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Percival Merewether

Boarding + 'Determined Defender' suggestion

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Just now, Slim McSauce said:

it doesn't need to go that far, we don't even have proper grappling in game yet. It's immediate and there's no counter to being pulled, no way to cut the ropes or push off the ship

A friend can push the ship away :( ... it feels horrible.

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4 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

A friend can push the ship away :( ... it feels horrible.

yet you cant cut the invisible rope yourself, or do anything to delay the insta-board. Boarding is the poo stain on the clean white undies of NA combat

Edited by Slim McSauce

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Determined defender has it's place in game, but it should be morale based, not only crew based. 

 

If you stern rake a SOL and kill 100-200 crew thats blood guts and gore everywhere, Also if you get the sides down on a ship and the middle health bar is 1/2 way down, again...there's carnage and damage that should make morale go down significantly........ it doesnt matter the # of crew at that point, but the morale should be low and the ship should be boardable. 

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24 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

boarding is lame, chain to 60% ram a bit ahead and grapple. Ez win with little effort or skill.

In reality if you were to shred a the rigging/spars/masts to 60% of what they were the ship would have little more than steerage way and be at the mercy of the aggressor ship performing a dreaded stern rake or two.  See the Constitution vs the Java fight.  Most captains would face the inevitable if their ships were demasted or horribly mauled and strike the colors to preserve the crew. 

I fail to see how demasting or chaining a ship down to 50/60% of its sails and boarding is any different really.  

DD should only work once.  If you're still in a position to be boarded after the first time and the 90second grapple CD you should be fair game.

Edited by Christendom
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In my own opinion, if you have determined defender, boarding preparation should effect how determined your crew is. If you have 0 prep, then determined defender should not work. If your not prepared to push laters and repel ropes, then you simply can’t be determined enough to defend. 30% is fine if this is added. 50% prep for 15% determined defender, 100% for 30% defender. I think if your crew is not told to prepare for boarding, then you should not be prepared to push a latter off with a simple perk. 

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2 minutes ago, Christendom said:

In reality if you were to shred a the rigging/spars/masts to 60% of what they were the ship would have little more than steerage way and be at the mercy of the aggressor ship performing a dreaded stern rake or two.  Most captains would face the inevitable if their ships were demasted or horribly mauled and strike the colors to preserve the crew. 

I fail to see how demasting or chaining a ship down to 50/60% of its sails and boarding is any different really.  

DD should only work once.  If you're still in a position to be boarded after the first time and the 90second grapple CD you should be fair game.

It isn't different, but it doesn't change the fact that boarding is the outlier in terms of realism, practicality and overall making sense in a broad sense of the term.

Boarding is the OW equivalent of the battle instance. It's painfully underdeveloped.

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5 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

It isn't different, but it doesn't change the fact that boarding is the outlier in terms of realism, practicality and overall making sense in a broad sense of the term.

Boarding is the OW equivalent of the battle instance. It's painfully underdeveloped.

The act of chaining/disabling a ship and boarding is perhaps the most historically accurate aspect of the combat in this game.  The boarding mini-game needs work but I actually kinda like it.  Majority of the ships historically were taken by boarding or disabled enough to the fact that the captains surrendered.  Unlike NA the price was always in the other ship and it's contents, not imaginary marks.  It was in fact very difficult to actually sink a ship.  

 

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4 minutes ago, Christendom said:

The act of chaining/disabling a ship and boarding is perhaps the most historically accurate aspect of the combat in this game.  The boarding mini-game needs work but I actually kinda like it.  Majority of the ships historically were taken by boarding or disabled enough to the fact that the captains surrendered.  Unlike NA the price was always in the other ship and it's contents, not imaginary marks.  It was in fact very difficult to actually sink a ship.  

The act of boarding itself isn't realistic nor does it make practical sense. Boarding actions start when the first grapple is thrown, the defenders are able to cut the ropes with axes and beat back the attempts to lock the ships together before even being pulled. In this game it's instant pull and board and doesn't at all reflect how it was done.

Even though it's such a huge part of what age of sail was, it's simplified to absurdity. Literally one button to immediate affect, not even a minigame or something.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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1 minute ago, Slim McSauce said:

The act of boarding itself isn't realistic nor does it make practical sense. Boarding actions start when the first grapple is thrown, the defenders are able to cut the ropes with axes and beat back the attempts to lock the ships together before even being pulled. In this game it's instant pull and board and doesn't at all reflect how it was done.

It's not like you just sail up and board.  You need to slow the ship/disable and get it below a certain speed and/or push it into the wind.  A good captain can get out of it a few times.  

Most people who do not understand the process of boarding think it's far too easy. 

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4 minutes ago, Christendom said:

It's not like you just sail up and board.  You need to slow the ship/disable and get it below a certain speed and/or push it into the wind.  A good captain can get out of it a few times.  

Most people who do not understand the process of boarding think it's far too easy. 

and it's not like you just magnetically pull a ship towards you. You need to throw 1, 2, 3, multiple grapples before being able to even pull a ship of that size let alone lock it to your side to where it can't escape by simply dropping sails and pulling you with it while your planks and ladders fall away to the ocean.

"the process of boarding" LOL.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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Determined defender should act as if the first grapple lines were cut. If the ship is still in the position to be boarded a 2nd time after 90 secs it should be open to being boarded.  

Easy solution.  DD saves you once, but it’s not the ridiculous guarantee it is now.  

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3 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Determined defender should act as if the first grapple lines were cut. If the ship is still in the position to be boarded a 2nd time after 90 secs it should be open to being boarded.  

Easy solution.  DD saves you once, but it’s not the ridiculous guarantee it is now.  

lol that you need a perk to cut a single grapple. Boarding is fucked, just admit it. Perks are a lazy solution to what should be a dynamic part of the game. Moral, Crew amount, and the actual act of initiating a boarding that decides the success of a boarding action needs to exists for boarding not to be crappy.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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Do we really want to see the same bullshit happening again?

Chain the enemy, push him against wind and board. You can do this in 10 mins. Great battle. GG.

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7 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

lol that you need a perk to cut a single grapple. Boarding is fucked, just admit it. Perks are a lazy solution to what should be a dynamic part of the game.

We have far bigger fish to fry than fixing one small aspect of combat.  Hence the fix to perks. Quick and easy to code.  Revamping boarding is not.  I would prefer imperfect balancing to none.  

Anyway the collective opinion is against DD just like it was the first time it was introduced.  Not sure why it was brought back.  No one requested it.  No one who actually plays anyway.  

Edited by Christendom
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15 minutes ago, Christendom said:

We have far bigger fish to fry than fixing one small aspect of combat.  Hence the fix to perks. Quick and easy to code.  Revamping boarding is not.  I would prefer imperfect balancing to none.  

Anyway the collective opinion is against DD just like it was the first time it was introduced.  Not sure why it was brought back.  No one requested it.  No one who actually plays anyway.  

Once UI and tutorial and whatever big is being worked on right now is done, there really is no excuse for these quick half-ass features. It's been a while since we've had a good existential crisis for this game where everyone's wondering whether it'll survive or not. We'll know pretty soon when we see how able the devs are at creating full thought out, dynamic systems for the game.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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11 minutes ago, Christendom said:

We have far bigger fish to fry than fixing one small aspect of combat.  Hence the fix to perks. Quick and easy to code.  Revamping boarding is not.  I would prefer imperfect balancing to none.  

Anyway the collective opinion is against DD just like it was the first time it was introduced.  Not sure why it was brought back.  No one requested it.  No one who actually plays anyway.  

It looks like the collective opinion of the small minority who post on this forum is split.  Most players (and all of the players who have been boarded by the pros) might be very happy with DD.

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DD itself is not a bad idea, represents some pretty hardcore crew that will sell dearly their ship and even beat off enemy assaults a few times. Does the "enemy must have 30% more crew" represents this ? Or can we change it ? Would bonus to Defense be better ? Maybe Disengage + Defense bonus, like a mix of Axes and Expert Defender ?

 

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36 minutes ago, Christendom said:

The act of chaining/disabling a ship and boarding is perhaps the most historically accurate aspect of the combat in this game.  The boarding mini-game needs work but I actually kinda like it.  Majority of the ships historically were taken by boarding or disabled enough to the fact that the captains surrendered.  Unlike NA the price was always in the other ship and it's contents, not imaginary marks.  It was in fact very difficult to actually sink a ship.  

 

This may be true historically but as you say yourself the ships were chained and disabled which would indicate a lot of damage and most probably quite a few casualties so morale would have been low. I would like to know how many ships historically were boarded by another ship early on in a battle with only a few shots fired and the larger crewed ships company fully intact, I dont think it would have been many. Morale has to play a big part in affecting DD otherwise we will be back to the old boarding meta and ships being boarded and captured with hardly a shot being fired.

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21 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

lol that you need a perk to cut a single grapple. Boarding is fucked, just admit it. Perks are a lazy solution to what should be a dynamic part of the game. Moral, Crew amount, and the actual act of initiating a boarding that decides the success of a boarding action needs to exists for boarding not to be crappy.

 

10 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

there really is no excuse for these quick half-ass features. It's been a while since we've had a good existential crisis for this game where everyone's wondering whether this game will survive or not. We'll know pretty soon when we see how able the devs are at creating full thought out, complex systems for the game.

Lol

admin: "What do you guys think of this one specific thing?"

Slim: "We need a million billion other things! While I'm at it; The game sucks and unless you fulfill all my wildest dreams it's going to die... No, this is on point, can't you see that? Lol"

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1 minute ago, Archaos said:

This may be true historically but as you say yourself the ships were chained and disabled which would indicate a lot of damage and most probably quite a few casualties so morale would have been low. I would like to know how many ships historically were boarded by another ship early on in a battle with only a few shots fired and the larger crewed ships company fully intact, I dont think it would have been many. Morale has to play a big part in affecting DD otherwise we will be back to the old boarding meta and ships being boarded and captured with hardly a shot being fired.

I don't have numbers, but I can say for sure that a Victory size warship was never taken by a Prince

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1 minute ago, Oberon74 said:

I don't have numbers, but I can say for sure that a Victory size warship was never taken by a Prince

If you lose a victory to a prince then you shouldn’t be sailing the victory.

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Just now, Vile Executioner said:

If you lose a victory to a prince then you shouldn’t be sailing the victory.

lol, not my point, but "touché"

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5 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I would like to know how many ships historically were boarded by another ship early on in a battle with only a few shots fired and the larger crewed ships company fully intact

In truth the crew conducting the boarding didn't have to beat the bigger numbers entirely, just defeat the weather deck and castles :). There's no way the other ship going to sail without a place from where to control the rigs ;), hence it is defeated and out of battle.

Say a 1st rate has 1200 crew. 900 might be in the gun decks, rest 300 up top ready for action and handling rigging. Those would fight a boarding action, not 1200.

 

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Its a skill (awareness) to not be near enemies when going through the wind to avoid boarding. Determinded Defender just provides braindead safety for bad gameplay, especially for big ships which are too strong already anyway..

@admin I question your historical points about DD based on the example of Victory vs Detourable. Your statement:

Just like brave Redoutable was able to fend off all boarding attempts from HMS Victory, you, if you have enough crew, can avoid boarding attempts if you have this perk.

"The British superiority in battle was based on gunnery tactics and its ships were able to fire more accurate shots than the enemies. The French and Spanish had much more soldiers on their ships so it was in the British interest to have a battle based on gunnery. When a boarding party threatened, this showed British vulnerability."

Detourable tried to board Victory actually, but got raked and lost 200 - 300 crew while trying. It was hard to board the Victory because it had more decks than the Detourable, which is already in the boarding minigame integrated.

"The French crew were about to board Victory when Temeraire intervened, firing on the exposed French crew at point blank range, killing or wounding 200 men, including Lucas and Dupotet, struck by a bullet to the knee,[23] who nevertheless remained at their stations.[22] The crew of Redoutable rushed to man her artillery and engage Temeraire with her starboard battery,[26] Soon, Tonnant took a position at stern of Redoutable,[22] which thus found herself fired upon from three larger ships. In the ensuing cannonade, Redoutable lost most of her artillery, including two guns that burst, killing several gunners.[22] Temeraire hailed for Redoutable to surrender"

https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/history-of-war/4-insane-military-tactics/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Redoutable_(1791)

 

TLDR

DD is bs, from gameplay perspective and from historic aspects.

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