 2 points. The only other skill which can be worth taking is Fleet Perk (1), but that i would switch out with Hold Opt or Double Charge.

I agree that nerfing DD to 10% would help the boarding game. But still everyone would use it, because the actual problem is that perks overall need a serious rework!

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3 minutes ago, Havelock said:

 

 

I agree that nerfing DD to 10% would help the boarding game. But still everyone would use it, because the actual problem is that perks overall need a serious rework!

Separate post with proposals?

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I also agree that DD should be set to approx 10-15%.

Since you also don't see if someone has a defender, you don't even have to have a perk to change enemy tactic. Boarding setups are now just useless.

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12 minutes ago, admin said:

Separate post with proposals?

 

I did a small suggestion for a few quick fixes in the old "Pre-patch quick number changes suggestions" thread some time ago, so heres the copy pasta:

- perk rebalance (right now theres almost no diversity): double charge/ball: 2 points, defense drill: add -1 round disengage, pump inventor: increase to 30% (last resort), area control: 1 point, reduce to 300m, carronade master: change to -3m dispersion every direction, determined defender: change to 10% crew, fisher: add increased chance to find bottles and reduce to 1 point, shipyard connections: change to increase chance to build rare ships +15%, hold optimization: should work on trading ships only (its used to buff warship speed atm which is not intended) (we need more perks and 3 captain slots btw, but this is for a future update)

 

A real overhaul would need new perks and all of course, but these small changes would already help imho.

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I also want to bet that all asking for DD nerf have the book of 5 rings already...

Stop making people play your way and let others play their way!

Boarding meta is boring and requires no skill.

Edited by Cornelius Trash
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9 minutes ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Decrease from 30% to 15-20% and require boarding prep to be above 50.

It's basically a get out of jail free card now with no risk. At least you have the risk of a slower reload rate if you're gonna be a wuss.

Agree - but you could also make determined defender more dynamic.

eg.: let it trigger at 50/100 prep and let each point after 50 count towards the percentage.

So at 65/100 It would require 15% more, and at 100/100 you'd need 50% more crew.

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27 minutes ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Boarding books are fine, people can get the books fine and if they're smart then they can still win even without them. Just attacking a defend is the problem folks have!

Add ping and a shitty minigame to that and the shit sandwich that is boarding is complete.

Edited by Cornelius Trash
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10 minutes ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Boarding books are fine, people can get the books fine and if they're smart then they can still win even without them. Just attacking a defend is the problem folks have!

Good luck winning against player with book of five rings witch is nearly impossible to get

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